Lowering the cost of being a healer?

[Proffit]

Yesterday I did a VoD Hard and sure, it wasn't the best group in the world, but that's how it is when you join pugs.

Anyway, it ended up with a wipe at 1%, no worries, **** happens.. However, here's what I find frustrating, everyone except the healers just had some repair bills while we were out 50 heal scrolls and 2 pots each.

Sure, it's easy to say "don't join pugs", "don't use scrolls and pots", "recognize fail early and bail" or "don't play a healer" etc. But you wont be popular for long if you don't at least whip out those heal scrolls when things get tough.

I wanna join pugs, I wanna heal, I wanna support, I want the randomness in challenge that pugs can be, but so many of the harder dungeons can end up with me out 30+k and it's just not fun when it's so much cheaper being any other class.

If we are supposed to use scrolls to compliment our spell heals then consider lowering the cost? I see a lot of healers doing just that, right at the start of the fight they start throwing in scroll heals just to keep a good balance.

How bout limiting the amount of pots (1 per dungeon max?) and maybe do some re-balance on scrolls and then balance the game around that? It seems like some dungeons are balanced around the fact that you "can" have unlimited resources if you spend enough.

So, is anything being done in the expansion to lower the cost of being a healer?

/Frustrated healer

[kierg10]

LOL you think 50 scrolls and 2 pots are bad? In a horribad MA run I spent 39 pots. I was determined to finish, and as i had around 120 built up I didn't really care, but that was expensive and I will never run MA on a healer ever again.

EDIT: and yes, I support lowering the cost to be a healer.

[shadereaper33]

I apologize in advance if this sounds a bit abrasive, but why should Turbine change anything about the game because of how you choose to play your class? Sure, healing raids can get expensive if they go south, but it is a choice that you, as the healer, have to make. Similarly, after a particularly expensive run, if you feel that you have used up and abnormal amount of resources, why not ask the party to contribute to your costs? I have personally sent some SP pots to healers after bad raids when they chimed in and asked for it. If you say nothing at the end, everyone will just assume that you either didn't use any extreme amount of resources or that you are fine covering the costs yourself. I don't feel turbine should ever make changes to the game just because some people can't make a decision to just let a bad run fail, and instead continue to throw resources at the raid until it either completes or wipes.

[kierg10]

I apologize in advance if this sounds a bit abrasive, but why should Turbine change anything about the game because of how you choose to play your class? Sure, healing raids can get expensive if they go south, but it is a choice that you, as the healer, have to make. Similarly, after a particularly expensive run, if you feel that you have used up and abnormal amount of resources, why not ask the party to contribute to your costs? I have personally sent some SP pots to healers after bad raids when they chimed in and asked for it. If you say nothing at the end, everyone will just assume that you either didn't use any extreme amount of resources or that you are fine covering the costs yourself. I don't feel turbine should ever make changes to the game just because some people can't make a decision to just let a bad run fail, and instead continue to throw resources at the raid until it either completes or wipes.

Why should I heal you because your play style isn't self sufficient? Also asking for resources from others can be viewed as greedy, and often with groups that have two healers one of the healers will have all the praise heaped on them and they will receive stuff and the other won't, even though both were doing equal work.


Also have you played a healer? major SP pots cost about 20k EACH, a stack of 100 heal scrolls costs 15k, and you need to replace the heal scrolls every 2-4 raids/quests depending on how much you use them. Go play a healer and be perpetually broke then come back to us.

[voodoogroves]

I never use a pot unless I really want the completion and am willing to burn even more to get it. I also want to know from other folks in the party if they feel like drinking their way to a win, since if only one does it still may wipe. A good raid leader will ask this of folks before hand.

I compare this to when VoD just changed a few back and I joined a complete PUG for a hard run. Half the group were other folks I kinda knew and we had a quick chat at the beginning. We decided we all wanted to see what it was like and we were all willing to burn a little. SD had just got a change, we weren't sure how threat was going to work, VoD hard and elite got harder, etc.



Sorry about your pot loss; it stings. The lesson I'd take out of it is that it isn't your job to finance the success. If it is going to fail, the group is failing. You trying to float the entire thing is irrational - it isn't likely entirely your fault (or the fault of a sub set of folks).

