What feats to drop for Overwhelming Crit?

[sephiroth1084]

On a pure barbarian, I think you're kinda screwed, as even on an 18/2 fighter (what I have) the choices aren't exactly attractive.

We have 7 heroic feats, 2 fighter bonus feats, and 2 epic feats (currently) to fit in:
THF
ITHF
GTHF
Power Attack
Toughness/Barb PL
Cleave
Great Cleave
Weapon Focus
Improved Critical
Improved Sunder
Stunning Blow
Overwhelming Critical

I'm thinking Toughness ends up getting kicked to the curb. As it stands now, I only have 2 ranks each in race and class Toughness on my barb. Dropping the feat and those enhancements loses me 60 HP, and frees up 6 AP. That could be used on Barbarian Con I and II (don't have currently) for another Con bracket, or +20 HP, recouping the loss of the feat, partly, if not the enhancements (and I lose 2 Intimidate).

Can't really see dumping anything else. Giving up GTHF for OC seems silly, as you're trading DPS for DPS. Sunder would be next on my list, but I've been in too many raids (forget parties!) where I'm the only one with IS, and it's too relevant for high Fort bosses to ignore.

[Fungi]

I would drop weapon focus +1 to hit isn't worth a feat.

[RabidApathy]

I would drop weapon focus +1 to hit isn't worth a feat.

Unfortunately, Weapon Focus is a prerequisite for Overwhelming Critical. So dropping it would defeat the purpose of this mental exercise.

If you mostly get stuck tanking parties/raids, I'd consider dropping Stunning Blow
If you're generally cast in a DPS role, I agree that Toughness is probable the feat to lose on a barb.
Sunder... I really like sunder and would have troubles dropping it.

[sephiroth1084]

If you mostly get stuck tanking parties/raids, I'd consider dropping Stunning Blow
If you're generally cast in a DPS role, I agree that Toughness is probable the feat to lose on a barb.
Sunder... I really like sunder and would have troubles dropping it.

I'm semi-frequently chosen to tank, and I have gear to support that (10, 20 and 30% healing amp, mostly), which is why this is a hard choice, but I don't think I can give up Stunning Blow. It's part of the reason I could stand playing a bard at all originally (when I first tried them, they felt too non-interactive), and fighting trash takes up way more time than tanking or boss-beating does.

Even with decent casters and CC/insta-kills I find I'm stunning stuff frequently and to good effect.

Really wish OC lost a prerequisite. It really doesn't need to have both Weapon Focus and Great Cleave (or even Cleave).

[Jaid314]

i've heard the sunder animation on a THF was incredibly slow. might be worth dropping?

[AylinIsAwesome]

I'd drop Toughness.

No idea what I would do on a pure Barbarian though. =\

[Chai]

Weapon focus as a requirement for OC is as bad of an idea as cleave as a requirement for FB was.

Its a useless feat expenditure that will only really be easily accomodated on pure fighters. Barbarians are going to have to get rid of toughness which will cost ~60 HP for those who took toughness 1 and 2 for class and race.

What other pure melee is going to easily fit this in currently?

I hope the enhancement pass makes multiclassing more attractive - oh wait, it doesnt from what we already know about it. It would be nice if builds didnt always fit into the 2, 6, 12, 18 level split profiles. 2 fighter + 2 monk splashes will become popular when applicable due to more feats being able to be used to fit OC in.

[whomhead]

I hope the enhancement pass makes multiclassing more attractive - oh wait, it doesnt from what we already know about it.

I'm apparently not up to speed on the latest d00oom. What do we know about the enhancement pass that makes multiclassing unattractive?

[Jaid314]

I'm apparently not up to speed on the latest d00oom. What do we know about the enhancement pass that makes multiclassing unattractive?

i think he's just complaining that 10/10 is generally a really bad idea, not so much that multiclassing in general doesn't work. ie, he doesn't like that when you multiclass, there are generally certain very specific and rather obvious (if you look for them at all) places to stop when it comes to level splits. that is, you might see someone take 6 levels of ranger, 11, or 12 levels of ranger, or 9 levels of ranger, but you will very seldom see optimised builds that stop at 7, 8, or 10 levels of ranger, because 7, 8, and 10 offer very little while 6, 9, 11, and to some extent 12 offer quite a bit more.

[azrael4h]

THF*
ITHF*
GTHF*
Power Attack*
Toughness/Barb PL
Cleave*
Great Cleave*
Weapon Focus*
Improved Critical*
Improved Sunder
Stunning Blow
Overwhelming Critical*

I'd say Stunning Blow and Toughness, since Sunder is too important for the high hp bosses. Then again, pure Barb will be forced to chose between I Sunder, O Crit, and GTHF. Hmmm... Human Barb looks much more inviting there, that extra feat will be handy.

