Wow you really boned warforged this update didn't you?

[MRMechMan]

It's clear non-arcane WF are not welcome in Ebberon or FR.

-warforged healers friend needed a serious buff. ZERO reason to play a warforged melee due to immunities meaning nothing and little to no benefit. What happened instead?

BROKEN. It is now providing LESS benefit than it did before/should. With the level cap/hp increase healing amp matters even more than before, and suddenly healers friend is not only not buffed, but BROKEN? REALLY?

-Changes to spell power

BROKEN. Devotion items are not providing the correct spell power. My main used to self heal for ~600pts per heal...now ~350. That is a huge difference. It makes healing warforged even harder than before.

-Immunities

You didn't make things interesting and fun, now it is a pain in the A$$ as you just need to carry pots around. Even as a warforged.

-Body feats

Now adamantine body is a good choice for most non-arcane builds. Trouble is, other races don't need to burn a feat to get decent AC. Warforged heavy armor builds DO, one more reason NOT to pick warforged.

-Docents

Very few docents in new pack. 2 docents? Really?

-Construct fortification on docents

WOW, now that AC is more useful to more builds, you decided to TAKE AWAY 3 AC and give WF...10% fortification. You know, for those 3 wf running around with a moderate fort item at level16+...


This will get me some hate. Some players see a warforged thread and don't actually read it, just assume it is about arcane WF, which don't need any buffs.

Please, fix melee/divine warforged.

[DaSawks]

/signed

WF melee are borked.

*puts WF barb on shelf.

[slimkj]

I'm not quite so angry about it all, but most of the original post here is my feeling too. WF do feel a bit like the "grubby cousin" of late.

[Uska]

Might need some loving but on my wf monk not really noticing the immunity nerf

[morticianjohn]

Might need some loving but on my wf monk not really noticing the immunity nerf

-2 inventory space is a big deal for many

[BeccaBop]

-2 inventory space is a big deal for many

That'd be nice, except every WF I have (and I have a couple of completionist WF) carry a stack of poison and disease potions with them, everywhere they go.

I've never felt the WF "immunities" past Waterworks since the change.

And it hasn't been fun.

[Fecerak]

No, warforged is not in the top 3 for those races, because even getting the -2 con penalty of an elf and still not getting anything in return for it is still better for most classes when the other option is a crippling 50% heal penalty.

[voodoogroves]

Will point out that a WF FVS is going to have significantly more HP than your "barely 400 at cap". They generally don't focus on WIS, and are essentially two-stat creatures.


The reason WF are such a bad choice for the classes mentioned is, simply put, healing amp. Healing Amp is undervalued by some, but seriously it is both that good and that important. In many ways, it's more important than actual max HP.

[Bechtinger]

WF definitely IS the by far WORST race for anything but arcanes/arti.

Melees past Lvl 20 will go up tp 750+ hp (most likely even more) and youll need several single target heals to fill someone up. In a boss fight these ppl require the healer to cycle mass cures quite fast to keep em on a lvl which prevents one shots. or you have to throw single target heals in between the masses. If you dont spend extra sp on them, they will die at some point.

There is absolutely no reason to play a melee WF in endgame, every other race can do better, just because they are way easier to keep up. WF PA, some resistances or neg level stuff and some hitpoints dont help at all. If youre dead because youre gimping your survivability, youre doing 0 DPS and thus contribute nothing. You just suck up the healer's sp really fast if they decide to keep you up. Sad but true. If you dont run HF III, Claw Gloves, ToD-Ring, you are a liability to your party and even then you are far from other races.

As mentioned before:
They either need a major buff to AC, DR or PRR or a huge buff to incoming divine healing. Well, it could be enough if healers friend was working as stated in its description. Right now, HF III is working as "improved recovery III" with 15% Healamp telling from the effects panel...

[zwiebelring]

No major buff just the ****ing fix for heal amp. addition of enhancements. I don#t wanna think about the Paladin past life feat now. Nobody mentioned and tested, if the Paladin pl (which is adding to base heal amp. like the enhancement line) is working or broken as well, additionally the ****ing disfunction of items and stats after advancing in epic destinies is screwing a WF too.

