Make Epic Destinies accessible without P2W

[Merlin-ator]

If you have a problem with it, TR when you hit 20. Do what you did before: Get a group, get the dungeon tokens, trade for a wood heart, and go to Kruz. I don't think the difference between a 21 with destiny and a 21 without destiny will be all that huge, but if you need to, you can bank levels 21-25. You will have a hard time running Epic Elite raids, so stick to Epic Normal or Epic Casual and you'll be fine. If you still don't like it, wait until August to grind the TP and buy it.

[wax_on_wax_off]

If you have a problem with it, TR when you hit 20. Do what you did before: Get a group, get the dungeon tokens, trade for a wood heart, and go to Kruz. I don't think the difference between a 21 with destiny and a 21 without destiny will be all that huge, but if you need to, you can bank levels 21-25. You will have a hard time running Epic Elite raids, so stick to Epic Normal or Epic Casual and you'll be fine. If you still don't like it, wait until August to grind the TP and buy it.

That's exactly what I'm going to do but I'll miss raiding with my homies until then.

My advice is simple, but neigh impossible, I suggest: Stop worrying, log in, play, and try to have some fun. If it becomes a game you don't want to play anymore, then leave and find a game that suits your needs more.

Not impossible, I've got tokens to TR so I'm just going to keep doing that for the foreseeable future until I have a place in end game content again (when I get EDs).

IMO they should make 3 of the destinies F2P.

Draconic Incarnation, Fury of the Wild and Exalted Angel. Covers most build archetypes (except defensive melee it has something decent if not optimal for most builds). You couldn't swap from one destiny to another as none of those connect.

Then people that buy destinies could get their build archetype's optimal destiny and work on Twists.

Nice idea, I'd be totally fine with something like this. Perhaps even something associated with other purchases.
Purchased Monk --> you can go to level 3 or 4 in Grandmaster of Flowers
Purchased Warforged --> you can to level 3 or 4 in Legendary Dreadnought
Unlocked/Purchased Favoured Soul --> You can go to level 3 or 4 in Exalted Angel (so no freeby on that one)
Unlocked/Purchased Artificer --> You can go to level 3 or 4 in ... wait, no ED for this class!
Unlocked/Purchased Druid (in U15) --> You can go to level 3 or 4 in Fury of the Wild

Which just leaves Dragonic Incarnation as a single freeby?

[ZeebaNeighba]

It seems right now that Epic Destinies are the only pay to win stuff in the game, as in, you need it or you will be gimped. Sure, there is practically no free quests, but most f2p players spend tp to get a few packs. I put 10 bucks into the game a couple weeks after I started to go premium and other than buying the standard expansion I haven't dropped another cent. But before I bought the X-Pack, I lived off Shavarath, epic sands, the house cannith quests, reaver's refuge and Vale for end game content. And it was enough. And if I didn't spend the points, I would have dropped one of the packs for a short time. But basically, f2p players can get enough packs to have enough quests to satisfy them, at least for me.

So they have enough content to get by. They won't be gimped by any means, just because they are missing packs or races. Sure, maybe their archer would be better off as half elf instead of pure elf, but they can still do very well as a pure elf. They get 9 classes and with enough packs can get favor for up to 2 more, so they aren't missing out on much there. It's not like groups are looking for those 4 p2p classes all the time. They don't really have a harder time joining groups because they don't own those classes. Most groups are fine with a cleric instead of a favored soul, or a rogue to handle the traps instead of an arti. Assuming they have a couple high level packs (or absurdly high crafting levels), they should have decent gear. Maybe it's not what they had in mind but it gets the job done. Maybe that archer was looking for the abbot bow, well there are other bows too, they aren't a huge loss in dps. There are greensteels, the challenge earth bow, the bow of sinew, the silver longbow, etc, and most of them are almost as good as an abbot bow.
tldr, they won't be gimped by not having a particular adventure pack, given that they have a couple things, enough to keep the game from becoming repetitve at high levels.

But epic destinies are different. They provide a huge bonus to a character. There is no alternative for them. If you can't get a certain piece of gear in one slot because you don't own the adventure pack, you will do almost as well with another (unless you are making some gimmick build like a charisma specced pally using epic elyd edges and dynastic falcatas, but most builds aren't that reliant on a certain piece of equipment). But if you miss out on an epic destiny, you miss out on all those extra enhancements. They don't just get to choose a slightly weaker version, they get nothing. And those ED's actually give very noticeable buffs to a toon's ability.

I think there should be 2-5 free epic destinies, and then we can pay for another set of destinies that might match our character better. At least f2p characters aren't a burden to their party when they hit level 25. They still have something to pay for, but f2p players won't be dragging a group down by not having their destiny.

