Wow you really boned warforged this update didn't you?

[OrodelaSol]

Reading the posts it does seem to me like people want them to be awesome at everything. A good chunk of the posts is all about why they aren't amazing melee with full healing amp opportunities with amazing DR without much sacrafice or work to get there.

Now I do agree completely with your assessment of what they should be. They are hulking magical constructs of stone/wood/metal built like a tank and it makes sense they should have solid DR due to that. I also agree by virtue of what they are it would make sense for them to be horrible casters and instead amazing fighters/pally's/barbarians. The problem with that though is right now they are the uber caster class (debatal as #1 or 2 but hey), and I'm afraid if they were to swap it around to make sense, all of the casters with WF's would create even a bigger fuss than those trying to make great melee's out of them (and I think rightfully so as they have been a caster class for so long whether me and you agree with that or not because so many builds and time have been done and spent around that concept).

totally this! could u imagine if wf were gimped as casters like they r as some melee builds? that would be hysterical! the forums would have as much lag as the game does...

[zwiebelring]

But you understand that difficulties and tactics demand certain things from a build and right now, healing amplification is very important. This is screwing WF Barbarians and Fighters. You are not being healed cheap. But cheap is improtant looking at epic elite and CiTW.

Healing party members has shifted from raw spell points towards consumables, because an optimal party setup does not need raw spell point usage any more. That is the faith of pro gamers. A WF is shifting this balance towards spell points again but in any way, there are other toons which can be healed cheaper.

-15% will be there with 3 Pal pls. And this is seen as crucial. if I didn't roll a FvS WF last year, I would have stopped playing DDo because the developpers didn't show any sense on how urgent there temporary cut off of WFs healing amplification impacted gameplay on mundane WFs.

Once I wished they told us how they thought we should beat a raid, when it is a human nature to achieve something efficiently. Obviously, there thinking of how to play this game differs highly from us, the community.

[voodoogroves]

Reading the posts it does seem to me like people want them to be awesome at everything. A good chunk of the posts is all about why they aren't amazing melee with full healing amp opportunities with amazing DR without much sacrafice or work to get there.

No, but a fair number of folks would like all the races to be playable and at least have one area in which they excel.

Now I do agree completely with your assessment of what they should be. They are hulking magical constructs of stone/wood/metal built like a tank and it makes sense they should have solid DR due to that. I also agree by virtue of what they are it would make sense for them to be horrible casters and instead amazing fighters/pally's/barbarians.

It would be better if they weren't "horrible" anythings. Right now, they are. Sadly, this actually makes them unique as most of the other races aren't truly horrid at any one thing.

The problem with that though is right now they are the uber caster class (debatal as #1 or 2 but hey),

The debate is somewhere around 3rd-th, not 1st or 2nd. Half Elf, Human, Drow and Elves are 1 or 2 for the arcanes.

and I'm afraid if they were to swap it around to make sense, all of the casters with WF's would create even a bigger fuss than those trying to make great melee's out of them (and I think rightfully so as they have been a caster class for so long whether me and you agree with that or not because so many builds and time have been done and spent around that concept).

See ... read the posts. No one is suggesting a swap or for them to be super awesome teh-bestest. Just like there are suggestion threads to make Elves better in some aspects, we've got a suggestion to bring WF back in line to even be secondary melee options. They have great potential but yes ... the healing amp situation and other melee-defensive hinderances (max dex interactions, feat cost for body, etc.) really do make them far worse choices for melees across the board. Far worse. I have one that I can gear-through who essentially has great WF healing amp for a melee ... which means I'm still behind just about any fleshie of any class, and certainly less than any melee fleshie or (god forbid) tank. He's fun. He's healing gimped ... with claw set, monk amp, WF healer's friend, etc.

[knockcocker]

No, but a fair number of folks would like all the races to be playable and at least have one area in which they excel.


It would be better if they weren't "horrible" anythings. Right now, they are. Sadly, this actually makes them unique as most of the other races aren't truly horrid at any one thing.

The debate is somewhere around 3rd-th, not 1st or 2nd. Half Elf, Human, Drow and Elves are 1 or 2 for the arcanes.



See ... read the posts. No one is suggesting a swap or for them to be super awesome teh-bestest. Just like there are suggestion threads to make Elves better in some aspects, we've got a suggestion to bring WF back in line to even be secondary melee options. They have great potential but yes ... the healing amp situation and other melee-defensive hinderances (max dex interactions, feat cost for body, etc.) really do make them far worse choices for melees across the board. Far worse. I have one that I can gear-through who essentially has great WF healing amp for a melee ... which means I'm still behind just about any fleshie of any class, and certainly less than any melee fleshie or (god forbid) tank. He's fun. He's healing gimped ... with claw set, monk amp, WF healer's friend, etc.