Fix heal amp. at the very least and WFs are happy again. Restore full immunities and WFs are again a solid choice. Right now, every WF is a freakin' Dorf with lower base heal amp.....

Man I am angry about this, did anyone recognize?^^

WF definitely IS the by far WORST race for anything but arcanes/arti.

No.^^

[MRMechMan]

@fran

Yes, the worst race, for every class except for sorc/arti/wizard. Lets break it down.

Elves get -2 con. -4 after enhancements. -25hp/-50hp at cap is FAR more palatable than -50% amp.
Dwarves? Get the PA enhancements and double healing AND the +2 con, still -2 cha but +0 wis. Plus nicer enhancements. Still a pretty **** good race.
Drow? -2 con but +2cha/dex/int. only 32 pt builds but, still, getting full healing from positive energy is still much nicer. I would put drow at the bottom of the pile, but still above warforged, because amp is *that* important.
Halflings? -2str, +2 dex, AMAZING enhancements, some other nice perks. Very underrated race and nothing the WF gets puts them even remotely near them.
Humans? feat, +1/+1 to 2 stats, +1 skills, healing amp, versitility boosts, no neg stats...oh my god this race is amazing
Half elf? incredible dillys, +1/1 to 2 stats, healing amp, option for arcane archer...EASILY the most powerful race IMO, perhaps only rivaled by humans that need the feat.
Half orc? A bit more 1 dimentional than human/helf but for any melee, they get everything important the WF has and more; plus much easier to heal. This race in particular has made WF obselete. Before Horc came out there was speculation on what they would get of PA/tactics enhancements, how they would balance it against other races and the like...well, most rational people were slightly stunned, as they got it all.

WF get rubbish enhancements and immunities that are either gone or mean nothing at endgame. Reconstructability is really the only reason to play them, and if you can't do it yourself, don't expect someone else to do it for you. Plus, recon is getting nerfed as well.

I am not talking about your gimp bard or cleric at 18 that have 300-400hp. THey probably don't have issues. Well maybe they have issues but it isn't topping themselves up in 1 heal.

Although, my ungeared 20 fvs that I stoned has his heals hit him for 198...that is a pain as even without gear he has ~550hp. Even with more gear self heal would only go up to ~350-400, and with that amount of love he is probably up to 700-800hp. Frustrating.

I am talking about endgame on a geared character that has 800-1000hp.

Mass heal is better than heal...but if I am self healing on a divine I don't want to cast mass heal on myself, I want to cast heal. I've actually gotten in the habit of healing myself with mass heal, as the slower cast rate and +10 sp is worth getting hit for ~550-600 rather than ~350-400. Shouldn't have to do that.

[FranOhmsford]

@fran

Yes, the worst race, for every class except for sorc/arti/wizard. Lets break it down.

Elves get -2 con. -4 after enhancements. -25hp/-50hp at cap is FAR more palatable than -50% amp.
Dwarves? Get the PA enhancements and double healing AND the +2 con, still -2 cha but +0 wis. Plus nicer enhancements. Still a pretty **** good race.
Drow? -2 con but +2cha/dex/int. only 32 pt builds but, still, getting full healing from positive energy is still much nicer. I would put drow at the bottom of the pile, but still above warforged, because amp is *that* important.
Halflings? -2str, +2 dex, AMAZING enhancements, some other nice perks. Very underrated race and nothing the WF gets puts them even remotely near them.
Humans? feat, +1/+1 to 2 stats, +1 skills, healing amp, versitility boosts, no neg stats...oh my god this race is amazing
Half elf? incredible dillys, +1/1 to 2 stats, healing amp, option for arcane archer...EASILY the most powerful race IMO, perhaps only rivaled by humans that need the feat.
Half orc? A bit more 1 dimentional than human/helf but for any melee, they get everything important the WF has and more; plus much easier to heal. This race in particular has made WF obselete. Before Horc came out there was speculation on what they would get of PA/tactics enhancements, how they would balance it against other races and the like...well, most rational people were slightly stunned, as they got it all.

