How gimp will I be...

[Myrrae]

So, my husband and I are finally setting up for our first TR. He's going to try paladin to see if he likes it plus free healing amp PL won't hurt. I want sorc lives (wizard now) to ultimately go evoker FvS. We're not exactly flower sniffers, but given that these are first characters we don't know the quests that well, so we're not really zerging through either.

Goals:
1) Get to 20 without hating the character (can be slower/less self sufficient than my PM but preferable not sucktastic)
2) One of us able to handle traps (see point above about not really knowing the quests) with assistance from ddo wiki.
3) Get a feel for fleshie sorc (as opposed to WF self healing)

So, given that Paladin is seriously MAD I'm the designated trapper (I'm hoping next life we can skip that!)

So, given that the TR Sorc 14/Rogue 1/5 other thread seems to be ok with only 14 levels of sorc, I was thinking of a Sorc/Rogue/Paladin combo. Alternatively I could just go 1 rogue and try to squeeze everything in (I have a few +13 search/disable items, but no exceptional int skills etc. to boost them). Guild level is only 23 so no great airship buffs - although working on it. I've also eaten a +3 supreme tome, so that in mind... here's the build I was thinking of:

Character Generated Using: DDO Character Generator
Direct Link to Build: http://www.ddochargen.com/home.aspx?build=23110

Sorcerer 16 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2
Female Human - Lawful Good
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PAST LIVES SELECTED:
Wizard (1)
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LEVEL 1
Race Selected: Female Human
Alignment Selected: Lawful Good
Class Selected: Rogue (Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: STR: 10, CON: 15, INT: 15, CHA: 18
Skills Ranks Raised: Balance +4 (4), Bluff +3 (3),
Concentration +2 (2), Disable Device +4 (4), Haggle +4 (4),
Jump +4 (4), Move Silently +4 (4), Open Lock +4 (4),
Search +4 (4), Spot +4 (4), Tumble +1 (1), UMD +4 (4)
Feats Selected: Toughness, Augment Summoning
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LEVEL 2:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Rogue 1 / Sorcerer 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (3), Disable Device +1 (5),
Search +1 (5)
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LEVEL 3:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 2 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (4), Disable Device +1 (6),
Search +1 (6)
Feats Selected: Past Life (Arcane Initiate)
Tomes Applied: STR: +1, DEX: +1, CON: +1, INT: +1,
WIS: +1, CHA: +1
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LEVEL 4:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 3 / Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 20
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (6), Disable Device +1 (7),
Search +1 (7)
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LEVEL 5:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 4 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +2 (8), Disable Device +1 (8),
Search +1 (8)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 6:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 5 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (9), Disable Device +1 (9),
Search +1 (9), UMD +0.5 (4.5)
Feats Selected: Maximize Spell
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LEVEL 7:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 6 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (10),
Disable Device +1 (10), Search +1 (10), UMD +0.5 (5)
Tomes Applied: STR: +2, DEX: +2, CON: +2, INT: +2,
WIS: +2, CHA: +2
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LEVEL 8:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 7 / Rogue 1)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 22
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (11),
Disable Device +1 (11), Search +1 (11), UMD +0.5 (5.5)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 9:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 8 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (12),
Disable Device +1 (12), Search +1 (12), UMD +0.5 (6)
Feats Selected: Empower Spell
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LEVEL 10:
Class Selected: Paladin (Sorcerer 8 / Paladin 1 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (13),
Disable Device +1 (13), Search +1 (13), UMD +0.5 (6.5)
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LEVEL 11:
Class Selected: Paladin (Sorcerer 8 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 1)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (14),
Disable Device +1 (14), Search +1 (14), UMD +0.5 (7)
Tomes Applied: STR: +3, DEX: +3, CON: +3, INT: +3,
WIS: +3, CHA: +3
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LEVEL 12:
Class Selected: Rogue (Sorcerer 8 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 24
Skills Ranks Raised: Disable Device +1 (15),
Open Lock +3 (7), Search +1 (15), UMD +8 (15)
Feats Selected: Quicken Spell
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LEVEL 13:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 9 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (15),
Disable Device +1 (16), Search +1 (16), UMD +1 (16)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 14:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 10 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (16),
Disable Device +1 (17), Search +1 (17), UMD +1 (17)
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LEVEL 15:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 11 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (17),
Disable Device +1 (18), Search +1 (18), UMD +1 (18)
Feats Selected: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
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LEVEL 16:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 12 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 25
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (18),
Disable Device +1 (19), Search +1 (19), UMD +1 (19)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 17:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 13 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (19),
Disable Device +1 (20), Search +1 (20), UMD +1 (20)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 18:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 14 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (20),
Disable Device +1 (21), Search +1 (21), UMD +1 (21)
Feats Selected: Heighten Spell
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LEVEL 19:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 15 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2)
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (21),
Disable Device +1 (22), Search +1 (22), UMD +1 (22)
________________________________________________________________

