R.I.P Kensai

[Zerkul]

With the new possible combinations with the epic destinies i think Kensai just dropped to the lower position in the DPS chain: now everyone can have Haste Boost 30%, this makes properly DPS specced rangers, paladins, monks, barbarians better DPS-Wise than Kensai is.

On the top of this add the Nerf to the Kensai Power Surge Bonus.

Add as well the need of new feats to keep up a good Kensai: no more huge amount of toughness feats ... you need to take cleave and great cleave even if you are TWF to get the increase in DPS from the epic feat. So less HP than before.



There are fewer reasons to be Kensai now. Correct me if i'm wrong.

BR,
Z.

[Ravoc-DDO]

With the new possible combinations with the epic destinies i think Kensai just dropped to the lower position in the DPS chain: now everyone can have Haste Boost 30%, this makes properly DPS specced rangers, paladins, monk, barbarians better DPS-Wise than Kensai is.

I lol'd

[ulticleo]

kensai will still out dps paladins, SD, and rangers (against non-FE), but not by as large a margin.

but generally, yes. for a class and PRE that should be contending for top dog dps - meh.

epic destinies and levels are giving all classes now access to features that used to be exclusive, making heroic levels somewhat less meaningful (for melee/range):
30% haste boost
leap of faith
tons of hp
sp bar
full rank umd
and more

[LeLoric]

kensai will still out dps paladins, SD, and rangers (against non-FE), but not by as large a margin.

but generally, yes. for a class and PRE that should be contending for top dog dps - meh.

epic destinies and levels are giving all classes now access to features that used to be exclusive, making heroic levels somewhat less meaningful (for melee/range):
30% haste boost
leap of faith
tons of hp
sp bar
full rank umd
and more

The margin actually increases even with the silly psionic changes to power surge. Remember kensai have multiplicative modifiers and more of them than any other class the higher the base dmg change is the more a kensai benefits over other classes.

[krogyy]

The margin actually increases even with the silly psionic changes to power surge. Remember kensai have multiplicative modifiers and more of them than any other class the higher the base dmg change is the more a kensai benefits over other classes.

i think this is no longer true with haste boost available to all.

the +3 crit on 19-20 that FB gets is a greater multiplicative modifier than what is left that is unique to kensai.

[LeLoric]

i think this is no longer true with haste boost available to all.

the +3 crit on 19-20 that FB gets is a greater multiplicative modifier than what is left that is unique to kensai.

10% double strike, 1 crit range, and 3 more haste boosts (from kensai) are a larger multiplier plus most kensai will get overwhelming critical and most barbs will not be able to without other dps loss.

[Cetus]

10% double strike, 1 crit range, and 3 more haste boosts (from kensai) are a larger multiplier plus most kensai will get overwhelming critical and most barbs will not be able to without other dps loss.

A barb will most definitely be able to acquire overwhelming crit, they will probably lose out on epic toughness in order to get weapon focus to qualify for it, but they'll certainly get the overwhelming crit.

Cleave, Great Cleave, IC:Slashing, PA, Stunning Blow, Improved Sunder, 3 THF lines if you'd like, weapon focus, overwhleming crit.

Only missing feat there is a toughness- can slot that in for a THF feat perhaps. Well worth the overwhelming crit.

[Cetus]

My feelings on this resonate with the OP's. Hitpoints are definitely going to drop, especially if the kensei pursues LD and loses on the way higher hp provided by fury of the wild. Whirlwind provides quite a bit of extra DPS, I played with it on lama for a bit and I liked what i was seeing. Fitting that in on a kensei is rediculously difficult, I initially decided to live without it- but its a pretty powerful ability to cycle into your attacks that would synergize nicely with LD tactics.

All in all its just a sad story for now.

[LeLoric]

Kensai are in good shape.

Remember both the extended crit range from kenasi III and the 10% doublestrike from 20 ftr mean that Kensai get more of a benefit from any increase given via the epic destinies than other classes. As well as base dmg bonuses and crit bonuses playing well with a lot of the expanded crit ragne and multiplier effects that are being added.

