Wow you really boned warforged this update didn't you?

[Paxsmickey]

Why shouldn't a Warforged be capable of being a druid, a monk, a sorcerer, a favored soul, a cleric, or a paladin? They are made up of a stone-like substance for their skeletons, and fibrous tubes that transport a blood like fluid. with some warforged being made of natural materials, and in general being rejected from society I can easily see a warforged taking refuge in the wild, and becoming a druid.

My last character for my Pen and paper D&D group was a Warforged Shaman. He had some fighter multi-class feats, and his backstory was that after being ambushed hundreds of years before the campaign he was knocked unconscious and his rune burned out. After being left in the wild of centuries the spirits of the forest had melded with his soul such that when he was reactivated he had become one with nature.

As for monks, with all the time in the world to spend meditating on their purpose, why can't a warforged be a monk?

Warforged do in fact have souls, and sentience. We aren't sure how exactly, but in the process of house cannith creating the warforged and making them independent they introduced a sentient, souled being. Warforged have souls, and in no way is it uncommon to find faith after a lifetime without it. Having a soul, the ability to think for themselves, having a religious belief, and so on would imply they have every right to be a divine class.

Favored souls are the chosen people of their deity. One might argue that a god would never choose someone new to their faith to lead their people, yet this is exactly what happened to Moses in the bible. A god can have a plan for you even if you don't believe he exists, so I see no problem with a warforged favored soul. (They should probably have a great faith story though)

A sorcerer is a being with unharnessed magical power. They have the ability, but lack the training. Warforged were intended to be warriors, so perhaps the remnants of the arcane magic that created them granted them magic abilities, but those abilities weren't tapped until later when they were needed, and could be used freely.

[FranOhmsford]

Why shouldn't a Warforged be capable of being a druid, a monk, a sorcerer, a favored soul, a cleric, or a paladin? They are made up of a stone-like substance for their skeletons, and fibrous tubes that transport a blood like fluid. with some warforged being made of natural materials, and in general being rejected from society I can easily see a warforged taking refuge in the wild, and becoming a druid.

My last character for my Pen and paper D&D group was a Warforged Shaman. He had some fighter multi-class feats, and his backstory was that after being ambushed hundreds of years before the campaign he was knocked unconscious and his rune burned out. After being left in the wild of centuries the spirits of the forest had melded with his soul such that when he was reactivated he had become one with nature.

As for monks, with all the time in the world to spend meditating on their purpose, why can't a warforged be a monk?

Warforged do in fact have souls, and sentience. We aren't sure how exactly, but in the process of house cannith creating the warforged and making them independent they introduced a sentient, souled being. Warforged have souls, and in no way is it uncommon to find faith after a lifetime without it. Having a soul, the ability to think for themselves, having a religious belief, and so on would imply they have every right to be a divine class.

Favored souls are the chosen people of their deity. One might argue that a god would never choose someone new to their faith to lead their people, yet this is exactly what happened to Moses in the bible. A god can have a plan for you even if you don't believe he exists, so I see no problem with a warforged favored soul. (They should probably have a great faith story though)

A sorcerer is a being with unharnessed magical power. They have the ability, but lack the training. Warforged were intended to be warriors, so perhaps the remnants of the arcane magic that created them granted them magic abilities, but those abilities weren't tapped until later when they were needed, and could be used freely.

These are flavour arguments.

My issue is not that WF can be these classes at all - Though it may seem that way at first glance.

It's that not only can they be these classes they can be as good or better than any other race - This is wrong.

The advantages Races got in PnP have all been put into DDO {I think} But the disadvantages that go with those advantages have not.

I still feel that Racial enhancements should be free - Not Action Point driven - These are the reason people take different races yet for some reason we now have to use Action Points to get Racial Benefits.

Look at it this way - AD&D 2nd Ed. had max levels allowable for none Human races - That's right after Lvl 15-16 Humans would be out and out the best race bar none for every class. No I didn't agree with some of the arbitrarily low maximums - I don't believe many GMs actually had this rule set in stone.

If Warforged were restricted to Lvl 12 as Sorcerors/FavSouls but gained large Melee Benefits that allowed them to have 8 Lvls of Fighter or Paladin and compete at Lvl 20 with Pure classes - Would this be a bad thing?

