Divine and solar phoenix post motu

[blametroi]

Any feedback on how these builds are working post u14? I've got a monk that needs a paly life.

[Jaid314]

i would imagine mostly like before, except that healing and healing amp are both slightly borked.

which is to say... damage probably still sucks royally. they still probably get their health back from combat very easily. they're probably still more or less a flavor build (and yes, having that amount of heal amp is in fact excessive and not truly useful).

[blametroi]

It's a pass thru life for me, so flavor is fine. I know builds for speed leveling, these look interesting to play but nothing I'd keep.

[WielderofGigantus]

i would imagine mostly like before, except that healing and healing amp are both slightly borked.

Huh? I know healing is borked because enhancements aren't giving out the proper amount of spell power, but how is healing amp borked? I haven't noticed any changes on my solar phoenix. I was getting 350% healing amp before U14 and I'm still getting 350% after U14.

And yes, the DPS is likely poorer compared to other classes. But then again, my survivability is extremely high.

Actually, my survivability has actually increased with U14, with the reintroduction of Dodge.

[Xezno]

Havent tried the epic destinies yet, but i think you can twist in some quite powerful healing abilities that gets very nice with heal amp.

Like the one from exatled angel: 10d2 heals every 2 seconds for 8 seconds - which becomes something like 50hp ticks with a 350% heal amp.

[whomhead]

I don't have a character as the divine phoenix right now, so I can't say from direct experience, but I would have to guess that they will play quite similarly to how they used to during the heroic levels. Survivability should be quite a bit higher during the 1-19 period, and DPS likely wont have changed too much. They will be easily able to solo elite content, and still contribute very well to groups/raids when the time arises.

Once you get to epic levels, I would think the DPS will increased dramatically as well, significantly narrowing the gap between it and pure monks. Most of the stuff in GMoF would be very nice on a divine phoenix. Especially since the DP already is in fire stance which gets the most extra damage of all the stances from the EpiDes. Fury of the Wild is another good choice, I would think.

Also, don't listen to the folks who say ignorant things about how horrible the damage is. Sure, it isn't the equivalent of a raging barb, but it is a heck of a lot better than the pedantic min/maxers on the forums would have you believe.

[Jaid314]

Huh? I know healing is borked because enhancements aren't giving out the proper amount of spell power, but how is healing amp borked? I haven't noticed any changes on my solar phoenix. I was getting 350% healing amp before U14 and I'm still getting 350% after U14.

And yes, the DPS is likely poorer compared to other classes. But then again, my survivability is extremely high.

Actually, my survivability has actually increased with U14, with the reintroduction of Dodge.

you might be one of the few then. last i heard, most people were having problems with stacking of heal amp. healer's friend for WF seems to be a particular problem, but i've heard of others having problems too.

and yes, the survivability on a solar phoenix is really high. and the damage is still really really low. that's just the nature of the beast. you invest in lots of high survivability options, and not very many high DPS options. i'm not saying don't play it. i'm saying that the inherent result of choosing a build so focused on defense is that you lose a lot of offense.

if that doesn't bother you as a player, go nuts. who am i to tell you how you should have your fun?

but that doesn't mean i shouldn't tell people who choose these builds that they're going to have low DPS. they deserve to know the drawbacks of the build as well as the benefits.

[whomhead]

but that doesn't mean i shouldn't tell people who choose these builds that they're going to have low DPS. they deserve to know the drawbacks of the build as well as the benefits.

No one can stop you from telling people whatever you like. However, I assume that you haven't actually played one of these builds? I, of course, am particularly thinking of the divine phoenix here. If it is in fact the case that you haven't played one, then your strong warnings about how the DPS will "royally suck" and/or "be really really low," are not worth a darn thing because you wouldn't actually have any clue about the DPS.