LEVEL 20:
Class Selected: Sorcerer (Sorcerer 16 / Paladin 2 / Rogue 2)
Abilities Raised: CHA: 26
Skills Ranks Raised: Concentration +1 (22),
Disable Device +1 (23), Search +1 (23), UMD +1 (23)
Stats at End of Level 20:
HP:218 SP:1460 AC:11 FORT:21 REFL:17 WILL:19 BAB:+11/+11/+16/+21
STR:13(+1) DEX:11(0) CON:18(+4) INT:18(+4) WIS:11(0) CHA:26(+8)
Balance:4, Bluff:11, Concentration:26, Diplomacy:8,
Disable Device:27, Haggle:12, Heal:0, Hide:0, Intimidate:8,
Jump:5, Listen:0, Move Silently:4, Open Lock:7, Perform: n/a,
Repair:4, Search:27, Spot:4, Swim:1, Tumble:1, UMD:31

Went with 15 con 15 int due to the +3 tome. Hopefully if I'm not planning on raids etc. not having the extra 1 con won't be too noticeable.

Also somewhat up in the air on the human bonus feat. I thought about an extra toughness or something, but nothing really jumped out at me given that you can't really take spell casting feats.

Listed SF: Conjuration just because I'm thinking I'll be earth spec by then, but I'll probably play that one by ear. Would start out Fire savant with acid backup, then switch somewhere to Earth.

I ended up adding the two paladin because evasion is kind of pointless if you don't make the save. But I might be able to make just 1 rogue level work with enough gear, so again open to suggestion.

I postponed some UMD until later as it doesn't seem as useful at lower levels, although I may adjust a little depending on how easily I'm able to not blow up traps.

Will this be too gimp to enjoy, or will I manage to get by on a second life without hating... my second life?

[darkvirus]

a few suggestions.

Go half elf if you have it and take pally dilettante feat. You gain every thing you would from pally.

I wouldnt go 16 sorc because you loose out on level 9 spells.

Augment Summoning is good for lower levels but i would swap it around 16.

If you can find a way to get one more pount into UMD you can uses heal scrolls at 100% without changing gear.


If your husband is going to twf on his pally he may want to take the 2 rogue levels. He will have the pally save plus a higher dex for better saves without lossing much.

[fuzzywolf]

I disagree on the paladin dilly. Two levels of paladin (and no more than two) lets you add your full cha modifier to your saves, which will be substantial. You also get paladin charisma I and an enhancement for +3 concentration to your aura of good.

I found augment summoning to be useful at low levels but to taper off around 10-12. A second toughness to replace it is a solid choice, as it will double the effect of your toughness enhancements as well. Give your pally partner more time to LoH to you!

I wouldn't think this build is gimp at all. You'll have great survivability with hps and saves any caster would envy. 16 sorc gets you black dragon bolt if you're going earth or polar ray if you're going water -- both are great damage spells.

[Myrrae]

Thanks for the feedback! I thought about paladin dilly, but it's only +5 to your saves max and with the low reflex save from sorc, I don't know that I'd buy much. I think at that point I'd be better off just going 19/1 (which I'm still considering) and not going for evasion at all. I think I'd like to have evasion just because I'm not that skilled at trap hopping yet.

I agree that augment summoning is a good candidate for a swap at later levels. I actually considered the Least Dragonmark of Sentinels for the free shield of faith, but I'm not sure which will be more useful. In theory now that AC matters the dragonmark will be a lot better than it was before U14 but I don't really know what to expect in benefit from Augment summons anyway.

[conanj77]

VIP? use a rogue hireling, get traps, dismiss.

Not vip?
get a rogue friend?
18sorc/2rogue, high Cha, moderate int & con, take insightful reflexes. If you plan on using DC'less spells, max con, charisma 17, int 15 or something, then take Force of personality and insightful reflexes, if Helf Paladin Dillatante your set.

IDK if any of the above will work, just some ideas!

[Jaid314]

I disagree on the paladin dilly. Two levels of paladin (and no more than two) lets you add your full cha modifier to your saves, which will be substantial. You also get paladin charisma I and an enhancement for +3 concentration to your aura of good.

I found augment summoning to be useful at low levels but to taper off around 10-12. A second toughness to replace it is a solid choice, as it will double the effect of your toughness enhancements as well. Give your pally partner more time to LoH to you!

I wouldn't think this build is gimp at all. You'll have great survivability with hps and saves any caster would envy. 16 sorc gets you black dragon bolt if you're going earth or polar ray if you're going water -- both are great damage spells.

this is a mixture of accurate and not so accurate information. i shall do my best to correct what i have found to be inaccurate.