If Dwarves were disallowed from becoming Arcane Casters {As originally envisaged} But gained Dwarven Defender making them Superlative Battle Clerics - Would this be a bad thing?

Disadvantages and Advantages - One without the other doesn't work.

The main problem is that with everything in DDO being cap based WF had no discernible disadvantages* before the Expansion.
I feel that a blanket ban on WF taking innate classes would have been a better choice than what we got.

Of course with the devs clearly trying to change this - Not that they're doing a great job at the moment {clearly there's big issues} I'm just arguing for Balance - If you're going to nerf WF Caster classes then at least buff the melee classes in turn.

*H-Orcs being better Barbarians is NOT a disadvantage.

For your FavSoul paragraph - The Lord of Blades would surely feel Paladins to be more his style. Warforged should be able to make very strong Paladins - I just don't feel FavSoul should be available to them.

P.S. I was not around during the days of WF being gimped - Since I've been here they've been the top race as a matter of course.
Well there were still a few people when I joined DDO complaining about WF who didn't take Healer's Friend at all - I believe there's still some people {a lot less} complaining about this today.
My first Sorc - Human with Rogue splash {got deleted at lvl 10} once joined an irestone group and got told "Oh good you're on Healer duty" - I left that group instantly - If I'd been on my Wizzy of course I'd have gone to the Tavern and swapped in Repair spells but I was on my Human Sorc.
I still haven't played a Sorc past Lvl 10 - I stoned the latest from 8-16 but haven't played her at that lvl yet as she's not geared up - Elf Ice Sorc.

[MRMechMan]

These are flavour arguments.

My issue is not that WF can be these classes at all - Though it may seem that way at first glance.

It's that not only can they be these classes they can be as good or better than any other race - This is wrong.
No, it is fairly common knowledge by now that they are the worst melee race. Not sure what ingame experiences have led you to believe WF melee are the bees knees. Gonna guess that you were not in the healers chair or the WF melees chair.
The advantages Races got in PnP have all been put into DDO {I think} But the disadvantages that go with those advantages have not.
On the contrary, the WF healing amp penalty is very much there.
I still feel that Racial enhancements should be free - Not Action Point driven - These are the reason people take different races yet for some reason we now have to use Action Points to get Racial Benefits.
Yea, we have a choice of what to pick, how horrible!
Look at it this way - AD&D 2nd Ed. had max levels allowable for none Human races - That's right after Lvl 15-16 Humans would be out and out the best race bar none for every class. No I didn't agree with some of the arbitrarily low maximums - I don't believe many GMs actually had this rule set in stone.
Maybe that's why 2nd ed. is no longer exactly cutting edge
If Warforged were restricted to Lvl 12 as Sorcerors/FavSouls but gained large Melee Benefits that allowed them to have 8 Lvls of Fighter or Paladin and compete at Lvl 20 with Pure classes - Would this be a bad thing?
yes
If Dwarves were disallowed from becoming Arcane Casters {As originally envisaged} But gained Dwarven Defender making them Superlative Battle Clerics - Would this be a bad thing?
yes
Disadvantages and Advantages - One without the other doesn't work.

The main problem is that with everything in DDO being cap based WF had no discernible disadvantages* before the Expansion.

oh how mighty your powers of deception are!
I feel that a blanket ban on WF taking innate classes would have been a better choice than what we got.
Surely you are joking now...
Of course with the devs clearly trying to change this - Not that they're doing a great job at the moment {clearly there's big issues} I'm just arguing for Balance - If you're going to nerf WF Caster classes then at least buff the melee classes in turn.
Your idea of balance is only letting some races be some classes?
*H-Orcs being better Barbarians is NOT a disadvantage.

For your FavSoul paragraph - The Lord of Blades would surely feel Paladins to be more his style. Warforged should be able to make very strong Paladins - I just don't feel FavSoul should be available to them.
...
P.S. I was not around during the days of WF being gimped - Since I've been here they've been the top race as a matter of course. Are you around now? WF have never been more gimped then right now for 10/13 classes
Well there were still a few people when I joined DDO complaining about WF who didn't take Healer's Friend at all - I believe there's still some people {a lot less} complaining about this today. Actually it is getting worse and worse. Due to HP of PCs way, way up and WF amp way down, many people will see the fighter is WF and boot em.

