ranged to-hit is borked

[katz]

a friend of mine brought this other thread to my attention, and reading that thread revealed ranged to-hit seems to be borked. it seems to be classifying all hits 8 or lower as a grazing hit, regardless of how high your to-hit actually is.

i did some testing of my own, and what little i did backs it up:

(Combat): You attack Attack Dog. You roll a 6 (+39): you grazing hit! (ranged)
(Combat): You attack Attack Dog. You roll a 5 (+49): you grazing hit! (ranged)
(Combat): You attack Attack Dog. You roll a 10(+44): you hit! (ranged)

those were the only actual hits i saved, but i did notice the cutoff was between 8 and 9. i found it interesting that the hit for 10+44 (for a total of 54) hit, while the 5+49 (for a total of 54) was a graze. then i swapped to melee.

(Combat): You attack Attack Dog. You roll a 2 (+39): you hit! (melee)

definitely a disparity. definitely something wrong.
(all testing done with a 20th level bard vs CR22 dogs in Lords of Dust epic normal)

this is a HUGE issue to anyone who uses ranged at all, and even worse to anyone who focuses on it... ESPECIALLY those who rely on random damage weapons (like litII) which won't proc their damage on a graze.

this is more game-breaking for a ranged character than the previous issue i commented on (the fort bug) because for this one, there IS no work-around.

i know you guys are really busy with the patches, but "seen by a dev" post here would be VERY much appreciated in this matter

i have bug reported this issue

[Glenalth]

It is terribad.

The boosts to-hit on Shiradi Champion are helping offset it a bit, but it's still bad.

[RobbinB]

It is terribad.

The boosts to-hit on Shiradi Champion are helping offset it a bit, but it's still bad.

Am I missing something? My interpretation of op:

10 (+44) and 5 (+49) are both the same attack roll - 54. But in the example the 10 was a hit while the 5 was a miss. That is the proof that range is borked, rolls below 9 seem to always be grazes, even if they should be hitting based on total attack roll. (And lower rolls for melee are hits.) I too have found this on my artificer; it seems ranged attack rolls below 10 are always grazing regardless of how I buff my toon.

So boosting your hit through buffs will not be helpful.

Given the labelling of ranged as gimped even pre-U14, I think this is a serious issue.

[Coldin]

Am I missing something? My interpretation of op:

10 (+44) and 5 (+49) are both the same attack roll - 54. But in the example the 10 was a hit while the 5 was a miss. That is the proof that range is borked, rolls below 9 seem to always be grazes, even if they should be hitting based on total attack roll. (And lower rolls for melee are hits.) I too have found this on my artificer; it seems ranged attack rolls below 10 are always grazing regardless of how I buff my toon.

So boosting your hit through buffs will not be helpful.

Given the labelling of ranged as gimped even pre-U14, I think this is a serious issue.

The biggest issue, is that a lower roll with a melee attack was a hit.

There's a big problem when a 40 attack is a graze with bows, but a hit with swords.

[Kaisoni]

10 (+44) and 5 (+49) are both the same attack roll - 54. But in the example the 10 was a hit while the 5 was a miss. That is the proof that range is borked

They're not both the same to-hit anymore ^^; it's a to-hit of 44, and a to-hit of 49. The die is just being rolled to find out if they hit based on the percentage of those numbers getting a hit against the opponent's AC which is worked out in a formula, it doesn't add to the to-hit.

It's just that melee attacks are hitting on far lower die rolls than ranged even with the same attack bonus that says something is very wrong.

[katz]

They're not both the same to-hit anymore ^^; it's a to-hit of 44, and a to-hit of 49. The die is just being rolled to find out if they hit based on the percentage of those numbers getting a hit against the opponent's AC which is worked out in a formula, it doesn't add to the to-hit.

It's just that melee attacks are hitting on far lower die rolls than ranged even with the same attack bonus that says something is very wrong.

so... my math and search-fu is weak, but are you trying to say that the fundamental calculation is no longer (roll) + (to-hit) = (your number to try to beat their AC?) that it used to be? i know things have changed, but perhaps i did not realize the entire scope

even if this is the case... why is EVERYONE reporting the SAME cutoff at a roll of 8. above it, you hit (if your to-hit is high enough of course) and below it, you miss

and even IF that is the case that the fundamental easy to understand calculation has been replaced... the ranged is STILL clearly borked because i got a graze on 5 (+39) with ranged, and a hit with a 2 (+39) with melee.