Kensai will be popular after the update and some of the best dps available.

Kensai work well with legendary dreadnaught, fury of the wild, and shadowdancer, as well as the kensai monk hybrids that will love being grandmasters.

Full kensai AA's are now workable too with the spell point item changes.

I have about 5 different kensai builds I have thought of and would consider playing while testing the different destinies.

[Monkey_Archer]

One more thing to consider is that haste boost has technically been proxy nerfed for fighters, at least for fighters that take legendary dreadnought or twist in dreadnought abilities. Tactical feats (stunning blow, cleaves, momentum swing, etc..) gain no benefit from haste boost (ie haste boost does not speed up their animations). With all the tactics spamming that LD fighters must do now, they are actually only auto-attacking maybe half the time, and therefore are only really getting half the benefit from haste boost.
I haven't done the math yet and proper testing is complicated, but I'm almost certain that for most legendary dreadnoughts, damage boost is now more dps then haste boost even on single targets, and definitely is when cleaving multiple targets.

Kensai are in good shape.

Remember both the extended crit range from kenasi III and the 10% doublestrike from 20 ftr mean that Kensai get more of a benefit from any increase given via the epic destinies than other classes. As well as base dmg bonuses and crit bonuses playing well with a lot of the expanded crit ragne and multiplier effects that are being added.

This is somewhat of a myth now. The reason kensai fighters were considered to get more benefit from base damage was because of the combination of haste boost IV in addition to the kensai/capstone benefits. Now that haste boost IV is available to all classes, (and all classes can take/twist any destiny) the only unique multiplicative benefits kensai has is just +1 crit range and 10% doublestrike. Depending on the weapon, +1 crit range and 10% double strike is quite comparable to the FB +3 multiplier boost, or the 5% doublestrike, 20% offhand that tempest rangers get.

Without counting haste boost IV, the fighter class by itself does less dps then any other base melee class (except rangers vs non-FE). The kensai PRE by itself also adds less dps then most other dps PREs.

I wouldn't go so far as to say kensai are in bad shape, but they are not in good shape either. They still deal "good" dps, but if you ask me to justify the merits of playing a purely dps-focused kensai vs a dps focused barbarian, the list of valid points is getting very small...

[jkm]

One more thing to consider is that haste boost has technically been proxy nerfed for fighters, at least for fighters that take legendary dreadnought or twist in dreadnought abilities. Tactical feats (stunning blow, cleaves, momentum swing, etc..) gain no benefit from haste boost (ie haste boost does not speed up their animations). With all the tactics spamming that LD fighters must do now, they are actually only auto-attacking maybe half the time, and therefore are only really getting half the benefit from haste boost.
I haven't done the math yet and proper testing is complicated, but I'm almost certain that for most legendary dreadnoughts, damage boost is now more dps then haste boost even on single targets, and definitely is when cleaving multiple targets.



This is somewhat of a myth now. The reason kensai fighters were considered to get more benefit from base damage was because of the combination of haste boost IV in addition to the kensai/capstone benefits. Now that haste boost IV is available to all classes, (and all classes can take/twist any destiny) the only unique multiplicative benefits kensai has is just +1 crit range and 10% doublestrike. Depending on the weapon, +1 crit range and 10% double strike is quite comparable to the FB +3 multiplier boost, or the 5% doublestrike, 20% offhand that tempest rangers get.

Without counting haste boost IV, the fighter class by itself does less dps then any other base melee class (except rangers vs non-FE). The kensai PRE by itself also adds less dps then most other dps PREs.

I wouldn't go so far as to say kensai are in bad shape, but they are not in good shape either. They still deal "good" dps, but if you ask me to justify the merits of playing a purely dps-focused kensai vs a dps focused barbarian, the list of valid points is getting very small...