WF get rubbish enhancements and immunities that are either gone or mean nothing at endgame. Reconstructability is really the only reason to play them, and if you can't do it yourself, don't expect someone else to do it for you. Plus, recon is getting nerfed as well.

I am not talking about your gimp bard or cleric at 18 that have 300-400hp. THey probably don't have issues. Well maybe they have issues but it isn't topping themselves up in 1 heal.

Although, my ungeared 20 fvs that I stoned has his heals hit him for 198...that is a pain as even without gear he has ~550hp. Even with more gear self heal would only go up to ~350-400, and with that amount of love he is probably up to 700-800hp. Frustrating.

I am talking about endgame on a geared character that has 800-1000hp.

Mass heal is better than heal...but if I am self healing on a divine I don't want to cast mass heal on myself, I want to cast heal. I've actually gotten in the habit of healing myself with mass heal, as the slower cast rate and +10 sp is worth getting hit for ~550-600 rather than ~350-400. Shouldn't have to do that.

Starting with your last paragraph - I'm thinking the devs {This has come up in other threads} have decided that Heal should not be the go-to spell at Lvl 25 and any Cleric/FS worth his/her salt will be casting Mass Heal on themselves as well as the party - Would like to know if the devs are planning on allowing us to actually get into Melee combat at that point to be able to do this {still annoyed at the PRR Debacle when the devs decided Clerics wouldn't get any - That idea got shelved supposedly}.

AS for my WF Bard - He's a Spellsinger so laugh as much as you like - I actually enjoy playing him - It's just being the altaholic that I am I haven't got him up to the high levels yet - As I said though he will be going completionist and will remain WF throughout...As I have no intention of ever creating another WF toon.

As for the rest - It seems you're basing everything on Healer's Friend being broken - Now as far as I know the devs most certainly have NOT said that THAT is WAI.
I really hope it's not!

That aside - WF are definitely a better choice of race than anything other than Human/H-Elf for pretty much everything except where H-Orc comes into it's own with Fighter/Barb/Warchanter/Rogue Acrobat and of course Rogues in general and Clerics.

Elves have been buffed as Wizards/Sorcs but still cannot compete with WF as is - That Con issue is the seperator as well you know.

Now if the Devs had made AC as powerful as it should be {Being D&D} and with it making Dex a much more desirable stat...Then things would be different.
BUT DDO is a Con/HP game!
You could say the same regarding Str/Dex for Dmg and To Hit of course - If Weapon Finesse actually worked for Dmg as well as attack then Dex/Con would be equal to Str/Con at the least.

Basically I'm saying make Dex worthwhile - Of course I wouldn't go overboard - AC or Dmg - Not both - Otherwise Str becomes the dump stat.

[Truga]

Good were the days when WF was at least viable for any class. Currently a horc sorcerer/wizard is more viable than any WF melee... Yes, it's that bad. And it gets worse with every additional HP bump we get.

WF have been bad for melee for some time now. The broken heal amp (is that actually WAI now? Has any dev confirmed?) is making things far worse. When heals would heat for 500+ and we had 600+ HP things were OK. Now that heals hit us for 400+ and we have 800+ HP... Meh.

[voodoogroves]

Good were the days when WF was at least viable for any class. Currently a horc sorcerer/wizard is more viable than any WF melee... Yes, it's that bad. And it gets worse with every additional HP bump we get.

WF have been bad for melee for some time now. The broken heal amp (is that actually WAI now? Has any dev confirmed?) is making things far worse. When heals would heat for 500+ and we had 600+ HP things were OK. Now that heals hit us for 400+ and we have 800+ HP... Meh.

Feather found at least a bit of it; check the dev tracker on lama land.

[MRMechMan]

First of all, yes, some of that is based on WF healers friend giving 1/2 of what it should.

But, even before it was broken, WF were a poor choice as were basically tied to 10%/20%/30% amp (ie, epic gloves of the claw) for heals to hit them for over ~500. WF tanks were a poor choice as heal scrolls were noticably worse, fvs capstone, clr aura, etc. WF paladins/rangers/bards self healing was much rougher than fleshie. Same with any UMD class that used heal scrolls. Recon scrolls hit for 110-150 before xpac-no repair amp.