[Chai]

EDs are like +20 tomes being in the store without any possibility of accessing them any other way, even by signing up to VIP. There's no slope here.

There is a slope there. It started with +2 tomes being in the store "temporarily" a few years ago and most people telling the few who saw the big picture (what this could lead to in a few years time) to can it and accept it for what it is. The slope lead to this, through many many tiers of slightly higher benefit items distributed over a long enough period of time where no one noticed or cared, and if we think its going to stop there, we are kidding ourselves.

The entire technicality of being able to earn it in game as a rare item or some such is mere semantics. I understand peoples opinions on whether its tolerable or not is based on those semantics, but that fact doesnt really change how much power people can literally buy with real money.

When the vocal minority of game players who are the loud majority on the forums are telling everyone else to stop complaining and posting the "shut up and take my money" meme in threads discussing P2W, how can we expect Turbine to not do just that? Now that we realize what this all turned into, I bet those discussions (more like pile ons) would not happen much the same way they did years ago if this was all known.

[Xynot2]

/half signed.

While I agree that Turbine's gotta make money, they are separating the community.

Without Borking things up and giving away too much, F2P could have access to a single destiny and class specific. No twist of fate, no branching, no choice... one preselected destiny. And make it the simplest one. Tease em into buying it just like they did with the first three drow quests and the lv16 stones. You didnt think they gave those stones away without the marketing in mind did you?

Drow Quests: Lv 16
Lv Stones: Lv16
Watching the F2P peeps start buying stuff: Priceless

That was an AWESOME marketing campaign. So why not do it with Destinies?

There is a slope there. It started with +2 tomes being in the store "temporarily"

Horse pucky. There's no slope. And if Im wrong and there is a slope, it's the one from the player's wallet to Turbine's revenue stream. I think it would be perfectly fine for Turbine to put EVERYTHING into the DDO store. I would Still quest for stuff. I'm not a rich man so I wouldn't be buying everything. I do know that I would buy the ToD ring and the torc cuz I am SO tired of having the wrong toon when they drop. But I would still quest for everything else.

[Delssar]

So, nothing for you a little something for everyone else is a big no-no, because no?

I actually payed for the $80 xpac, why should something a lot of us paid for now be given out free OR exluded from us if we dont TR?

[MsEricka]

/not signed

You do NOT require epic destinies to play the game. Not getting it will not diminish your gameplay in any way.

[ZeebaNeighba]

You do NOT require epic destinies to play the game. Not getting it will not diminish your gameplay in any way.

IMO they are much stronger than any piece of loot from a p2p pack or p2p race/class compared to the next best option. F2p players can pick a slightly worse class than what they want, but the class they pick will have benefits too. Not the same with epic destinies, if you don't pay, you don't get squat. Which makes not having them MUCH more harmful to gameplay then not buying X race or pack/item etc.

[Fomori]

I think they borked their free VIP or pay FTP mindset when they introduced the expansion.

Since there is stuff in the expansions that you simply have to pay for I dont see a problem with the destinies not being unlocked another way. Its part of the MMO industry (expansions) that DDO has so far kept out of, but now its here so we'll have to deal with that.

What DDO does let you do is pay for them with TP. While you do have to pay for them somehow, time or money, I dont see it as P2W. Technically even going VIP would be P2W since you are "paying a monthly fee". However I dont think that it is, not should anyone think that the expansion content is P2W because you finally had to purchase new content.

[SardaofChaos]

As someone who bought the collector's edition, I would have absolutely no issue if a couple of the destinies were made f2p(someone listed above 3 that cover the majority of build types). Making them all free, however, would cheapen the point of having bought any of the preorders, as the epic destinies were a huge part of the package.

HOWEVER. Were they to, a year from now, make all epic destinies free, I would also have no issue. I would consider that part of my purchase as the right to play them for a year before those who didn't pay.

[gerardIII]

You could use the same logic for epic levels... yet people can level to 25

The main issue here is the current system will scale horribly. Add another 5 levels and the gap just keeps widening between those with EDs and those without.

You lost your Copper Sigil?

[wax_on_wax_off]

As someone who bought the collector's edition, I would have absolutely no issue if a couple of the destinies were made f2p(someone listed above 3 that cover the majority of build types). Making them all free, however, would cheapen the point of having bought any of the preorders, as the epic destinies were a huge part of the package.

HOWEVER. Were they to, a year from now, make all epic destinies free, I would also have no issue. I would consider that part of my purchase as the right to play them for a year before those who didn't pay.

I'm totally fine with this, make a couple of them accessible either fully or partially so that you can enjoy your purchase more by not worrying if party members are going to drag you down because they don't have access to any ED and the huge power boost that is inherent. No need to make level 5 available (3-4 is enough), no need to make the all available (3-5 is enough), no need to make twists available.