The big problem is Headman's Chop. Basically, an 18 Barb/2 Fighter can net a 19-20x9 with Dwarven Axes or Great Axes giving them the exact same crit profile as a Pick with a LOT higher base damage. I wouldn't be surprised if Picks can barely get 75% of the damage output of axes.

And the poor rapier, holy ****. In there effort to keep the Khopesh from getting out of whack, they have taken a monster nerf bat to rapiers and scimmies with all of these 19-20x1s. I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of the day they are in the 60% range for damage compared to Axes. What they should have done was coded it so that it was 19-20x1 for non-finessable weapons and x1 for finessable to keep them competitive.

At the rate we are going, they can do a pass to weapons like they did armor and give us Sword, Large Sword, Axe, Large Axe, Hammer, Large Hammer because their math is the suck on balancing weapons.

[Chai]

People are bawling about paladins and rangers closing the DPS gap? Really? Its not that kensai are actually losing damage, its the fact that other classes are becomming more effective that people are concerned about?

People seem to forget that this is the class that can weild a khopesh (generic weapon type) and do parallel DPS to the eSOS (best specific named weapon in the game).

Kensai aint going anywhere soon. The fact that other long neglected classes are becomming more effective has nothing to do with it, and is actually a plus.

[DnD3]

People are bawling about paladins and rangers closing the DPS gap? Really? Its not that kensai are actually losing damage, its the fact that other classes are becomming more effective that people are concerned about?

People seem to forget that this is the class that can weild a khopesh (generic weapon type) and do parallel DPS to the eSOS (best specific named weapon in the game).

Kensai aint going anywhere soon. The fact that other long neglected classes are becomming more effective has nothing to do with it, and is actually a plus.

With Haste boost, Khopesh TWF is very viable for Barbarians and can slightly outdps single target dps of a ESoS user if they wield 2d8 Khopesh, obviously if you have esos there is still no reason to go TWF on the barb as with the cleaves, Fury and Dreadnought abilities still favor THF by a lot but atleast TWF Barbs can catch up with THF Barbs and can outdps Helf TWF Kensais by a bit.

Problem is all the best abilities of a fighter can be twisted, sure LD gets +crit but it stacks with everything, LD Haste and Damage do not at all so Barbs and Rangers will out dps fighters by quite a bit with haste boost. The devs said they will be adding new Tactical Feats for fighters, hopefully they can close the gap in dps compared to barbs and Rangers with Damage and Haste boost, otherwise making LD add some stackable Haste and Damage boost per Kensai level would help it even it out(15% at kensai 3).

[sirgog]

Kensais will get a huge survivability boost too, given that their AC and other defenses will actually matter.

[oweieie]

Kensais will get a huge survivability boost too, given that their AC and other defenses will actually matter.

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can believe this. Are they going to make the already easy game so easy you don't even need to bring heal pots? It's not like the lack of AC is too hard right now. If they're going to be taking less damage than now then in a couple updates monster damage will be boosted across the board to not make everything a joke. This AC change is not fixing anything, it's not changing anything.

[Zerkul]

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone can believe this. Are they going to make the already easy game so easy you don't even need to bring heal pots? It's not like the lack of AC is too hard right now. If they're going to be taking less damage than now then in a couple updates monster damage will be boosted across the board to not make everything a joke. This AC change is not fixing anything, it's not changing anything.

For sure Kensai will gain survivability, but the more survivability you want to achieve the less DPS you'll do. Equipment slots are limited and that means you need to make choices. For pure Kensai DPS the survivability boost will be limited to the Physical resistance of the heavy armor and mayb the dodge mobility dodge bonuses you get to gain whirlwind attack... that's all. But you'll loose hitpoints from live so everything balances off to the current state more or less. So little gain unless you want to invest heavy in AC and gimp your DPS.

[gphysalis]

For pure Kensai DPS the survivability boost will be limited to the Physical resistance of the heavy armor and mayb the dodge mobility dodge bonuses you get to gain whirlwind attack...