And after xpac, with PC melee hp going way up, amp is again very, very important, and even with maxxed amp gear, WF can't really compete. Even if they fix HF.

I am telling you, con is not a big deal anymore once geared and capped @25. Really. It is all about amp now. That and surviability. If the WF barb has 1010hp but heals hit him for 400, and the elf barb has 930hp and heals hit him for 700, who is in a better situation? Pretty obvious IMO.

When you are in the mass heals fighting a boss, THREE things and three things ALONE matter for survivability.

1. Damage mitigation-AC, shadow fade, possibly displacement, dodge, PRR. Warforged are made out of metal and wood and yet get NOTHING on this front. Actually are behind because of AC body feat craptasticness.
2. Total HP-WF get ~50-70hp here, slightly more if can take epic toughness (many builds cannot). Lets call it 100hp. Once you are above a certain number, it doesn't matter much in mass heal situations...just don't be the lowest and you aren't draining healer sp.
3. Healing Amp. WF take a massive hit here. Enough that just about any healer will notice it, some will complain about it, and many will have to cast masses more often just to keep *you* up. You ever play a healer or WF melee in Evon6 and you will notice this.

I am not talking about sorc/wiz/arti-those are still viable for WF. Anything else really is not.

You say ddo is a con/hp game...well it is evolving more into a self healing/survivability game, and WF can't do either of those without self reconstructs. If you aren't self healing or super survivable you had better bring top DPS, and WF can't even do that.

[Jay203]

First of all, yes, some of that is based on WF healers friend giving 1/2 of what it should.

But, even before it was broken, WF were a poor choice as were basically tied to 10%/20%/30% amp (ie, epic gloves of the claw) for heals to hit them for over ~500. WF tanks were a poor choice as heal scrolls were noticably worse, fvs capstone, clr aura, etc. WF paladins/rangers/bards self healing was much rougher than fleshie. Same with any UMD class that used heal scrolls. Recon scrolls hit for 110-150 before xpac-no repair amp.

And after xpac, with PC melee hp going way up, amp is again very, very important, and even with maxxed amp gear, WF can't really compete. Even if they fix HF.

I am telling you, con is not a big deal anymore once geared and capped @25. Really. It is all about amp now. That and surviability. If the WF barb has 1010hp but heals hit him for 400, and the elf barb has 930hp and heals hit him for 700, who is in a better situation? Pretty obvious IMO.

When you are in the mass heals fighting a boss, THREE things and three things ALONE matter for survivability.

1. Damage mitigation-AC, shadow fade, possibly displacement, dodge, PRR. Warforged are made out of metal and wood and yet get NOTHING on this front. Actually are behind because of AC body feat craptasticness.
2. Total HP-WF get ~50-70hp here, slightly more if can take epic toughness (many builds cannot). Lets call it 100hp. Once you are above a certain number, it doesn't matter much in mass heal situations...just don't be the lowest and you aren't draining healer sp.
3. Healing Amp. WF take a massive hit here. Enough that just about any healer will notice it, some will complain about it, and many will have to cast masses more often just to keep *you* up. You ever play a healer or WF melee in Evon6 and you will notice this.

I am not talking about sorc/wiz/arti-those are still viable for WF. Anything else really is not.

You say ddo is a con/hp game...well it is evolving more into a self healing/survivability game, and WF can't do either of those without self reconstructs. If you aren't self healing or super survivable you had better bring top DPS, and WF can't even do that.

that and the lack of consideration for wf when updates are released..... =.=;;;

[FranOhmsford]

First of all, yes, some of that is based on WF healers friend giving 1/2 of what it should.

But, even before it was broken, WF were a poor choice as were basically tied to 10%/20%/30% amp (ie, epic gloves of the claw) for heals to hit them for over ~500. WF tanks were a poor choice as heal scrolls were noticably worse, fvs capstone, clr aura, etc. WF paladins/rangers/bards self healing was much rougher than fleshie. Same with any UMD class that used heal scrolls. Recon scrolls hit for 110-150 before xpac-no repair amp.