I on the other hand have actually played the DP, and can say from experience that the DPS is simply not as bad as you make it out to be. And I have gotten unsolicited messages from many other players who say the same thing. So unless you do have first-hand experience (and I apologize if you have actually played tried one out), then you could at least temper down your rhetoric a bit, because you are selling the build short in an inaccurate way.

[Jaid314]

*sigh*

seriously?

every paladin i've spoken to who has either a fighter, a barbarian, or a rogue, and the vast majority of forum discussion on paladin DPS, tells me that paladin DPS is simply not that great. it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a build with 15+ paladin levels is not going to have impressive DPS.

you know how many forum posts i've seen in the past 6 months where people said "hey, paladin DPS is actually quite good"? i'll give you a couple of hints: it starts with 'z' and ends with 'ero'.

now, on the other hand, how many posts have i heard from people who have multiple melee classes of various sorts (and from guildies who have the same, and from my own relatively limited experience playing paladins) stating very clearly that their DPS is quite low? huh. seems like those come up quite frequently. i haven't been tracking specific numbers, but up until U14 (at which point most people found bigger issues to complain about, i suspect), i would be surprised if i didn't hear, read, or observe at least once per week someone being extremely disappointed in their paladin DPS vs their fighter/barbarian/rogue dps.

and for the record, having substantially lower dps than a primarily dps-focused build *does* mean your DPS is going to be terrible. if your DPS was good, it would be in the same range as a DPS-focused class. that's what good DPS means.

low melee DPS works on favored souls or bards because they bring a ton of other stuff to play with, for both themselves and the group. it doesn't work out so well for paladins because paladins bring powerful self-healing, and not an awful lot beyond that. choosing the paladin PrE which is worst for DPS (hunter of the dead) certainly does not help.

the various phoenix builds have amazing self-sufficiency. they can survive almost anything, and spend very few resources doing it. the trade-off is that their DPS is not very good. you can pretend that their DPS is amazing all you want, but frankly, being far behind what a max-DPS build barbarian can do is the very definition of "not very good", because that barbarian is essentially the definition of "very good". if you are far below that, then no, your DPS is not good. it might be sufficient, and especially with the amount of self-sufficiency a phoenix build can have, you will probably be able to take on most challenges simply due to the fact that taking 50% longer to kill things (or more) doesn't drain your resources like it would for certain other classes. but that doesn't mean your DPS is actually good. it just means that you have ridiculous amounts of self-sufficiency, and that you can sustain said self-sufficiency without expending a lot of resources.

phoenix builds are all about survivability. and they do that very well. quite possibly better than any other build in the game, for all i know. the trade-off is that they lose out on a lot of other things. they're probably not far at all behind other paladins in DPS, and may even be equivalent to other paladins or ahead of them by a bit. but paladins are already behind the curve significantly in terms of DPS. there is a *reason* so many paladin players are choosing to build for raid tanking, and a large part of that is that their DPS is so much lower than other melee builds.

it's fine to enjoy your build. it's even fine to bring it in to raids and stuff; as a general rule, perfectly-optimised characters are not required for just about anything in DDO. but you do need to understand the limitations of your build. don't delude yourself into thinking that just because you once hit something for over a thousand damage with a smite, you've got awesome DPS.

[whomhead]

*sigh*

seriously?

Hmmm... my sentiments exactly.

don't delude yourself into thinking that [...] you've got awesome DPS.

Please show me where I said I have "awesome DPS." Go ahead, I'll wait....

...

.......

OK, so now that you haven't found it, please allow me to reiterate my point. You come into this thread - without ever having played one of the builds being discussed yourself - and flatly state that the DPS will "suck royally." And then you lay into me for saying things that I unequivocally did not say in any way, shape, or form. No, the DPS is not as high as the maximum DPS characters out there. But yes, it is higher than you are making it out to be.

All I ask is that if you don't have any clue what the build can do, then please don't make grandiose, unqualified and inaccurate statements. Thanks!

[Tobril]

Phoenix design is outdated.