- two paladin levels does give you the save bonus (also lay on hands for a small emergency heal, if i'm not mistaken). it does give you paladin charisma I, but this does not stack with sorcerer charisma enhancements, so who cares. it also offers easy use of paladin wands, including cures... so yeah, delaying investment in UMD for a while is not a bad plan.

- a second toughness is not a terrible choice. it will not double your enhancements, however. the usual other choice would be spell pen, since you'll likely have a hard time breaching it what with your 4 level splash. if you do this, i might even suggest ditching quicken spell to add in the greater spell pen feat, which will let you get to at least where a sorc with neither feat is. alternately, you could trade for a pair of dragonmarks instead of a pair of spell pen feats; orien offers expeditious retreat (saving a level 1 slot is not a huge deal, but not terrible either; you could, for example, take jump, shield, hypnotism for debuffs, and ray of enfeeblement for non-named beholders. or tumble, or merfolks, depending on what you like) and dimension door (an extra level 4 spell slot *is* a huge deal, and you can't reliably scroll it because scrolls are so rare).

- you will have great survivability if you play it right. your HP won't be significantly more than most casters, however. you will get polar ray or black dragon bolt, but not until you're character level 20 and ready to TR again anyways, so it's not a big deal.

i think you'll be fine with that, it probably won't be as powerful as a full sorcerer, but will make you a fair bit tougher.

[darkvirus]

pally pros:

Divine grace +9 to saves (from the build i think you had a 28 )
Aura of good +1 to ac and saves (pointless near any pally higher then you)
Lay on hands (once per rest 108hp)


Cons to taking 2 levels of pally
Chr ench doesnt stack
loss level 9 spells
lower spell dc
give up any level 6 element ench

Paladin Dilettante
+ 5 to saves
+ 1 chr(it stacks)
+2 to dcs (two more levels of sorc)
225 more sp just for the levels not counting Mental Toughness or chr mod.
with Improved Mental Toughness and a 28 chr 18 sorc would get 40ish more sp


Mark of Sentinel is kind of pointless for shield of faith you can use pots or wands

[Miow]

Honestly once you start playing a sorc that is not wf you will wish by the time you hit 20 or before then that you were a wf.

[Phidius]

...
Paladin Dilettante
+ 5 to saves
+ 1 chr(it stacks)
...

With Sorc Charisma III? If so, it's a bug - I wouldn't count on it remaining. According to the DDO Wiki, it counts as a class enhancement.

...
+2 to dcs (two more levels of sorc)
...

+2 to Spell Pen, yes. Only adds +1 to all DCs if the build includes heighten - otherwise, only the level 9 spells get the extra DC.

Op: I'm not a fan of splashing on a sorc. With the fewer and later spell slots and lack of synergy with rogue, I just don't recommend it.

If you're worried about traps, go pure WF and pile on the HP.

[Loromir]

Honestly once you start playing a sorc that is not wf you will wish by the time you hit 20 or before then that you were a wf.

I have a lvl 20 Drow Sorc and have never had one regret for passing up WF. SOOOO......flawed theory there!!!!

[Miow]

I have a lvl 20 Drow Sorc and have never had one regret for passing up WF. SOOOO......flawed theory there!!!!

Have you played a wf sorc before?

And to add my sorc was human his first life, i'm just going by experience here.

[Loromir]

Have you played a wf sorc before?

And to add my sorc was human his first life, i'm just going by experience here.

WF Wiz....Yes.


To be fair...I understand the logic behind playing WF Sorc or Wiz, but I just detest WF. A Fleshy Sorc with UMD can self heal just fine.

[Myrrae]

I'm planning on 3 sorc lives, and I may very well end up WF in the next one. I just figure if WF is that much better, then better to get the fleshy experiment out of the way earlier, when it's less xp to level and then I can compare how much better it is.

I probably won't bother with trap skills next life either, but we're still in the 'learning' stage and if we're going to go slow anyway, might as well get the xp from disable, plus learn how to jump over some of the traps while I've got working evasion.

And true on the Shield of Faith potions vs Mark of Sentinel - Augment Summons just didn't seem that compelling and I was trying to look for alternatives. Still, swapping Augment Summons to toughness at 12 or so will still work!

I was torn on splashing - generally I'm not drawn to splashes because I like 9th level spells. But if I'm not going pure, then I wouldn't really get 9th level spells anyway since I'd be going for a new TR as soon as I got it. 19/1 is still on the table depending on how things go as I level up, but as long as I'm not too gimp to make it to 20 and TR I will consider it ... a build experiment. Plus... even if I were charging through traps and self healing as a WF... my hubby's soulstone could get heavy

[Therigar]

I do not know if you have already made the jump into the TR character. If you have not then I would strongly encourage you NOT to try the rogue with sorcerer. Rogue works well with wizard but the stat demands are usually problematic for sorcerers.