Responses in bold

[FranOhmsford]

Responses in bold

I'm going to agree to disagree and leave this thread here.

But first:

Actually it is getting worse and worse. Due to HP of PCs way, way up and WF amp way down, many people will see the fighter is WF and boot em.

Had to quote this ^

Cos those would be the same people currently booting Elven Tempests, Drow Rogues, Seemingly all Arcane Archers etc.

You don't want this to happen to WF Melees yet it's been happening to other Race/Class combinations for a long time.
Is the answer to Nerf WF - No!
Buffing the other races on the other hand......

[Hilltrot]

Responses in bold

I've met Mr. Mechman. I've played with Mr. Mechman. I don't like Mr. Mechman.

But . . . . I have to agree with him on this. I'd have to also add that removing racial limitations on classes was one of many smart decisions Skip Williams made while writing 3rd Ed. Skip Williams is my hero. He saved D&D.

Not that I like him on a personal level either. . . but he did really good work.

[Galvin_Omon]

Hey Devs,

Thanks for nothing, I'm glad we poured out hearts out about requesting changing back Warforges to their original status. I love the fact that no one from this organization has commented on this @ss-o-9 idea of changing the powers on this class. This and the stupid changes made to Terror has really Pi55ed me off. Again the purpose of this game is to have fun, not see how much you can upset paying customers.


Thanks, would it have been really that hard to throw us a little love, I guess not.

[Truga]

I found another problem.

My WF FvS has Adamantine Body feat. It looks cool, it's awesome, it gives me a total of 15 DR, and it's awesome. And, I was really looking forward to having some PRR and AC from it, now that armour actually matters.

Well, no. My PRR is stuck at 15, because a FVS doesn't get heavy armour proficiency, and as a WF, I can't take it either (I don't have any armour proficiency feats at all). I know I should be getting a lot more from heavy armour, but I can't even take the proficiency? Why is this Turbine?

[phillymiket]

I found another problem.

My WF FvS has Adamantine Body feat. It looks cool, it's awesome, it gives me a total of 15 DR, and it's awesome. And, I was really looking forward to having some PRR and AC from it, now that armour actually matters.

Well, no. My PRR is stuck at 15, because a FVS doesn't get heavy armour proficiency, and as a WF, I can't take it either (I don't have any armour proficiency feats at all). I know I should be getting a lot more from heavy armour, but I can't even take the proficiency? Why is this Turbine?

Arg!

I just got a Docent of Defiance which inspired me to dust off the WF FVS TR that is been shelved at lv 10.

I was going to get the Adamantine body feet (not that I mind the shrimp colored floppy epaulette and loin cloth combo on the DoD with no body feat).

Now I'm uninspired again.
.

[scoobmx]

I found another problem.

My WF FvS has Adamantine Body feat. It looks cool, it's awesome, it gives me a total of 15 DR, and it's awesome. And, I was really looking forward to having some PRR and AC from it, now that armour actually matters.

Well, no. My PRR is stuck at 15, because a FVS doesn't get heavy armour proficiency, and as a WF, I can't take it either (I don't have any armour proficiency feats at all). I know I should be getting a lot more from heavy armour, but I can't even take the proficiency? Why is this Turbine?

I have not experienced this on my fvs. Instead, I am getting BAB PRR instead of the correct BAB+6

[nolic1]

I have really just started playing the warforged race and can say it needs something. one thing that I seen here is the feat for body type should be a free racial feat that you get at lvl one.

Others as listed.
1. Change healers friend to include reconstruct to it as like humans and h-elfs and monks get bonus to heal amp but recon amp for WF.

2. Add or change the enhancement that gives them the power attack to be bonus to THF as in a +1 at rank 1 and so on to a total of +3 to attack and dmg or make a new enhancement for it.

3. Change the hate gain to critical hit bonus as instead of 10% hate gain a +2 to critical hit bonus seems more on line with the race.

4. Add enhancements that give a dex bonus to body type or add a 1 to skill use for body type like mithral fluidity feat and drop that feat.

5. Make warforged get more of a bonus with DR make it 1 AP to increase 3 points DR at rank one 6 dr rank 2 and 12 at rank 3 for the points needed to raise this is more then fair.