I can usually tell how hard something is going to be in early part of a raid; first orthons in there is usually a good indicator. Use that and make your pot decisions early.

[Xandrel]

Personally I wished divines heal skill applied more towards thier healing ability. For an example an additional modifier added to healing.

I have an ol-school cleric that has a 50 heal skill, back before I knew the Heal skill was not worth investng in.

[Azre]

I don't think it's the problem with the class, clerics specialized on healing can heal... a lot. They're quite powerful as they are, specially if you have a large amount of turns.

The problem is in the mindset of players, that have unreasonable expectations of clerics. While they don't do their share to contribute to the party.

They always expect the healer to pull them through in a raid, that should not be the case. Tanks and barbarians with 800+ hp, and no healing amp whatsoever, rangers, sorcerers, wizards and artificers who can't understand that insane sp cost of having to spot heal them just because they can't move a foot forwards into mass heal range.

It's a lack of understanding of how healers work, you don't find this behavior on players who have healer alts. You just have to be a bit more careful which party you decide to join.

But if there was something that would help clerics a little bit, would be enabling extend spell to work on their aura. I still don't understand why it doesn't.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Well, my main toon is a cleric, and has been for almost the entire time I have played this game. I understand what you are saying only too well.

As has already been mentioned, you need to define how much you are willing to spend to buy a completion early on, preferably before you even step into the quest/raid. If you try to make that decision on the spur of the moment in the heat of the battle, you are likely to regret it, especially in a PUG.

The fact is, someone tossing heals in this game can carry most groups through almost anything if you are willing to spend what it takes. However, if you play like this, expect your toon to be broke and your credit card to be used to buy mana pots from the DDO store. By the way, Turbine likes the money it makes from mana pot sales in the store, so don't expect the game mechanics to change any time soon.

Most people who have played this game for a while know that you can buy a completion for them, they will gladly take it, and some will pressure you to do it. This is the reality of playing a cleric/FvS in this game, and if you don't want to deal with it, you likely should find another class to play. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but its better to know it now before you invest even more time in your current toon and hit some really difficult content.

The fact is, if you are drinking pots with regularity, you

1) need to spend time on the mechanics of how you are healing or
2) come to realize that some of the groups that you are trying to save deserve to fail, and you are doing them no favors by making them think they have no need to look at the mechanics of how they are playing their toons.

If you are playing a cleric/FvS, you are in the spotlight, you have a tremendous amount of control, and people with love/hate you based upon what you do. It can be loads of fun or a tremendous pain, depending upon your personality type and how thick your skin is.

[Meat-Head]

The problem is in the mindset of players, that have unreasonable expectations of clerics. While they don't do their share to contribute to the party.

Really, the fact that you wiped at 1% most probably means that you lacked the dps (as a party) and/or crowd control and/or had a suboptimal party composition and/or people used resources too quickly.

Actually, VoD is REALLY good at determining resource management. You should always have more blue bar than he has health. If you don't, then something is wrong (probably party, not you).

I will say this: Divines do end up shouldering the burden to PAY for fails and poor runs far far more than other classes. They really should be compensated more somehow.


Some tips:

1. Scrolls
2. Farm out SP items like bauble, twisted talisman, spell storing ring (even the base one)
3. Get SP discounts through light monks, ss bards, and/or gear like staff of petitioner (ALSO two of the new gear sets from U14 give you -10% sp cost. Dunno what/if that stacks with anything)
4. Consider creating a healbot. (I know, I know) I have a fvs I basically only use to heal raids with. He's a shroud farmer, a challenge farmer etc.. to support other toons. I have him built as an evoker, but I'm strongly considering respeccing him (mental toughnesses, max CHA, etc) to healbot JUST to prevent pot usage in raids. Besides, that's all I used him for. NORMALLY his 2800ish sp is enough. But I just hate having to drink pots. Like a lot.

[shadereaper33]

Why should I heal you because your play style isn't self sufficient? Also asking for resources from others can be viewed as greedy, and often with groups that have two healers one of the healers will have all the praise heaped on them and they will receive stuff and the other won't, even though both were doing equal work.