Sorry to disappoint you further, but heavy armor caps your dodge bonus.

[Zerkul]

Trying to figure out what to TR my Zavarthak (Kensai 20) in and so far choices are:

1. Barbarian TWF 18/2 Khopesh Human (Dreadnought, with some ad hoc twists);
2. Barbarian THF 20 Human (Dreadnought, with some ad hoc twists);
3. DoS Paladin TWF 20 Human (Dreadnought, with some ad hoc twists) ...

What concern me is that a DoS properly specced is dangerously close in DPS (at least from what i've calculated so far) to Kensai and Barbarians. Talking of course of single mob DPS.

So probably like my sage-Sarnind said, since epic elite mobs will have 10.000 HPs is and all DPS classes gonna have "closer" ranges of DPS, will be better to stick to a kind of DPS that has or some extra survivability or some stunning abilties.

@Leloric: I did some calcs for some Kensai's Build (THF with all cleaves/whirlwind and TWF Kensai) they are very close in terms of DPS to barbarians so you were correct. Too bad that's very difficult to put stun into the feats with all the new stuff you need to take. About Rangers, Paladins ... i tested a particular DoS build and it's very close in DPS to Kensai and Barbarians ... without going too much in depth the balance between these 3 is something like DoS<Kensai<Barbarian which is nice if it wasn't that DoS does almost the same Kensai DPS with the right twists.

@Sirgrog: Well i think that the Hp loss will be balanced from the new physical resistance and dodge sources, somehow: haven't explored the math though.

@Everyone: DOOOOM! One thing for sure, all build gonna make some adjustments to achieve top-notch dps.

[Cetus]

Trying to figure out what to TR my Zavarthak (Kensai 20) in and so far choices are:

1. Barbarian TWF 18/2 Khopesh Human (Dreadnought, with some ad hoc twists);
2. Barbarian THF 20 Human (Dreadnought, with some ad hoc twists);
3. DoS Paladin TWF 20 Human (Dreadnought, with some ad hoc twists) ...

What concern me is that a DoS properly specced is dangerously close in DPS (at least from what i've calculated so far) to Kensai and Barbarians. Talking of course of single mob DPS.

So probably like my sage-Sarnind said, since epic elite mobs will have 10.000 HPs is and all DPS classes gonna have "closer" ranges of DPS, will be better to stick to a kind of DPS that has or some extra survivability or some stunning abilties.

@Leloric: I did some calcs for some Kensai's Build (THF with all cleaves/whirlwind and TWF Kensai) they are very close in terms of DPS to barbarians so you were correct. Too bad that's very difficult to put stun into the feats with all the new stuff you need to take. About Rangers, Paladins ... i tested a particular DoS build and it's very close in DPS to Kensai and Barbarians ... without going too much in depth the balance between these 3 is something like DoS<Kensai<Barbarian which is nice if it wasn't that DoS does almost the same Kensai DPS with the right twists.

@Sirgrog: Well i think that the Hp loss will be balanced from the new physical resistance and dodge sources, somehow: haven't explored the math though.

@Everyone: DOOOOM! One thing for sure, all build gonna make some adjustments to achieve top-notch dps.

I'd suggest keeping him Kensei, as a non-completionist you have just enough feats on a half elf type.

11 fighter feats: 3 weapon foci, 2 weapon specs, PA, IC:slashing, Stunning Blow, Improved Sunder, Cleave, Great cleave

7 reagular feats: combat expertise, dodge, mobility, spring attack, whirlwind, toughness (barb past life), and you can either take improved trip for more tactics or pally past life for extra dps clickies.

Epic feats: Epic toughness, overwhelming crit

This is for a THF, TWF gets a bit complex now.

If you have the completionist feat, you start ramming your head against the wall =D

[Zerkul]

If you have the completionist feat, you start ramming your head against the wall =D

Sadly that's true . Anyway i'll do the jump of faith and try Paladin.