6. Give the 100% fort feat a change of instead of being healer friendless they get -5 to all skill checks or something because of weight added.

7. Add more docents with recon amp and /DR We are made for war anyways make it so when we equip docents they give us DR/AC this way the dex loss for wearing heavy body we get more DR. Like the Adimantium body feat gets 2DR make it 2 DR composite 4DR Mithral and 6 dr Adimantium.

8. Make the warforged have a bonus for being a fighter/barb class thats what they where made for with the above it makes them good to play and not so ugh for the first 6 lvls. After 6 when you have a few feats there not so bad they already get slammed by there - to wis and chr with a 6 to start but give them the above and I think it would work out well.

With the above changes it puts the Warforged where I feel they would be good or where they should be. See warforged should be battle ready do to the fact they where made for war so make the race feel that way even tho some might be casters they can still get a high DR which in turn mean less sp spent to keep alive.

Thanks for reading hope you do change them cause its been fun getting dropped by a group when you die or the healer heals you for say 22 with cure serious wounds or you get healed for 73 while others 125+ in to lower lvls.
This has been a high topic sense release and not of the update but the game itself. So these changes I ask for are not real game breakers just improve on the race for what it is a warrior breed.

[Truga]

I have not experienced this on my fvs. Instead, I am getting BAB PRR instead of the correct BAB+6

I could have problems because it's a really old character, and I haven't used the free LR yet. Is free LR working yet? Last I saw people saying it eats your tomes, but that was some time ago, and I haven't seen anyone whining about it since.

[Jay203]

warforged should get higher damage die for unarmed
1d8 at least

[scoobmx]

U15: here we go again with the uninspired docent design

[Arkenvis]

I could have problems because it's a really old character, and I haven't used the free LR yet. Is free LR working yet? Last I saw people saying it eats your tomes, but that was some time ago, and I haven't seen anyone whining about it since.

Character age won't matter--Warforged PRR isn't being calculated like other races. If you were to make a FvS of any other race and take the heavy armor proficiency with that character, they'd get BAB + 6 PRR.

[Truga]

Character age won't matter--Warforged PRR isn't being calculated like other races. If you were to make a FvS of any other race and take the heavy armor proficiency with that character, they'd get BAB + 6 PRR.

Yes you're correct. I get 15 PRR, 20 with DP on. Thought I was stuck with 15, but that was probably a display bug in one of the older versions, or maybe even on Lama.

Still, this doesn't make much sense. WF should get more not less PRR if anything. At least with adamantine and mithral body, since they cost a feat, and are next to impossible to swap out. And composite plating should probably count as light armour as far as PRR goes, to offset the healing malus a bit. I really hope their DR gets revamped when enhancements update hits..

[Arkenvis]

Yes you're correct. I get 15 PRR, 20 with DP on. Thought I was stuck with 15, but that was probably a display bug in one of the older versions, or maybe even on Lama.

Still, this doesn't make much sense. WF should get more not less PRR if anything. At least with adamantine and mithral body, since they cost a feat, and are next to impossible to swap out. And composite plating should probably count as light armour as far as PRR goes, to offset the healing malus a bit. I really hope their DR gets revamped when enhancements update hits..

Healing penalty or not, composite plating should get light armor PRR because it gives similar limitations to leather armor for armor check penalties, arcane spell failure, and max dexterity. Currently, composite plating gives no PRR at all (like robes/outfits), and mithral body only provides 1/2 BAB instead of 1/2 BAB +2 (light armor). One might even argue that mithral body should give medium armor PRR of 2/3 BAB + 4, though I won't since it's considered "light armor". I do think that warforged need a druid friendly medium armor body selection, like "Darkwood Body" though. Composite plating giving light armor PRR would provide a slight damage mitigation edge to WF wizards, sorcerers, and monks* over their fleshy counterparts, versus the current system where builds without feats to spare on mithral/adamantine body (like a WF rogue) are suffering from a lack of damage mitigation on top of the healing penalty.

When I tested the body feats earlier this week, I filed a bug report stating that WF were not getting the correct PRR values. I strongly suggest that everyone else with a warforged character do the same, so that it can be fixed.

*I'm unsure how the earth stances (which grant a small amount of PRR) would interact with warforged armor PRR in the current implementation. Ideally, they would stack since the earth stance PRR source is a feat.