DPS is really bad.
( I soloed multiple raids with mine, so be ready to back up
any "you don't know about them" arguments)


You'll get the same amp and survivability from a 12/6/2 monk/x/x
platform and have way higher DPS and versatility.

Modern crafting and other new equipment allow breaking from
the fists of light and quickened CSW.


The monk platform does well in challenges, 6-man epics, raids,
and can even tank if needed.


If a + heart is not something you want to invest in and this is really
just a paladin life then yes a phoenix design will get the job done.

I would recommend changing to wraps, however, as WSS was more
a design decision of the day based on equipment availability.

[blametroi]

I know I shouldn't be surprised if a question sparks inappropriate debate on forums

Anyway, thanks for the feedback and I'll give it a try. As far as DPS goes, combat in ddo is about killing them faster than thy kill you, and that survivability is what intrigues me about the build.

[Jaid314]

Please show me where I said I have "awesome DPS." Go ahead, I'll wait....

...

.......

OK, so now that you haven't found it, please allow me to reiterate my point. You come into this thread - without ever having played one of the builds being discussed yourself - and flatly state that the DPS will "suck royally." And then you lay into me for saying things that I unequivocally did not say in any way, shape, or form. No, the DPS is not as high as the maximum DPS characters out there. But yes, it is higher than you are making it out to be.

All I ask is that if you don't have any clue what the build can do, then please don't make grandiose, unqualified and inaccurate statements. Thanks!

ok, congratulations. you've managed to take one statement from my entire point and pretend like it was my entire point.

now perhaps you'd care to address the fact that i know and have spoken to a number of players who have made various melees, and without exception they conclude that paladin is terrible DPS compared to barbarians, rogues, or fighters (depending on which they have experience with).

as does the individual above this post.

as have numerous people who play paladins, publicly, on these very forums.

i personally have never played a phoenix build. i did want to, at one point. after research involving asking my friends and guildies who have paladins, i was advised to expect DPS to be very low. i don't need to personally experience it to know it, any more than i need to personally conduct the experiments that were used to determine the formula for gravitational attraction between 2 objects, or any more than i need to be able to mathematically prove that force = mass times acceleraton in order to use that formula.

i've done my research. the fact that you don't like my answer doesn't make it uninformed, nor does the fact that i personally have never played such a build.

[WielderofGigantus]

Truth be told, I'm not familiar with non-phoenix melee builds. I have exactly 3 main characters that I play: a caster, a healer, and my solar phoenix. I've tried playing other kinds of melees, but I keep running into the same problem: they require a healer to keep them going. I've tried a full on tank build (although I have not tried one after U14), but while that helps against physical damage, my dps suffered enormously compared to my solar phoenix.

So what combination of Monk 12/___ 6/___ 2 would you recommend to me, that has good saving throws, good self healing, good dps, and does not have fists of light play a factor in it's survivability?

Mnk 12/Clr 6/Pal 2?

[whomhead]

now perhaps you'd care to address the fact that i know and have spoken to a number of players who have made various melees, and without exception they conclude that paladin is terrible DPS compared to barbarians, rogues, or fighters (depending on which they have experience with).

I give up. How many times do I have to say that the build wont do as much damage as the full-dps specced builds before people stop trying to make that comparison? I know that the damage is less. I get it. But less damage does not mean terrible, really really bad, royally sucky, abysmal, or any of the other myriad things that people who haven't tried these builds say. (And no offense to Tobril above, but it sounds like he may be confused about the build I'm supporting, which is specifically built to use wraps - exactly like he recommends).

If the dps were as bad as all that, then I wouldn't have been routinely in the running for kill-count leader even in well geared groups and raids. If it were so utterly bad, then I wouldn't have random people messaging me every couple of weeks thanking me for posting a great build that they're enjoying.

You even admit above that meaningful contributions to a raid group do not require extreme min-max builds, and yet you refuse to accept that doing anything less than a cookie-cutter min/max type melee does not mean that it is gimped, sucky, pure flavor or whatever. It just doesn't. There's huge amounts of room in the middle.