Also have you played a healer? major SP pots cost about 20k EACH, a stack of 100 heal scrolls costs 15k, and you need to replace the heal scrolls every 2-4 raids/quests depending on how much you use them. Go play a healer and be perpetually broke then come back to us.

You seem to have missed my point. As the healer, it is your responsibility to choose how much of your available resources you are willing to spend to get a completion. Frankly, if you chug a handful of pots, and the people you run with think that you asking for a few as reimbursement is you being greedy, you should really think hard about whether or not you want to run with them ever again. If you are having to spend 15k plat every 2-4 quests, just on heal scrolls, perhaps you need to look at how you are healing, and what gear you are using.

At the end of the day, the decision to drink a 20k pot is yours to make, and yours alone. If you choose to drink that potion to get the completion, you have to then deal with the consequences of that decision. If you choose to blow through 25-50 heal scrolls, that is a choice you make. If you don't like making those choices in your groups, then perhaps you should re-evaluate whether or not you should be playing a healer.

[WruntJunior]

I do think there should be some way to buy SP pots of some sort through plat through a favor vendor, or something like that, to cut down on the unfair cost burden of a bad run on healers. That said, if you're finding yourself losing money as a healer...you're not letting people die enough. A practice I follow on my healers (and in fact all of my casters) is, outside of certain circumstances (eLoB for example), I will only carry a few majors. As for scrolls, I count that as a cost of generally playing...a hundred heal scrolls cost less than one pot, and usually give more to a completion than that one pot ever could. As a healer, you have to essentially train your party to either play smart or die if you don't want to spend too much. Parties will tend to have an unfair dependence on you (especially pugs), but that usually means you have more pull.

One other thing, don't be afraid to get put on squelch lists by people that suck, and don't be afraid to squelch people that suck.

Edit: As a note, buy several stacks of heal scrolls at a time, and make sure you have good timing with your heals, as that can save you a lot of resources. If you know how much of a person's bar is going to be gone from an attack and how much a scroll will heal, you know when to hit them so as to not overheal them. Don't listen to melees that complain about you almost letting them die when you're doing this unless they're in a real dangerous situation, though (for example, Suulo doesn't do very spikey damage to a raid tank...however, Horoth does at times). Efficient healing really just takes a good bit of practice, and setting bars for what you're willing to spend.

[Proffit]

I hear what most of you are saying but what other class has to do this?
Hmm, in that group I'm willing to spend a 100k plat if necessary, in this only 5k etc. It's that we have to make such a decision that I find frustrating. I have never had to think like that on any other class I have played.

Tbh, scrolls are ok as a mechanic, pots tho, and the fact that they have no real limit, that I find to be a broken mechanic.

1 pot/dungeon would go a long way to make it less frustrating for me. I want to be able to give everything I have to do my job, just as I do with every other class I have, but when healing, it costs infinite amounts more to accomplish.

And yes, I am not super well geared, and getting those sp items is a lot of work and luck. That is also why I am asking this in the beta forum, are there any new items that would help make healing less expensive at times?

[shadereaper33]

I hear what most of you are saying but what other class has to do this?
Hmm, in that group I'm willing to spend a 100k plat if necessary, in this only 5k etc. It's that we have to make such a decision that I find frustrating. I have never had to think like that on any other class I have played.

Tbh, scrolls are ok as a mechanic, pots tho, and the fact that they have no real limit, that I find to be a broken mechanic.

1 pot/dungeon would go a long way to make it less frustrating for me. I want to be able to give everything I have to do my job, just as I do with every other class I have, but when healing, it costs infinite amounts more to accomplish.

And yes, I am not super well geared, and getting those sp items is a lot of work and luck. That is also why I am asking this in the beta forum, are there any new items that would help make healing less expensive at times?

um, how about you just limit yourself to 1 pot per dungeon. its really easy to do, you just leave all of your pots except for 1 in the bank. then, you can only drink 1 unless you find more.