Mostly this but with the caveat that it depends on what level you (and your
guild if relevant) play at. For normal (and mostly hard) difficulty, it really
doesn't matter that much. For Elite difficultly, the points expressed in posts
like those from Ballyspringer, start to fall down.

For arcane casters, I'd argue that Human is the best race. Extra feat (two if
you assume Quicken is essential on WF and not on other races), healing
amp and +2DC. EDs have leveled the playing field somewhat when it comes to
self healing options - the only area where WF have a clear advantage. WF
itemization issues can increase DC deficit even more (can only get +3
on a trinket)

For melee, the single most important thing in the game when difficulty is a
significant factor is healing amp. I'd argue that the second most important
thing is PRR. WF suck in both of these areas.

[Ballyspringer]

Mostly this but with the caveat that it depends on what level you (and your
guild if relevant) play at. For normal (and mostly hard) difficulty, it really
doesn't matter that much. For Elite difficultly, the points expressed in posts
like those from Ballyspringer, start to fall down.

For arcane casters, I'd argue that Human is the best race. Extra feat (two if
you assume Quicken is essential on WF and not on other races), healing
amp and +2DC. EDs have leveled the playing field somewhat when it comes to
self healing options - the only area where WF have a clear advantage. WF
itemization issues can increase DC deficit even more (can only get +3
on a trinket)

For melee, the single most important thing in the game when difficulty is a
significant factor is healing amp. I'd argue that the second most important
thing is PRR. WF suck in both of these areas.

Well I do have to disrespectfully disagree, I am a leader of an 80+ level guild and I do run EE's quite often. Human I can definately see the argument for, easy to get the extra bit of HP without losing much in DC's abilities and the bonus feat - although with the spell pen at EE I'd also argue pure elf (not drow or helf). But WF are still in EE a top option right up there, arguably #1 or #2 when equally geared and played. They can have huge HP, and can heal huge chunks of dmg with a single spell which are both simply amazing traits for EE.

And not to hijack the thread any more than where this is already going - but for melee I'd change that to "one of the most important things is heal amp and PRR" I have to say a huge pet peeve of mine is "tanks" who have a ton of HP and a ton of heal amp and PRR but can't DPS to save their lives or hold aggro unless everyone else in the raid holds back their DPS. And my main is a tank before you say I've never played a tank and dont know what I'm talking about. (of course DPS is also true for any non tank melee because if you can't dps you are a waste of a spot completely regardless of how great your PRR and heal amp is) Being useful only at the end bosses, and even then debatable if you are useful or not because you can't hold aggro or your group has to take a lot longer/use more resources because you have no dps is a worthless slot to me.

As for the statements by Voodoo:
No, but a fair number of folks would like all the races to be playable and at least have one area in which they excel. also It would be better if they weren't "horrible" anythings. Right now, they are. Sadly, this actually makes them unique as most of the other races aren't truly horrid at any one thing.

Response: see my post on Horc arcanes, also Drow/Elf/Halfling Barbarians, Dwarf Sorcerers, ect... all doable with work - but not any more doable than WF melee which there are many good ones out there. I've seen many really solid (even in EE settings) WF melee after the update than I have a Horc Sorc or Wizard or a halfling tank. Some of the best melee's I know (honestly) are still WF, but they have spent a lot of time perfecting their builds and grinding out gear.

[voodoogroves]

Response: see my post on Horc arcanes, also Drow/Elf/Halfling Barbarians, Dwarf Sorcerers, ect... all doable with work - but not any more doable than WF melee which there are many good ones out there. I've seen many really solid (even in EE settings) WF melee after the update than I have a Horc Sorc or Wizard or a halfling tank. Some of the best melee's I know (honestly) are still WF, but they have spent a lot of time perfecting their builds and grinding out gear.

I think Horc Arcanes are a better choice than a WF melee.

I know WF melee who are solid - and I play one I like - but I'm stacked w/ healing amp items and have dipped monk ... geared despite the case.

Look at it this way - a Horc arcane is behind a few DCs. That's one of the areas that EDs made really, really less important. People are staring at maybe starting with a 16 instead of an 18 on a DC-dependent class because the ED boosts are much better. This lets people on first lives achieve pretty workable DCs.

Fact is though, healing amp is a "big deal". Same with PRR and Dex bonuses, both areas that WF lack. They used to be ok with some decent DR options, but in EE DR is really a drop in the bucket. We're not talking a 1-2 DC difference on a 50-ish target, we're talking pretty serious PRR, DEX/AC and healing amp limitations. You can't twist those away. Sure, people with gear can brute force by ... and a decently geared and played WF melee is going to beat that new guy fresh to 20 with no idea.

Fact is, WF melee are now a similar trap as drow rogues/rangers ... just on a different side of the coin.