This will be my last post here, as someone above was correct about inappropriate arguments here. I've tried to make my point, but keep getting sucked into pointless arguments about things I am not trying and have never tried to say. I'm off to go play the game.

[Jaid314]

i don't object that less than max DPS is still a contribution, nor do i contend that DPS is the only way to contribute to a raid or group.

that doesn't change the fact that, compared to a class that is good at dealing damage, a phoenix build is going to have really bad DPS. i don't know why you would think it reasonable to compare it to anything else. i mean, i don't decide that my spellcasting bard is awesome at CC because it's better than a paladin at CC. i compare it to the classes that are good at CC, and conclude that it's sort of decent, but not really that great; better than nothing, but if i really wanted CC, i'd take a wizard over my bard in a heartbeat.

i have plenty of flavor builds in my character list. i plan on adding more. there's nothing wrong with them.

but i don't lie to myself about them being flavor builds. and i don't lie to myself about them being good DPS.

i have an acrobat build. loads of fun. i'm loving my epic souleater, and the fact that i'm able to survive so much better with it (being as how it's a bodyfeeder of vampirism weapon in addition to eating souls). but i fully acknowledge that the character, which was a pure rogue strength-based assassin, was much better DPS before i TR'd it into an acrobat.

i have a spellsinger bard. sure, those are sort of the flavor of the month now, but they weren't when i made mine (possibly because melee DPS was so much better than caster DPS at the time). i've got some decent, but not great, gear on that character. loads of fun to play for me; for all the jokes i make about bard being a license to pike, i try to stay active with hypnotism, crushing despair, mind fog, various dance spells, daze monster, charms in appropriate content, and throwing the occasional mass cure and/or scrolls of various restorative spells. but i don't for a second fool myself into thinking i'm as good for CC as a wizard, or even a sorcerer, due to lack of spells. i don't try to call myself a main healer as i would on my cleric (although i plan on just passing through the cleric life tbh), and i certainly don't claim to be a melee even though i'll get in there and swing a debuff weapon (eg improved destruction) or a terror when i have nothing better to do. i'm having fun, i'm contributing... but i fully recognise the limitations of the build, and if someone was to ask me to come along and CC epic elite offering of blood, well... i'm not gonna pretend that i'm the best choice for that, even though i'm not a completely awful choice in some ways either.

heck, i've even got a THF maul fighter (currently capped with a barb splash, but whatever; still basically a fighter). it isn't as fun as i thought it would be, admittedly (that character is currently slated to become a drow TWF scythe rogue assassin build, dex-based, just for the heck of it), but i still don't try to fool myself into thinking it's the most effective build, and i never did. i knew from the start it was going to be sort of effective, and i acknowledged that, and settled for it. depressingly it is still better than my ranger at DPS (which ranger is currently slated to go die in a fire and come back as a drow short sword/shuriken monk build, by the way - and no, i don't think it will be effective, i'm just hoping it will be fun and have some ways that it is better than a conventional monk build)

it's time for you to do the same with your phoenix build(s). yes, you can gear a phoenix build until it's sort of good at DPS. an actual DPS build with the same or similar stuff would be even better, however, and no amount of telling yourself that you're awesome DPS is going to change that. can you run off and solo stuff better than a typical barbarian? absolutely! no question of that. there are things you can do with a phoenix build that are great. but being great DPS is not one of them. generally speaking, without ridiculous amounts of gear, i doubt even being *mediocre* DPS is one of them. you're focused on self-healing, and being hard to kill, and being self-sufficient. that comes at a cost in DPS. it's as simple as that. you can pretend like you're the best DPS out there, if you want. it's not going to change reality. paladin DPS is low, and phoenix DPS is typically even lower because you take hunter of the dead instead of something that actually adds DPS (and usually grab light monk instead of dark, as well, i suppose... though with the typical 3-4 level splash, there usually isn't enough to see a huge difference either way). you make up for that in other areas, and can even solo areas fairly well i'm sure (which likely is the *true* source of you leading in kill counts, i suspect), and it isn't even a bad build. it's just not a DPS build. DPS is not what you make a phoenix build for, and ultimately, that will reflect on your DPS.