[morticianjohn]

As a raid leader I replace pots used whenever possible even on a failure. I mostly play divine classes and I enjoy the challenge and don't care that I'm always broke. To make matters worse my FvS is also my crafter so I usually decon items rather than sell them. Somehow I get by and I'm sure you will too. At one point I was doing LoB every three days with many new players each time using 2-3 pots per cometion if we didn't get a tank I would tank on my FvS which usually was a 4-7 pot completion. At one point I drained all of the cash from all of my Alts lol

[varusso]

(1) Make sure your gear is actually optimized for healing.
(2) If someone is a black hole for heals, tell them to work on their amp or die.
(3) Dont sink your SP into someone who is being an idiot. They can drink their own HP pots or use their own heal scrolls etc.
(4) Expect classes that have easy access to self-healing to take care of themselves except in the big fights. They need to learn or die.
(5) Cast fewer buffs. Most of the buffs players toss out are completely unnecessary and a waste of SP. Delegate essential buffs to other classes who can also cast them.
(6) Get your ship buffs. These save everyone ALOT of SP and only make you better. If someone complains that ship buffs are cheat blah blah, they can bring their own alternate sources of "non cheat" buffs, or they can die.
(7) Dont drink any more pots than you are comfortable with. There is absolutely no reason to limit everyone else's pot usage to make a minority of players happy. If your group "expects" you to use multiple pots, then you can by god expect them to pony them up.
(8) Its not greedy to ask others to help foot the bill. Everyone should be willing to help with the cost -- unless the fault lies with the healer for having poor SP/resource management. Anyone who has a problem with it isnt worth running with anyway.
(9) You dont have to use your BEST pot. Most times, you know when it is about to go south well ahead of time. Drink smaller pots in preparation, instead of the big ones.
(10) Using more than an occasional pot should be an exception, not a rule. If you are using many, often, the problem is likely NOT with the groups.
(11) Dont be afraid to speak up. If you play the meek little nannybot, you will be walked on and expected to thank them for the privilege. If folks arent carrying their own weight or being a significant drain on resources, they will CONTINUE to do so until you tell them. You dont have to be a jerk to educate others on the proper way to treat their healers. Anyone kicking up a fuss over proper raid etiquette isnt worth running with a second time anyway.
(12) Scroll cost (and wands) are part of the cost of the class, just like pots and scrolls are part of every other class. Its something you deal with or dont play the class. I have pots, wands, and scrolls for nearly all of my toons, which I use mainly on myself, and only on others in emergencies. I already help decrease your costs by being self-contained. Anyone doing raids should have similar resources set aside for that toon or not be raiding in PUGs to begin with. And yes sometimes they need to be TOLD that by the person who is footing their bill by proxy (IE: the healer).
(13) The majority of your problems are with players who are NOT on the forums. While posting a gripe here helps you to vent, it doesnt actually address the problem with the folks who are actually a part of it. In other words, you need to start talking to your groups, including other healers that you see NOT spending a bunch of resources so you can ask their advice -- assuming of course they werent just letting you foot the bill.

[Enoach]

As simple as the VoD raid is - Single room, kill minions, beat boss down, kill minions, beat boss down, kill more minions, finally kill boss. This raid holds challenges for the Primary Healing rolls as well as the Crowd Control rolls.

Reason is this raid is an endurance race and not a sprint. The problem is that most still are trying to sprint to the end. I've been in there and watch Clerics and FvS burn through their SP and then Type in OOM and basically sit back and complain about the DPS when SULU is at 80%. I've also watched as ePEEN rears its ugly head when the person that wanted to Tank gets passed over for another and now you have a TANK war with SULU turning constantly and hitting everyone instead of a single person. But I've also seen perfectly executed VoDs where the SP of the Primary Healers and CC'ers is still at a high enough level at take down time to smoke SULU with not concern.

Taking into consider this is an endurance raid, every team member has a role in SP conservation.

• Healers use of Heal scrolls (Tank, Spot) and Mass, cure Moderate (Group Healing)
• Group beside tank, move through minions taking them down together, not spread out and chaotic but methodical, reduces incoming damage, keeps group together and maximizes take down time. Which also reduces Curses. Also consider this-Where are they going anyway the room is not that big.
• Group staying behind SULU - Tank doing a good job keeping the focus so that they are the only one getting hit.
• Use of non-SP healing, such as Burst/Aura from Clerics and Light Wound Healing From FvS cap can go a long way in reducing SP and Scroll use. And works especially well with a group that works together.
• Effective Crowd Control - be it Webs, holds, stuns and trips goes a long way when you are in an enclosed area trapped with your prey.

