Bards seem just really lousy this update especially melee bards

[maddmatt70]

I have been running my bard rabiez and my bard hangover this update. My bard rabiez is a pure level 20 warchanter strength based with very good healing capabilities and my bard hangover is a pure level 20 cc/healing bard. Rabiez is a fatesinger and Hangover is a magistrate.

I am definitely more pleased with hangover vs. rabiez first of all. Hangover has 44 enchantment dcs coming into this update, also has an o.k. greater shout and glitterdust dc, and fascinate. She has taken up the arcane spot on a number of quests and done fine in that role and seems to work well with an artificer type and healer and potentially could be primary healer in a heavy dps group.

Rabiez really struggles because she loses out to fvs/cleric exalted angels when it comes to healing power, she misses a ton now and of course power attack is a wasted feat on her (she has 40 strength and some to hit gear), and has meager sub 600 hit points. Really the best feature Rabiez has is fascinate. Inspire Courage is alot less effective although she does play inspire recklessness which is useful. Rabiez just feels like a buffbot without displacement that she can cast on others and less effective songs then last update.

I know that bard is the least played class in game, but can you devs throw us a bone for god sakes.

[voodoogroves]

Amen.

Honestly, I had ideas about where I want to take my most-primary characters. I've got a stable, but mostly specialists that I leveled while someone else was leveling. My core isn't that large, but in my mind one was/is going to be a bard again.

Until the big enhancement update, I'm still steering clear. If I were to tell you who I was going to do and the direction I was going to take them on a TR BEFORE MOTU it's a different thought on optimal than today ... and it will change after the enhancement update.

[phalaeo]

That's odd. I feel like Bards got a huge boost this update. I like playing mine more than ever now.

[Jasparion]

That's odd. I feel like Bards got a huge boost this update. I like playing mine more than ever now.

Are you talking about 20+ or levelling to 20?

Next TR I will be a pure Spellsinger and another will be pure Warchanter. Just wondering whether we should consider delaying until after an Enhancements pass (which may well be half a year away or more... or never).

[Gratch]

I'd say it feels like melee bards are currently on the down but part of that is the direct destiny bump. Right now certain classes (wizard, fighters, barbs, monks) have obvious destinies that directly push their obvious build - dps/dc's/etc. As a few weeks go by and people figure out what to twist, get melee type toons to the melee destinies (and as the devs nerf the overpowerful) you'll see some semblance of balance come back.

Then the update 15 enhancement redo (if that's still coming then) will rescramble it all and the DOOM/GLOOM posts will hit again with everyone feeling shorted or over amazed by what others get - and then another balance patch for that and more figuring stuff out.

Not to trash on the barbs 2k+ damage crits we're seeing, but my wizard does KILL per trash mob attack and does it 10% more often with the bard's +4 int song. Plus 10% better CC. Plus bards get to heal, fascinate, Otto's Irresistable and some do CC while others add in the hits. The hits just seem low on the hitting bards until you dreadnaught up yo bard.

It's good that barbs have a ton of HP's... since they can't be displaced anymore and it's annoying to self displace with rage going. (Though luckily for them they're probably missed and now dodge more than pre-update.)

So I say too soon for the doom and gloom on bards. Non direct destiny melee builds just take more time right now. I would ask for some more heroic stuff for them, but that's not useful until we see the heroic enhancement redo. I'll save my dev's please make them moar better pestering for the Lama where the devs respond.

[Noctus]

The buffs of a bard are good as ever.

What i feel more and more is a weakness in personal power, in that what you do after you sang the songs and between rebuffs. May it be personal DPS with a Warchanter, or CC/Healing with a Spellsinger/Virtuoso.

Buffing the personal power of a Bard is not important for overall balance, in differnece to what bufing his buffpower could cause. Even stronger he wont reach the personal DPS of a dedicated melee, or the CC/Damage/Healingpower of a Fullcaster.

Bards need a hand in this regard. And also before level 20 kicks in.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

The Devs will likely do something to buff up bards LONNNGGGG before they get around to sorting out Monk issues

[maddmatt70]

The Devs will likely do something to buff up bards LONNNGGGG before they get around to sorting out Monk issues

Monks overall are very good right now. They have bugs sure, but overall they are still very good. Bards on the other hand have been flat out ignored for the last 2 years or so and the spell pass was a slap in the face. The devs plain old forgot that bards existed when they did the spell pass - no dot spell, no sonic damage buff, they reduced the duration of enchantment spells, and no new spells at all. I have no idea what the enhancement pass is going to bring, but other then Breca's work on Fatesinger I am less then optimistic where the devs and bards are concerned. There is a reason why the Bard Class is the least popular class in DDO..