[katz]

It is terribad.

The boosts to-hit on Shiradi Champion are helping offset it a bit, but it's still bad.

if my observations hold true, no boost will help this error.

i did note one roll of 9 (+31) which was a graze... i assume that one was because my to-hit was just too low... i buffed and never saw another graze on a 9... but plenty on 8 and below.

i find it extremely telling that two rolls with the exact same to-hit number (54) did not yield the same results. this means something is artificially altering the outcome.. somehow.

and my last hit shows that 2 (+39) (for a total of 41) is enough to-hit to land a solid blow, not a graze

[Glenalth]

if my observations hold true, no boost will help this error.

While I wasn't doing any testing of the issue, I was certainly getting far less grazes with the +12 or so to hit with Shiradi than I am now with Fury.

[Kinerd]

i know you guys are really busy with the patches, but "seen by a dev" post here would be VERY much appreciated in this matter

Bears repeating.

However, I am not hopeful.

[donblas]

I've also noticed that I now start shooting at the ceiling if anything gets between me and my target, like used to happen before I got precise shot and improved precise shot. Even happens if something (like a party member) gets between me (the viewer) and my toon.

[blerkington]

I've also noticed that I now start shooting at the ceiling if anything gets between me and my target, like used to happen before I got precise shot and improved precise shot. Even happens if something (like a party member) gets between me (the viewer) and my toon.

Hi,

I'm so happy that these recent problems are being widely reported now. Of course, I'll be even happier when (if?) it gets fixed.

To support donblas' post, I've been noticing the same thing with shots into the ceiling. Would really like to return to my arrows going to the reticule, if I didn't have anything hard-targetted.

Thanks.

[RandomKeypress]

I'm seeing this too and it's really messing up my main. I'm reliant on radiance going off so that my rogue can solo backstab. The confirm critical is not getting given anywhere as much, so the mobs aren't being blinded so I'm only getting backstab when improved deception procs.

[Vargouille]

We'll look into this. It's not entirely clear what's going on. I personally saw myself hitting with a crossbow when rolling a 2 sometimes in the past 24 hours (with live characters).

We did change grazing hits to happen on any roll of 2+ when you would normally miss, both for melee and ranged combat.

In live-fire situations, there may be penalties to enemies that make you hit with a roll you missed on previously (Sunder, etc.), or possibly other effects (Precision). Regardless, the combat formula should essentially be the same for both melee and ranged, so if that's not true or if the combat log feedback isn't reflecting that properly, there may be a bug there.

[NexEverto]

We'll look into this. It's not entirely clear what's going on. I personally saw myself hitting with a crossbow when rolling a 2 sometimes in the past 24 hours (with live characters).

We did change grazing hits to happen on any roll of 2+ when you would normally miss, both for melee and ranged combat.

In live-fire situations, there may be penalties to enemies that make you hit with a roll you missed on previously (Sunder, etc.), or possibly other effects (Precision). Regardless, the combat formula should essentially be the same for both melee and ranged, so if that's not true or if the combat log feedback isn't reflecting that properly, there may be a bug there.

Its very, very broken at the moment. Unless Ranged Combat has lost its Attack Sequences, there's also something wrong there. My Combat Log and Dice will sit showing me +55 Attack Modifier for every attack I make, and against 'high' AC Mobs I'll graze on anything 2 - 8. I've been testing this in Level 20 Buying Time on Devashta, and a 63 should be more than enough to hit her unless her AC against Ranged Attack has been upped hugely, because I can hit her with my Scimitars no issue with a lower Attack Bonus.

I can provide screen shots and all that, though I haven't bug reported this in game because, well, you know... And if you don't, see the links in my signature.

[Isolani]

Its very, very broken at the moment. Unless Ranged Combat has lost its Attack Sequences, there's also something wrong there. My Combat Log and Dice will sit showing me +55 Attack Modifier for every attack I make, and against 'high' AC Mobs I'll graze on anything 2 - 8. I've been testing this in Level 20 Buying Time on Devashta, and a 63 should be more than enough to hit her unless her AC against Ranged Attack has been upped hugely, because I can hit her with my Scimitars no issue with a lower Attack Bonus.