[whomhead]

i think he's just complaining that 10/10 is generally a really bad idea, not so much that multiclassing in general doesn't work. ie, he doesn't like that when you multiclass, there are generally certain very specific and rather obvious (if you look for them at all) places to stop when it comes to level splits. that is, you might see someone take 6 levels of ranger, 11, or 12 levels of ranger, or 9 levels of ranger, but you will very seldom see optimised builds that stop at 7, 8, or 10 levels of ranger, because 7, 8, and 10 offer very little while 6, 9, 11, and to some extent 12 offer quite a bit more.

Well, none of that is any different from the current system and he mentioned the enhancement revamp. But yeah, I get what you're saying.

[dredre9987]

Drop toughness...does the 60 hp really make that much of a difference on a barb?

[zwiebelring]

I'd drop ITHF and GTHF i is not needed for any further prerquisites. I think the gain from glancing blows after THF is less compared to its price (feat).

[voodoogroves]

I think you need to decide what you want to do, and stick with it.

The cleaves are hella-fun, and great for trash clearing. Stunning blow gives you a bit of CC beyond Trip. Improved Sunder is a nice team de-buff.

I recently capped a barb life without toughness. I went the multi-cleave route and was in the same quandry you were concerning the others. For me it was a bit easier as I didn't expect to stay at cap, so Improved Sunder was right out. I also decided that even as a race w/ tactics enhancements and the fighter splash, tactics was something that if I wanted to do it, I'd want it to be central. I don't have the oodles of gear to be able to land decent stunning blows without gearing.

Is this your final incarnation? If so, I think you really need to decide where you want to position the character. My personal philosophy is that you should pick one thing and do pretty darn well, and do another decently as well to be a secondary option or fill out your utility role.


Which to give up is entirely around the role you no longer want to fill. That's the thing you're really struggling with and what is keeping you from TRing into a fighter ;-)

[AylinIsAwesome]

Slightly off-topic, but I'm wondering if Overwhelming Critical is worth dropping 2 Barb levels for 2 Fighter levels (for the needed feats).

I'm almost certain it is worth it, but I wanted the opinions of the some other people as well.

[Cold_Stele]

Drop toughness...does the 60 hp really make that much of a difference on a barb?

I'm guessing an 18/2 will be nearly 200 hp less than a pure though - 100 from a couple of eToughness feats, 60-80 from Toughness & enhancements, -24 from the Ftr levels and losing Mighty Rage.

[DrakHar]

I'm guessing an 18/2 will be nearly 200 hp less than a pure though - 100 from a couple of eToughness feats, 60-80 from Toughness & enhancements, -24 from the Ftr levels and losing Mighty Rage.

I don't understand what you just typed. The -24 makes sense, the 100 and 60-80 make no sense. Why would the 18/2 have LESS hit points because they CAN fit in toughness?

[sephiroth1084]

I'm guessing an 18/2 will be nearly 200 hp less than a pure though - 100 from a couple of eToughness feats, 60-80 from Toughness & enhancements, -24 from the Ftr levels and losing Mighty Rage.

Not following you here.

The last 2 barbarian levels gets you:
-4 HP (d12 HD vs. a d10)
-2 Con from Mighty Rage (-20 HP)
-2 Str from the capstone
-10% glancing blows damage from the capstone
-DR 1/--

The 2 levels of fighter gets you:
-2 feats
-1 Str from enhancement
-Haste Boost I (likely irrelevant with twists from Legendary Dreadnought available)
-access to +1 tactics

No idea where you're getting 200 HP from.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Not following you here.

The last 2 barbarian levels gets you:
-4 HP (d12 HD vs. a d10)
-2 Con from Mighty Rage (-20 HP)
-2 Str from the capstone
-10% glancing blows damage from the capstone
-DR 1/--

Also another -2 STR from Mighty Rage.

[Cold_Stele]

I don't understand what you just typed. The -24 makes sense, the 100 and 60-80 make no sense. Why would the 18/2 have LESS hit points because they CAN fit in toughness?

From the OP -

On a pure barbarian, I think you're kinda screwed, as even on an 18/2 fighter (what I have) the choices aren't exactly attractive.

We have 7 heroic feats, 2 fighter bonus feats, and 2 epic feats (currently) to fit in:

(snip)

I'm thinking Toughness ends up getting kicked to the curb...

So 18/2 has to drop Toughness to fit in Overwhelming Crit. For my pure Barb I'm probably going to take two eToughness feats (because there's nothing apart from OC that looks that appealing) hence the big gap in 18/2 and pure Barb HP.