You want two stats if you are not warforged -- Charisma and Constitution. Nothing else matters. Diverting skill points into INT (which is the ONLY stat you really need for rogue) dilutes those other stats.

Ten or even 12 INT (if you were to go drow for example) IS enough for rogue if you have the gear laid up. Otherwise, I think you will be frustrated with the rogue splash.

Keep in mind that at higher levels trap boxes are beyond the traps. This means you should desire a high reflex save and also evasion if possible. A 1 level splash is next to useless. If you really feel you have to splash rogue then treat it as you would a wizard/rogue character with 2 rogue levels and 18 sorcerer levels. Because you never take the last two levels (parking at 18 to maximize XP opportunities) that is effectively a 2/16 character.

[Myrrae]

I do not know if you have already made the jump into the TR character. If you have not then I would strongly encourage you NOT to try the rogue with sorcerer. Rogue works well with wizard but the stat demands are usually problematic for sorcerers.

You want two stats if you are not warforged -- Charisma and Constitution. Nothing else matters. Diverting skill points into INT (which is the ONLY stat you really need for rogue) dilutes those other stats.

Ten or even 12 INT (if you were to go drow for example) IS enough for rogue if you have the gear laid up. Otherwise, I think you will be frustrated with the rogue splash.

Keep in mind that at higher levels trap boxes are beyond the traps. This means you should desire a high reflex save and also evasion if possible. A 1 level splash is next to useless. If you really feel you have to splash rogue then treat it as you would a wizard/rogue character with 2 rogue levels and 18 sorcerer levels. Because you never take the last two levels (parking at 18 to maximize XP opportunities) that is effectively a 2/16 character.

I agree that just the trap skills + UMD are kind of sketchy for the 19/1 split. However, given how utterly lacking the reflex save would be with just the 2 rogue levels, I'm not sure the second would be worth anything. Thinking of it as an 18th level char rather than 20 is another reason I'm not AS concerned about splashing. The evasion is why I threw the two levels of paladin in there. I know I'm not going to be the uber nuker I'd be as pure sorc, so if I'm in for a penny... in for a pound. I also did take some inspiration from the 14/1/5 TR zerg build, as it seems the owner considered it highly effective for TR leveling.

As for the stats, do I really NEED 18 con just for a leveling build? I might explode from time to time, but that happens to me just from inexperience, so I'm kind of prepared for it. (Not looking forward to the bugged WW acid tunnels though!)

[Therigar]

IMO the people posting their TR zerg builds are people with lots of experience at TRing. I think it is a mistake to take too much from what they post unless you're as prepared as they are to make the TR zerg runs.

Do you really need an 18 CON. No. But that is a slightly different question than asking what stats does a build really need. A sorcerer really only needs two stats. That being said, maxing CON and CHA is the reasonable thing to do.

When you splash you not only weaken the primary class by reducing its ability to cast spells but also weaken the primary class by siphoning off skill points from the only stats that the build really needs. I just think that it is a mistake to waste the build points and to multiclass rogue with a class that offers so little synergy.

IMO the earlier poster has it spot on. If you need a rogue either advertise for one with an LFM or hire one. You don't have to be VIP to use gold seal contracts. Get one, use it, put it in the bank if there's any time left on the contract until it is needed again.

As far as that goes, take a look at some of the "efficient" TR xp lists. Not many of the quests include getting the trap bonus. So the demand for rogue isn't very high to start with. In the list I have (copied from the forums) there are only 4 quests that include the disabling bonuses as part of the quest plan.

They are all big XP quests that are frequented by TR groups. IOW you should be able to find a rogue who wants to go along.

IMO you are best simply going pure sorcerer. If you absolutely are determined to splash rogue you take 2 levels, you sacrifice minimally on either CON or CHA (or a point on both depending on your previous tome usage) and you pump it all into INT. You then use Insightful Reflexes for your reflex saves with a reasonably high INT score. (This will probably be 15. A +3 tome and +6 item gets you to 24. Not great but it should be adequate for most of your needs. Add a reflex save item, greater heroism, etc. to get a boost if you need it.)

[Myrrae]

I get what you're saying, and I do agree that pure sorcerer is a substantially better character. Part of what I was trying to figure out was how MUCH better.

All that aside, I was thinking that artificer actually had better synergy than rogue - especially if not going for evasion. You get the trap skills, Arcane Lore, and can take your bonus feat as a caster feat, +2 UMD on scrolling. Still can't stand IN the trap to disarm it, but overall I wasn't really expecting to manage that anyway...

[Therigar]

You are correct. If only going for the ability to disable traps then artificer is a better choice than rogue for the reasons you indicate. Be aware that you'll have fewer skill points with the artificer level. However, the potential synergy is better.