I can provide screen shots and all that, though I haven't bug reported this in game because, well, you know... And if you don't, see the links in my signature.

Yeah, whatever is going on doesn't impact melee it seems. My gimpy rogue hardly ever misses in melee even when I'm not sneak attacking, and my ranged character with about +12 to hit more than the rogue grazes all the time instead of hits.

[sephiroth1084]

We'll look into this. It's not entirely clear what's going on. I personally saw myself hitting with a crossbow when rolling a 2 sometimes in the past 24 hours (with live characters).

We did change grazing hits to happen on any roll of 2+ when you would normally miss, both for melee and ranged combat.

In live-fire situations, there may be penalties to enemies that make you hit with a roll you missed on previously (Sunder, etc.), or possibly other effects (Precision). Regardless, the combat formula should essentially be the same for both melee and ranged, so if that's not true or if the combat log feedback isn't reflecting that properly, there may be a bug there.

Well, I noticed that my monkcher at level 7 running Delera's on elite was missing a lot when using a +3 bow and a 26 Wis (centered) while he was hitting more often when I swapped to +1 handwraps using a 14 Str. I also have Precision on all the time...something definitely wrong here.

[Coldin]

We'll look into this. It's not entirely clear what's going on. I personally saw myself hitting with a crossbow when rolling a 2 sometimes in the past 24 hours (with live characters).

We did change grazing hits to happen on any roll of 2+ when you would normally miss, both for melee and ranged combat.

In live-fire situations, there may be penalties to enemies that make you hit with a roll you missed on previously (Sunder, etc.), or possibly other effects (Precision). Regardless, the combat formula should essentially be the same for both melee and ranged, so if that's not true or if the combat log feedback isn't reflecting that properly, there may be a bug there.

Grazing hits aren't the issue I believe. It's the actual calculation of normal hits, the ones that deal full damage.

[katz]

We'll look into this. It's not entirely clear what's going on. I personally saw myself hitting with a crossbow when rolling a 2 sometimes in the past 24 hours (with live characters).

We did change grazing hits to happen on any roll of 2+ when you would normally miss, both for melee and ranged combat.

thank you for the prompt acknowledgement. to be totally clear, the issue is not hitting or missing, the issue is the breakpoint at which a grazing hit becomes a full-fledged solid strike on a target. i have no idea how the system works, but you saying that you changed combat so you graze on any hit of 2+ if you don't have the to-hit to actually.. hit... made me wonder... is it possible the calculation for this new code is slightly off for ranged... because it seems that ranged is artificially limited to graze on any hit 8 or below, regardless of actual to-hit value.

In live-fire situations, there may be penalties to enemies that make you hit with a roll you missed on previously (Sunder, etc.), or possibly other effects (Precision). Regardless, the combat formula should essentially be the same for both melee and ranged, so if that's not true or if the combat log feedback isn't reflecting that properly, there may be a bug there.

for what it's worth, when i did my testing, i was solo in the zone, no pets, no hires. i do not have precision, i did not sunder. the only thing i did was sing inspire courage to raise my to-hit with a bow. (i got a graze on a 9, so i figured +31 was a mite low to test in an epic with. )

[Gridpain]

We'll look into this. It's not entirely clear what's going on. I personally saw myself hitting with a crossbow when rolling a 2 sometimes in the past 24 hours (with live characters).

We did change grazing hits to happen on any roll of 2+ when you would normally miss, both for melee and ranged combat.

In live-fire situations, there may be penalties to enemies that make you hit with a roll you missed on previously (Sunder, etc.), or possibly other effects (Precision). Regardless, the combat formula should essentially be the same for both melee and ranged, so if that's not true or if the combat log feedback isn't reflecting that properly, there may be a bug there.

Is it the same for mob hitting us ? do they grazing hit for 2-X instead of miss ?

[Vargouille]

Is it the same for mob hitting us ? do they grazing hit for 2-X instead of miss ?

No. Grazing hits from monster attacks should be approximately the same as ever, with the caveat that there's new epic difficulty levels, and I believe that's what determines how often monsters grazing hit.