Possible bug with ranged combat in U14

[blerkington]

Hi,

This could be a bug, or it could just be my failure to understand the new combat system.

In a solo test (no hireling) of hard epic Lords of Dust, my character was firing his GS Lit 2 bow from a stationary position at one of the attack dogs. His combat log showed the following:

(Combat): You attack Attack Dog. You roll a 2 (+61): you grazing hit!
then
(Combat): You attack Attack Dog. You roll a 8 (+51): you hit!

So the first total (63) is higher than the second (59), yet the first total gives a grazing hit and the second one doesn't? Why is that? Are grazing hits being determined off the die roll alone, rather than the total relative to the target's AC?

Strange thing is, when I am in melee in the same quest, I am not scoring grazing hits at all. I am hitting pretty consistently, but with lower bonuses.

With my GS Lit 2 rapier:
(Combat): You attack Attack Dog. You roll a 5 (+42): you hit!

Then on some more dogs down the hall came these numbers:

(Combat): You attack Attack Dog. You roll a 2 (+52): you miss!
followed in the same chain by
(Combat): You attack Attack Dog. You roll a 9 (+42): you hit!

Again, hitting with lower totals and missing with higher ones. Is this a display issue with the combat log or is something really wrong?

One theory I've heard about this is that the new method for calculating whether or not we hit is only working with ranged combat, not melee. That would go some way towards explaining why my toon seems as effective in melee as he was before the update, but his ranged ability suddenly seems a lot worse. However, it doesn't explain why now a higher total can be worse than a lower total when hitting.

I'd be very grateful to get some help with understanding this, if it's me not getting it, or getting it fixed, if it's actually a bug.

Thanks.

[Kaisoni]

It could be working as intended o-o;

Completely guessing 60 AC (50 AC wouldn't have been enough for it to "work"):
75% chance to hit with + 51 to hit
85% chance to hit with + 61 to hit

In which situation you could have missed on a 2 with + 61 to hit, but still hit on an 8 with + 51 to hit.

I could have worked it out wrong though, and as I don't know what rounding rules it's following I may have gotten the rounding wrong, although the rounding wouldn't have changed the result.

I'd post the formula, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed...? I had to hunt a fair bit to find it on the forums (not in an official post anymore that I could find) unless I'm missing somewhere blatantly obvious that it's posted x_o;
Which seems kind of odd as it appears to be implemented in the game at the moment for at least ranged attacks.

Not sure about the melee though, I've been quite confused about that myself.
Your numbers seem to imply that the new system is implemented for melee, but without glancing blows on a 2+ die roll. Also, as you said it seems easier to hit with melee than it does with ranged. I went out into the gianthold explorer area on my level 16 ranger and managed to get some glancing blows on a roll of 3 at some points with my bow. But hitting stuff with my swords (which I have about 10 less to-hit with) I seemed to be able to hit stuff on a 2 just fine.

Out of curiosity I decided to take my level 12 sorcerer into gianthold who was dual wielding sceptres.
I managed the following somehow:
(Combat): You attack Wyrm Cult Eviscerator. You roll a 11 (-3): you hit!
...what?
However, there were no glancing blows when I did miss.

So, maybe they have implemented the new system for melee's, but with a larger boost to their chance to hit and no glancing blows when they do miss (maybe so that rogues can't sneak attack on anything but a 2 even if they don't build to hit?), but ranged attacks are using an unaltered version of the new system, glancing on anything but a 1?

All just speculation, I could be way off, or just completely not making any sense ^^;

[blerkington]

Kaisoni,

Thank you for taking the time to reply (edit: and for doing your testing too).

I am glad to hear that other people are noticing these anomalies. I haven't been able to spend much time since the update testing my character, but it was obvious as soon as my first post u14 fight that something is very different. And not consistently so.

It seems like Turbine has its hands full at the moment dealing with lots of other more broken things. They did make an effort to explain how the new to hit system would work; I read and re-read that post as carefully as I could, but what I'm seeing doesn't appear to be the same as what was described. Your explanation did get the point through to me about how a lower die roll can cause a miss even when the attack bonus is higher.

Since the effort was made to describe how the new system works, it would be nice for a follow-up to let us know if it was only partially implemented or there are bugs. What I'm seeing now seems like a mixture of both. While I wouldn't be happy with the power of my beloved main toon being downgraded, what I would like most of all is to understand what is going on.