[azrael4h]

Rabiez really struggles because she loses out to fvs/cleric exalted angels when it comes to healing power, she misses a ton now and of course power attack is a wasted feat on her (she has 40 strength and some to hit gear),

Where are you running? While my Bard isn't at cap, she's had no issues running with PA on out in Vale elites (level 17 right now). On some mobs I may have to turn it off, but largely to-hit hasn't been an issue. THF, so not as high a penalty as TWF, in case that's what you use. I have some to-hit gear, crafted to-hit goggles and Sora Kell, but not exceptionally geared.

Now her healing is way down from before, and I already wasn't having fun playing her, but as far as melee goes, nothing has seemed to change. Biggest issue is the trap DC bug; with a buffed up 22 INT, +15 gear, GH, and so forth, she no longer is capable of dealing with traps. I had planned to rebuild her, but after testing, I probably won't have to.

[maddmatt70]

Where are you running? While my Bard isn't at cap, she's had no issues running with PA on out in Vale elites (level 17 right now). On some mobs I may have to turn it off, but largely to-hit hasn't been an issue. THF, so not as high a penalty as TWF, in case that's what you use. I have some to-hit gear, crafted to-hit goggles and Sora Kell, but not exceptionally geared.

Now her healing is way down from before, and I already wasn't having fun playing her, but as far as melee goes, nothing has seemed to change. Biggest issue is the trap DC bug; with a buffed up 22 INT, +15 gear, GH, and so forth, she no longer is capable of dealing with traps. I had planned to rebuild her, but after testing, I probably won't have to.

Epic Elite which I thought was in my OP doh. Epic normal any class works.. Leveling heroic levels is well levelling and by definition relatively easy. Epic hard will eventually get changed I think so really do not want to comment on that.

[Aerendil]

As was mentioned, it *seems* like Bard melee dps is down only because others have progressed and Fatesinger doesn't seem to offer great improvements there.

But if specced for it, Fatesingers will be doing fine with sonic damage (chord of disruption has some major damage to it, not to mention Harmonic Resonance + greater shout and/or Cacophony procs.

[maddmatt70]

As was mentioned, it *seems* like Bard melee dps is down only because others have progressed and Fatesinger doesn't seem to offer great improvements there.

But if specced for it, Fatesingers will be doing fine with sonic damage (chord of disruption has some major damage to it, not to mention Harmonic Resonance + greater shout and/or Cacophony procs.

No not all because any class can be a fatesinger or shadowdancer or fury of the wild or etc., but the reality is that the base class is still wizard, fighter or bard for e.g.. A wizard that is a fatesinger is a better fatesinger then a bard and the same can be said of a fighter that chooses fatesinger as well or if we look at bards that choose shadowdancer for e.g..

[Aerendil]

No not all because any class can be a fatesinger or shadowdancer or fury of the wild or etc., but the reality is that the base class is still wizard, fighter or bard for e.g.. A wizard that is a fatesinger is a better fatesinger then a bard and the same can be said of a fighter that chooses fatesinger as well or if we look at bards that choose shadowdancer for e.g..

Well, that same argument can be said about any ED, really. I could argue that Fighters make better Furies than my Ranger; or that Artificers get more out of Shiradhi than most archers (due to % proc chances favoring multiple shot weapons, such as x-bows).

However, with Fatesinger, I do disagree. Non-Bards won't have the songs to really play around with the ED too much - they'll be somewhat limited. Not only that, but some of the ED benefits improve pre-existing songs, such as Inspire Courage, which non-Bards again won't have.
So yeah, certain elements of the ED perhaps some other classes may find very useful; but overall, this is clearly the Bard's ED and was meant for them.

As for damage - perhaps I'm just seeing the numbers on paper and not realising the in-game difference, but the ability to debuff your own damage seems fantastic. The big sonic DD on weapons, Cacophony, does 250-400 sonic damage. With harmonic resonance alone, you're now proc'ing for 375-600 damage. Lit2 territory.

Throw in Reign, Dirge, Bound Fate, Turn of the Tide, etc., and that should all up very quickly and nicely.
(also note that Cacophony is now being seen on various randomly-generated lvl 20+ weapons, and is no longer restricted to just eEdge).

[Dingleburr]

Monks overall are very good right now. They have bugs sure, but overall they are still very good. Bards on the other hand have been flat out ignored for the last 2 years or so and the spell pass was a slap in the face. The devs plain old forgot that bards existed when they did the spell pass - no dot spell, no sonic damage buff, they reduced the duration of enchantment spells, and no new spells at all. I have no idea what the enhancement pass is going to bring, but other then Breca's work on Fatesinger I am less then optimistic where the devs and bards are concerned. There is a reason why the Bard Class is the least popular class in DDO..

Yeah, so... fatesinger - we get to spend epic AP on abilities that are largely useless.