And after xpac, with PC melee hp going way up, amp is again very, very important, and even with maxxed amp gear, WF can't really compete. Even if they fix HF.

I am telling you, con is not a big deal anymore once geared and capped @25. Really. It is all about amp now. That and surviability. If the WF barb has 1010hp but heals hit him for 400, and the elf barb has 930hp and heals hit him for 700, who is in a better situation? Pretty obvious IMO.

When you are in the mass heals fighting a boss, THREE things and three things ALONE matter for survivability.

1. Damage mitigation-AC, shadow fade, possibly displacement, dodge, PRR. Warforged are made out of metal and wood and yet get NOTHING on this front. Actually are behind because of AC body feat craptasticness.
2. Total HP-WF get ~50-70hp here, slightly more if can take epic toughness (many builds cannot). Lets call it 100hp. Once you are above a certain number, it doesn't matter much in mass heal situations...just don't be the lowest and you aren't draining healer sp.
3. Healing Amp. WF take a massive hit here. Enough that just about any healer will notice it, some will complain about it, and many will have to cast masses more often just to keep *you* up. You ever play a healer or WF melee in Evon6 and you will notice this.

I am not talking about sorc/wiz/arti-those are still viable for WF. Anything else really is not.

You say ddo is a con/hp game...well it is evolving more into a self healing/survivability game, and WF can't do either of those without self reconstructs. If you aren't self healing or super survivable you had better bring top DPS, and WF can't even do that.

Well said.

As I pointed out in {I hope} all three of my posts in this thread so far {but I'm only sure of 2} I do feel WF Melee need a boost.

I'm actually rather glad WF are no longer the go to race for Favoured Soul - I always felt that was wrong Lore wise.

Let's look at it objectively though:

Wizard - WF, Human, H-Elf, Elf and possibly Drow - I'd put them in that order atm - As you say Survivability is huge and H-Elves beat Elves simply because of the Dilly.
Sorceror - WF, Human, H-Elf, Drow - Again that order.
Artificer - Human, H-Elf, Warforged, Halfling, Drow - Halflings and Drow are a long way behind the front three who are very very close.

Then We've got:

Favoured Soul - Before this update WF were unequivocally the #1 race for Souls - Yes I've had this argument on the forums in the past and there's things to be said for Human, H-Elf and Drow BUT WF always had the edge.

That's four classes out of 12 {Discounting Druid} where WF were arguably the Top race - I feel that was overpowered personally.

H-Orcs - Barbarian, Rogue Acrobat {God knows I feel this is a bad joke}.
Human - Paladin, Cleric {extra feat is huge}.
H-Elf - Ranger, Fighter {Dilly wins this}, Rogue Assassin, Bard {H-Orcs and Humans probably take the Warchanter}.
Elf - Uh?
Dwarf - Uh?
Halfling - Monk possibly {Monk's probably the most balanced class for race though}.
Drow - Rogue Mech - This is where Drow excel.

From what I can tell the majority of Amp is gear based - If you can get said gear race isn't going to be a definer.

Now Humans and H-Elves have overtaken WF as the top Souls - I suppose it's possible Drow have moved up into 3rd place.

But I'm still saying that nerfing WF is not the answer - Dwarves, Halflings and {especially} Elves need Buffing.

Elves should be the obvious choice for Wizard - atm they're fourth.
Drow {with their high Charisma} should be ahead of Humans, H-Elves and WF as Sorcs. Unfortunately the devs have decided that Sorcs should be nukers - DCs not an issue.

Weapon finesse needs fixing to help Halfling and Drow Rogues AND Elf and Drow Tempest Rangers.

Dwarves need Dwarven Defender yesterday.

WF were built for War - They should at the very least be equal to Humans as Paladins {Lord of Blades}. This is hard - That Extra feat is massive for a Pally - I'm wondering whether it's worth giving Paladins bonus feats at Lvls 6, 12 and 18? Another choice would be to fix their spell list - By the time you actually get 2nd lvl spells as a Pally NOT ONE of em is worth taking.
H-Orcs SHOULD be #1 for Barbarian
Fighter should be none race dependant really - Working Weapon Finesse rules would help here. Every race should be able to produce superlative Fighters.