just because your character isn't completely gimped and useless, doesn't mean it is a good DPS build, or even a mediocre one. you can have a character that is gimpy in one aspect, but not in others. in fact, the typical barbarian is a great example of this; most well-built barbarians are awesome at DPS. and incredibly horribly gimped when it comes to keeping themselves alive. i wouldn't look at that and say "that barbarian is gimpy", but i also wouldn't be insane enough to insist that because it is good at one thing, it must be good at everything else also.

[LordTigerDawn]

The solar phoenix is actually a good build. It is not a max stupid horc barb. Its dps is about equal to a lvl 6 horc max str barb.

I have played a helf solar phoenix stick build and at 20 my dps was about the same as my barb at lvl 6. aka. 40-50 ish + holy and other effects. Pa, thf, ithf, gthf....

Really there is a difference in playing horc vs helf in terms of dps and it is noticeable... as is the lack of rage. The obvious qstaff vs great axe is also there.

If you avoid hotd and go dos the rage delta is smaller, as you get more hp and str.

What you do not get from the barb at lvl 20 is the ability to solo elite cannith quests + others...

If you build the solar with 15 pa, 3 monk, 2 fighter you have lots of feats vs. the feat starved barb.

Analysis, dps is really not the bad...

Loss from Not Half Orc
Weapon types
No Rage

Just about the same as every other non-barb out there...

[Jaid314]

interesting conclusion...

DPS on your level 20 half-elf phoenix is about the same as your level 6 half-orc barb, and that isn't terrible DPS to you?

(although i suspect your 20 half-elf phoenix actually has better DPS than that, or at least *would* if you stopped using a quarterstaff and hit things with your fists... but hey, it's a flavor build, and if you want to hit things with a QS, well... i can't blame you. after all, that's why i have an acrobat build ^^ )

[Tobril]

I know I shouldn't be surprised if a question sparks inappropriate debate on forums

Anyway, thanks for the feedback and I'll give it a try. As far as DPS goes, combat in ddo is about killing them faster than thy kill you, and that survivability is what intrigues me about the build.

Didn't mean to troll your thread.

During heroic levelling you'll be fine, it's just in classic
epics that the build tends to fall behind.

[Tobril]

Truth be told, I'm not familiar with non-phoenix melee builds. I have exactly 3 main characters that I play: a caster, a healer, and my solar phoenix. I've tried playing other kinds of melees, but I keep running into the same problem: they require a healer to keep them going. I've tried a full on tank build (although I have not tried one after U14), but while that helps against physical damage, my dps suffered enormously compared to my solar phoenix.

So what combination of Monk 12/___ 6/___ 2 would you recommend to me, that has good saving throws, good self healing, good dps, and does not have fists of light play a factor in it's survivability?

Mnk 12/Clr 6/Pal 2?

You could go that route. If making a non-raid-tanking build
I think ranger 6 is the way to go for feats, manyshot, etc.

DPS isn't terrible, I beat (but never posted) one of Axer's
barbs in his portal DPS challenge. Conventional melee
will tend to hit harder, but not by as huge a gap as with
the phoenix style builds.


Healing come almost exclusively from lesser/regular vamp
wraps. It's a little less DPS, but as the phoenix builds not
much can take you out solo. The new belt and ring allow
for the use of a full vamp wrap while maintaining a high
stun DC.

You can also use the little SF pots (or hell regular cure pots with enough amp)
not to mention if you're a helf with the cleric dil.


There are a lot of other ways you could go as well. I do
think that this platform contributes a lot more to a raid/group
as it can shift into a close-to-high DPS configuration with
a couple of item swaps.