Take care (and +1 for contributing to the discussion and helping me).

[toaf]

ya ranged has gotten "diffrent" hope its not broken but it is fun taking a training dummy down in 3 seconds

[Kaisoni]

No problem, I'd quite like to know what's going on aswell =/

Did some more testing, this time in Acid Wit on hard on my level 16 ranger.

Melee:
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 6 (+33): you miss!
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 7 (+33): you hit!

Ranged:
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 7 (+46): you grazing hit!
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 8 (+46): you hit!
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 7 (+51): you hit!

So... I'm effectively missing 5% more with my ranged weapons despite having 13 more attack bonus with them? Why? Getting grazing hits does not make that a fair trade-off, especially as weapon effects and imbue effects don't seem to apply on the grazing hits. Not to mention that critical hits still fail to confirm if the confirmation roll misses regardless of if it would have been a grazing hit or not.

Nerf to ranged combat? Bug? I hope it's the latter =|;

[Isolani]

Yeah, I do seem to get a lot of grazes now with ranged, and the numbers you have there look pretty odd. You hit on a 40 with melee and graze on a 53 with ranged. Doesn't make much sense.

[Cyr]

Yeah, the to hit system is completely screwed up. It appears the changes are working for ranged combat and not melee and are also not working correctly for ranged (shocker I know).

[rossiza]

ok, so its not just me who cant hit the broad side if a barn now.

[Kaisoni]

One idea I just had, is that maybe the bonus for being proficient with a weapon (flat +25% chance to hit added on) is applying for each weapon that you're holding that you're proficient with?
So if you're dual wielding and proficient with both weapons you automatically hit on a 10+?
Explains my sorc's ability to hit on an 11 with a -3 to hit, I'm going to guess a CR 15 fighter monster has more than 8 AC.

I'll test my hit rate while holding just one weapon later hopefully.

[Kaisoni]

Hmm, maybe not then.

Acid Wit on Hard again:

Maul:
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 5 (+35): you grazing hit!
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 6 (+35): you hit!
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 7 (+35): you hit!

Also on the Maul:
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 5 (+40): you hit!
But to prove it's not just a case of being the old to hit system:
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 3 (+45): you grazing hit!


Single Short Sword:
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 6 (+33): you grazing hit!
(Combat): You attack Acidstone Elemental. You roll a 7 (+33): you hit!

So, my theory was wrong. And oh hey, look, grazing hits. So they only apply when fighting with a single weapon then?

[ZzpxpzZ]

Perhaps the system is implemented for both ranged and melee combat, however the 25% to hit bonus for being proficient is not applying properly on ranged at all.

This seems to more closely represent the current circumstanes because when I was looking at it before this came to live, it seemed that while it would be difficult to completely push misses on 2 off the table, it would certainly not be that hard to maintain a reasonable to hit chance, far more than what my ranged friends have been reporting they have been seeing.

[Jay203]

don't forget we have been moved to the % hit system
so a roll of 2 is 10% while a roll of 5 would be 25%, we're essentially rolling against the % chance to hit with the d20

at least that's how i'm seeing this
but it's weird seeing the ranged getting **** loads of grazing hits instead of actual hits... could be bugged
would need dev to confirm it

[slimkj]

Thanks for the noting and testing, all. This certainly confirms what I've been seeing; an inconsistent experience. It looks like my to hit is far higher than it was but I graze more often and when I do it's not consistent.

It's funny... I pay little attention to dice rolls - usually just watch if a number comes off the mob's head or not - but without even looking something just didn't feel right about ranged combat. I hadn't realised how easily you could notice a small change like this.

[Kaisoni]

Perhaps the system is implemented for both ranged and melee combat, however the 25% to hit bonus for being proficient is not applying properly on ranged at all.

This seems to more closely represent the current circumstanes because when I was looking at it before this came to live, it seemed that while it would be difficult to completely push misses on 2 off the table, it would certainly not be that hard to maintain a reasonable to hit chance, far more than what my ranged friends have been reporting they have been seeing.

Actually that makes a lot more sense, I can't believe I considered that melee was getting double the bonus and completely failed to consider that it might have just been ranged not getting it xD;
Then again, I wonder why on earth it's any different for ranged at all x_o;

[Eladiun]

In Purge the Heretics Elite...

[blerkington]

Hi,

Thanks to all of you for contributing to this thread.

Take care.