Bring out WF Scouts - Even if it's just to choose the body size on Character screen - and I'd accept WF getting bonuses as Rogue Assassins.
Arti/Rogue Mech Synergy helps WF here a lot.

Rogue Acrobat - The Dex races should have the edge here - by a large margin - Elf, Drow, Halfling should be the top 3 choices.

Bard - WF and H-Orc really shouldn't be anywhere near the top choices here - For those of us who like to play Flavour toons {My WF Spellsinger for example} they'd be playable but other races should have much more synergy.

Monk - As I said - Pretty well balanced atm - If the game was starting today I'd ask why WF are allowed to take this class at all tbh {rather like Sorc and FavSoul}. But it isn't and they are so let's leave it as is - Fix the bugs though of course.

Ranger - Now obviously Elves have been nerfed into oblivion here with the advent of H-Elves - This needs fixing fast.
Otherwise - WF, H-Orc, Human, H-Elf, Dwarf, Drow and Elf Tempests should all be viable - Halfling would be the flavour choice.
Elf should be out and out the #1 choice for Arcane Archer.
Deepwood Sniper - Let's not go there shall we? OK Halflings should have the advantage here {if the devs ever get around to fixing this PrE.

Druid - Eberron Druids are Orcish in the lore right? H-Orcs should have racial bonuses here.
Artificer - The only races I can't really see having the technological bent for this are Elf and H-Orc - The rest should be about equal.

[MRMechMan]

You have been misinformed. Unequivocally best? WF was never the #1 race for fvs; human and half elf were always better.

Better self healing, better DCs, similar melee ability. Better survivability. The ability to get a capstone spell that was NOT shield (lol?) and was a 150-200pt heal for free every 6 seconds. That is amazing.

Wizard-if archmage, yes. If palemaster, human is better, halfelf better, elf better. There are far more palemasters out there compared to archmages, but I'll still put this at 1/2 for "best race". You say elf is 4th but really, in content that matters, they are #1.

Sorc-yes, but with recon nerf coming fleshie is looking fairly attractive.

Arti- yes.

Your logic of "I FEEL that WF or XXX race should not be druids or fvs or XXX class therefor people should not be able to play them" is troubling.

So 2 classes, 2.5 if you count archmage as 1/2. But this isn't about making WF sorcs/artis better. They don't need it.

It's about making WF playable as the rest of the classes without smashing your face into the keyboard.

[FranOhmsford]

Your logic of "I FEEL that WF or XXX race should not be druids or fvs or XXX class therefor people should not be able to play them" is troubling.

It's the PC attitude that everything should be available to everyone that troubles me.

When I started playing D&D Dwarves were not allowed to be Wizards {Sorc didn't exist} as a side effect of their natural resistance to magic {Not Spell Res like Drow get},

Now they still get that Resistance to magic in the form of saving throw bonuses but no longer have the disadvantage that goes with it.

As for WF - I do feel that Innate classes {Sorc/FavSoul/Monk} should be out of their purview - Of course this is something I've had to accept in DDO but I have a right to state my preferences.

WF FavSouls are basically uber Paladins - Wouldn't it have been better to give WF bonuses as Paladins and make FavSoul untakeable for that race?

WF have all the time in the World to study Magic - They should be able to become superlative Wizards {Perhaps even on par with Elves} BUT Sorcs? Really?

Monk again is a class that WF should just be unable to take - They are Constructs! I'd probably say the same for Druid.

But WF are able to take every class - As are every other race in DDO - This I've had to get used to although it goes against the grain for me.
What I'll always say is that the game should not be balanced to give WF such large benefits over other races in these classes that lore wise they have no synergy with.

Now the issue atm is just how much WF are being nerfed - I'm seeing too much!
Ignore Healer's Friend being Borked!
If you're going to balance WF with the other races IT HAS TO GO BOTH WAYS - THEY NEED BOOSTING IN THE MELEE CLASSES!

[MRMechMan]

Warforged have souls too /snarfle