Compare a level 25 Rogue/Shadowdancer with a level 25 Rogue (no semantics about epic levels thanks). The ED build is straight away in front 21 SA/hit before anything else that SD offers, that's like putting a +40 strength tome in the store. The ED build is in front 9 assassinate DC (iirc) which is like a +18 int tome.

Really, if you don't have access to EDs then there isn't any option but to stay away from any challenging end game content unless you're content to be carried through.

[Fomori]

IMO they are much stronger than any piece of loot from a p2p pack or p2p race/class compared to the next best option. F2p players can pick a slightly worse class than what they want, but the class they pick will have benefits too. Not the same with epic destinies, if you don't pay, you don't get squat. Which makes not having them MUCH more harmful to gameplay then not buying X race or pack/item etc.

I'm not sure which logical fallacy you are making here, but there is one.

Just because they are better than loot, does not make them required.
Just because a character without them is not optimal, does not make them required.
The phrase "much more harmful" is too subjective to base a conclusion on and needs to be defined.

[sephiroth1084]

IMO they should make 3 of the destinies F2P.

Draconic Incarnation, Fury of the Wild and Exalted Angel. Covers most build archetypes (except defensive melee it has something decent if not optimal for most builds). You couldn't swap from one destiny to another as none of those connect.

Then people that buy destinies could get their build archetype's optimal destiny and work on Twists.

Start this as a Suggestion thread so I can /sign it!

[ZeebaNeighba]

Just because they are better than loot, does not make them required.
Just because a character without them is not optimal, does not make them required.

The devs will probably scale up high level quests because they assume most of DDO will have epic destinies. If they scale the quests down, then the ones that have destinies can breeze through.
So a character without destinies would be "suboptimal." Let's take a look at some of the destiny effects. I'll rip off wax on wax off here and look at shadow dancer.
A character who simply took full levels in shadow dancer (not looking at any of the specific enhancements, just the autogrants) would obtain 6d6 sneak attack damage and evasion. People are willing to give up 2 class levels to take rogue and get evasion and 1d6 sneak attack damage and the ability to put more into skills. So let's say that 2 rogue levels went p2p, and anyone with them suddenly became a level 23 instead of a 25 and couldn't level back up. Except some quests are scaled for level 25s. And that's not anywhere near all the shadowdancer effects. It gives much more than 2 levels of rogue. Such as all the extra sneak attack damage, the ability to effectively get a +6 tome in dex or int (and the fact that +6 tomes do not exist because they are too powerful shows something there), or get an implosion clicky that can basically be activated every 2 minutes. These epic destinies are giving out better bonuses than heroic class levels. Epic quests are supposed to be for level 20s, but a hypothetical level 18 with full shadowdancer could do just as well as the 20 with 2 rogue levels.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I'm not sure which logical fallacy you are making here, but there is one.

Just because they are better than loot, does not make them required.
Just because a character without them is not optimal, does not make them required.
The phrase "much more harmful" is too subjective to base a conclusion on and needs to be defined.

They are required, the power difference between a level 25 character with an ED and twists vs one without is like comparing a level 20 commoner with a level 20 wizard ...

Almost everything in the store so far as been perfectly fine to go without. The only thing in the store that is vaguely comparable is SP pots, if you're willing to continue spending money on SP pots then you can have significantly more power than your counterpart but that is restricted by being an ongoing cost. Perhaps at apt comparison is a once off buy to have unlimited SP pots? Possibly a comparable level of power increase involved ...

[Skavenaps]

free ED? no way.

You can unlock it free on the game. Its called TP by favor. Each 100, you have 25 turbine points.

Dont want to pay? Then play till you eyes bleed and you will get it free.

nuff said.

[Vellrad]

free ED? no way.

You can unlock it free on the game. Its called TP by favor. Each 100, you have 25 turbine points.

Dont want to pay? Then play till you eyes bleed and you will get it free.

nuff said.

Show me exactly in which location of the store they're located NOW and I'll use my points.

[Phemt81]

If it becomes a game you don't want to play anymore, then leave and find a game that suits your needs more.

The actual problem is that mmorpgs are constantly changing. So if someone liked this game and spent over nine thousand bucks a day to play it, now is entitled to complain if the game is completely different and he feels he wasted his money.

Just my opinion.

I am not currently playing but some friends say: "all my gear is useless, i farmed it in 3-6 months of playing and is useless, also my build is gimped now, sigh".

I can see their point, they have one.

[Skavenaps]

Show me exactly in which location of the store they're located NOW and I'll use my points.

same place where's the druid its!!

Wait till agust.