[Truga]

Actually, composite plating doesn't have a max dex bonus (i.e. infinite), and I think it doesn't have any check penalty either. It does have a 5% arcane spell failure, though.

But yes, I agree. It would be especially nice on rogues if it counted as light armour.

[darkvirus]

Your post is a bit ranty but true.

You have to pay to play a wf but its not a benefit.

- no access to dragonmarks
- unable to use about 1/3 of items in game
- rust monsters do special damage to you
- must spend a feat to have heavy armor, even if you are a fighter
- more difficult to heal

I think the only benefit is a built in deathward and underwater action item.

I still luv my wf characters, I have 4 but its more of a drawback than a perk and you pay for it.

I think everyone also forgot about bard songs(Spellsong Vigor and Sustaining Song is effected by Warforged resistance but not by Bard Song Magic, Devotion, Potency, ext) not working or less efective for WF. It upsets me as a Bard that it makes me that much more usesful. When ever I see a blue bar of an arti join the party I say please dont be a WF.

Also: absolutely no class specific docients, this bites in particular for WF monks, who have no way to get reinforced fists other than the Sentinels bracer's, but there's others who suffer similarly.

I have been complaining about this sense the utility vest came out. I made a WF rogue when they first added the repeaters to Mechanic(stopped playing when they broke repeaters).

Name Docents by level

1 No Minimum Level Docents
2 Minimum Level 2 Docents
3 Minimum Level 4 Docents
4 Minimum Level 5 Docents
5 Minimum Level 6 Docents
6 Minimum Level 8 Docents
7 Minimum Level 10 Docents
8 Minimum Level 12 Docents
9 Minimum Level 14 Docents
10 Minimum Level 16 Docents
11 Minimum Level 18 Docents
12 Minimum Level 20 Docents
13 Minimum Level 22 Docents
14 Minimum Level 23 Docents

Total of 105

only 9 20+(epic) only one that seems good is Epic Docent of Grace (the docent it self has a **** drop rate). Everything is caster gear with a few tank/melee who wants to heal that :P.

an easy way to fix this is make some named craftibles. Say the utility vest + "XXX" = utility vest shard which can now be put on anything form cloth for the monk/rogue or a docent for those artis.

[Ushurak]

/signed

bump

[0akenshield9]

I'm totally in favor of a lot of these suggestions.

- Autogrant body feat: Absolutely. Blowing a feat on what is supposed to be a 'premium' race to get armor comparable to a non-WF is a little silly.

- Healer's Friend: I'd maybe be for cost reductions, probably not amped up bonuses. I do think WF should be harder to heal...that's their weak spot. You should have to go through considerable effort to negate those weaknesses. To that end, Healer's Friend has always been broken with the small rate of return vs. point cost for the higher tiers of it.

- DR/PRR changes: Absolutely. I say ditch the DR for the adamantine plating altogether as it's now essentially an exception to the rule of how damage mitigation works in the new U14+ system. DR was converted to PRR for the Fighter Stalwart Defender stance changes. Should be the same for body plating. Make it a % so it can scale with level. Agreed that enhancements for more PRR should be available as well to amp up the base PRR (that used to be DR/Adamantine).

- More docents: Yup. In particular, a sore spot with me is that the dragontouched docent is essentially a non-starter for higher level content. And, given the effort you have to put in to make a decent one, it's essentially off the radar for mid level content also. This is a shame, because I think the crafting/grind setup for Greensteel works well as the payoff is worth the effort put in. Dragontouched armor is now completely not worth the effort (I am speaking from a melee toon's perspective).

- Construct Fortification: Pretty useless, IMHO. Not enough of it on a single item to eliminate the need for heavy fort and not enough enemies that can do fort reduction to make it worthwhile. Another strike against dragontouched.

I won't ask for the world, but I'd be a much happier construct if just the ditching of DR and replacing with more PRR would see the light of day. :-)

These are all great points. It felt pathetic the first time after the update that I ran my Warforged through a Poison spray and was killed by the Constitution damage... The LEAST they could do is make a Warforged Juggernaut prestige to aid those melees who play a Warforged because they ARE the master race, just ask the LoB!

/signed on all accords!