The real problem is that groups no longer see SP potions as "hit the fan" solutions, they see them as how to complete quests normally, and never consider why.

As a person that enjoys playing the primary healing role I do only come with the # of potions I'm willing to spend as well as the number of scrolls I'm willing to spend. So far I am far ahead on resources in the Gain vs Loss.

[kierg10]

ok just for the record: I just wanted to finish the raid as I wanted to do it once and never see it again, and have never drank more than maybe 5-9 before, whicch happened in one insanely horrible run of the shroud....still not really worth it, but other than that I don't use many except for a few misclicks on my pots.

But my main problem is that I don't have to use many because I rely heavily on heal scrolls, and can often finish quests without using all my SP. It can just get expensive, especially when I am also crafting stuff or trying to gear up an alt a bit which really dilutes my resources.

[Pewf]

As a mainly divine player I get this ''feeling'' with any pug raids I join. If the DPS is lacking or the CC isn't landing, or people are just being stupid ... I wouldn't dare chug any pots. I would rather wipe.

That said - I have drank pots before, on my first raid experience, when I am still learning to heal a raid, or if I am desperate for a completion. (I'm looking at you 15 pots on a normal abbot )

If it hasn't been mentioned before, I would try and aim to get:
*Mysterious Bauble from The Weapons Shipment in Amrath
*Couple Vile Blashpemy's from Accursed Ascension (Abbot Raid)
*Staff of the Petitioner (-10% SP) or a Green Dragon Armor! (From the expansion)

Also when I notice my mass heal is on timer, I use my mass cures for MAX only and use a maximize clicky for some cheap burst healing if the group is taking a lot of quick damage.

Hope this helps.

[morticianjohn]

ok just for the record: I just wanted to finish the raid as I wanted to do it once and never see it again, and have never drank more than maybe 5-9 before, whicch happened in one insanely horrible run of the shroud....still not really worth it, but other than that I don't use many except for a few misclicks on my pots.

But my main problem is that I don't have to use many because I rely heavily on heal scrolls, and can often finish quests without using all my SP. It can just get expensive, especially when I am also crafting stuff or trying to gear up an alt a bit which really dilutes my resources.

I know somewho refuse to use heal scrolls. I know some who refuse to play the healer role. Basically if you don't like it don't do it. With the exception of a couple of epic raids every quest or raid has been completed without the use of scrolls. So just decide for yourself if you want to complete the quest/raid bad enough to put some resources towards it.

[arkonas]

ok i have healers and personally i don't really see that as a complete fail. people choke at 2 points in that raid. either a the divine spend their resources too early aka 80% or choke at 5%. i love scrolls burst/aura/ fvs capstone. I can't tell you how many times i learned how to use the stuff.

honestly if your not burning stuff then its not that fun. I don't mean all your resources or more then normal. most of the time i barely use my heal scrolls raids like tod lob vod hound are one of the few times i really get to use them. Even ma as well. but honestly look at your heal scroll usage during quests. aren't you using more sp then?

anyways back to my point. I worked on my wand/scroll mastery so i could get the most out of my scrolls. if i blow through 50 scrolls and my sp i think i did good. normally the loot i just got will cover my cost of my lost scrolls. if i have to use more and pots then i let the group know hey im burning through my stuff.

always buy house k heal scrolls if your in a high enough guild. its cheaper this route as well.

remember in pugs they don't have to pay you anything. Should they yes if you earned it. if you spent all your sp and pots within first 5 mins then no you don't earn anything. sometimes you will get the shaft in it. So then you need to decide do i want to waste my stuff on them collect it up front or just watch the guilds and join those.

you want a bad vod run. doing hard vod and have a cleric sorta new and a tr fvs that joins and first thing out of his mouth when we go into the raid oh btw im not a healer and i don't drink pots. SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY you wait until were inside the raid to tell us that? wow. now that is a piece of %#^@ player there. funny part he ended up using pots and healing a little. I only gave a few things to the cleric. nothing to the fvs. I'm hoping more people will say up front about this stuff when they join not when they get in the raid.

just never fill up the last divine spot or one of them if your not going to heal others putting all the pressure on other divine. If you do at least make sure your one of the first few so they can get another.