- (Effects): You have multiple effects granting a Morale bonus to Fortitude Saving Throws that do not stack. ( Greater Heroism and O Fortuna )
- (Effects): You have multiple effects granting a Morale bonus to Reflex Saving Throws that do not stack. ( Greater Heroism and O Fortuna )
- (Effects): You have multiple effects granting an Enhancement bonus to Jump Skill that do not stack. ( Jump and Masked Ball )

Awesome.

[Gorbadoc]

Well, that same argument can be said about any ED, really. I could argue that Fighters make better Furies than my Ranger; or that Artificers get more out of Shiradhi than most archers (due to % proc chances favoring multiple shot weapons, such as x-bows).

By way of contrast, my Favored Soul is good* in the new epic content independent of his epic destiny. Most of his usefulness still comes from the base class.

*: Actually, the changes to combat mean he'll eventually need a reincarnation. That still supports Matt's orginal point, though: The base class is good enough that, even though he's optimized for the old system, my favored soul is still an effective build for now.

I can reasonably drop Exalted Angel, take Avenging Light as my Twist, and no matter which destiny I'm working on, I'll have a very functional character. I don't think the equivalent can be said for bards; at a glance, it looks like an epic bard MUST lean heavily on Fatesinger abilities to be competitive.

[mourne]

If your melee focused bard was satisfactory prior to the update, then there is absolutely no reason you not be happy now. I am very happy with the Fatesinger Destiny and after twisting in a Tier 1 Exalted Angel +30 to spell power and a Tier 1 Dreadnaught .5 to PA enhancement I'm happy with my melee DPS. I routinely have +700 hit points and have no to hit issues so I run PA all the time.

A few issues that I have noticed that I have not seen others mention were:

Songs & Spells not scaling with caster level. My haste is still the same as when i was lvl 20 and my song length has not increased. I even took the few enhancements that gave 20% more length to songs and I see no change.

Aside from the above, I've very pleased.

phear: sarlona

[Gorbadoc]

If your melee focused bard was satisfactory prior to the update, then there is absolutely no reason you not be happy now. I am very happy with the Fatesinger Destiny and after twisting in a Tier 1 Exalted Angel +30 to spell power and a Tier 1 Dreadnaught .5 to PA enhancement I'm happy with my melee DPS.

So if I understand the rules correctly, to get all that you needed to work your way through:
4 Fatesinger
3 Shadowdancer
1 Dreadnaught
4 Grandmaster of Flowers
3 Unyielding Sentinel
1 Exalted Angel

I'm assuming you're a high-end player to think so little of getting all that destiny XP. This doesn't hurt your argument; it just puts it into context. Presumably, you're also packing top-notch gear-- slotted epics and multiple double-shard greensteel pieces.

My question is:
Given all that investment in Epic Destinies and equipment, would you be more powerful as another class?

One possible takeaway from your explanation is that, yes, bards are fine, but only if you work your butt off to overcome their disadvantages.

That's kind of how bards were before the update-- good melee bards had to know melee really well, so they could squeeze as much melee power as possible from their tightly-stretched AP, feats, and ability scores. The new update has a paradigm shift for melee, so maybe we just need to reassess what is and isn't essential to the would-be secondary melee build.

[AirbornedChild]

Virtuoso + Fatesinger + Blasting Chime(E3/Cloak doesn't work properly) = WIN???

I've heard that only strong pre are Virtuoso and Warchanter. Spellsinger is for new players. I think(and I'm not alone) that Fatesinger gives hugh advantage to both pre. But it gives nothing to Spellsinger.

Finally. Sad, but true. I have to agree.

Norg didn;t said anything about Virtuoso because he(as most of players) thinks that virtuoso is THE gimp. No more.

Update: Virt is just special. Fatesinger gives more power to this pre.

[phalaeo]

Are you talking about 20+ or levelling to 20?

Next TR I will be a pure Spellsinger and another will be pure Warchanter. Just wondering whether we should consider delaying until after an Enhancements pass (which may well be half a year away or more... or never).

Well... to be honest, I hated levelling my Bard, as she's 16/2/2 and I was impatient. I've enjoyed playing her at 20 cap, but I love playing her with Fatesinger. I'm trying to get through Shadowdancer currently (to get to more twists), but I keep swapping back just because I like Fatesinger that much.

Honestly, I wouldn't wait for an enhancement pass to do anything. Turbine will keep changing stuff, and if you're always waiting, you'll find you never go forward.

[phalaeo]

If your melee focused bard was satisfactory prior to the update, then there is absolutely no reason you not be happy now. I am very happy with the Fatesinger Destiny and after twisting in a Tier 1 Exalted Angel +30 to spell power and a Tier 1 Dreadnaught .5 to PA enhancement I'm happy with my melee DPS.

You've made it to EAngel already? Holy cow... I've been running an XP pot and playing 4-5 hours a day, and I'm barely half past Shadowdancer....