Arcane Archers, 10k stars Vs. Pure Vs. 12fighter/6ranger/2monk

[karl_k0ch]

Again, that's a long time to wait on getting into AA. If you don't mind paying a different sort of character until you hit 20, then that's attractive...

Active Past Lives are ML 3, not ML 20.

[Thrudh]

Active Past Lives are ML 3, not ML 20.

But the Epic Destiny that gives you SP so you can use your AA abilities doesn't work until you are 20+

[LeLoric]

But the Epic Destiny that gives you SP so you can use your AA abilities doesn't work until you are 20+

Sp items give you spell points no matter which class with the expansion. You can make a 300 sp shroud item and be set from level 11 on. Before then theres popx's or crafted magi stuff.

[sephiroth1084]

Active Past Lives are ML 3, not ML 20.

Sp items give you spell points no matter which class with the expansion. You can make a 300 sp shroud item and be set from level 11 on. Before then theres popx's or crafted magi stuff.

So, we could grab the sorc PL and equip an SP item and both qualify for, and use, Arcane Archer throughout heroic levels without otherwise picking up blue bar class levels?

[LeLoric]

So, we could grab the sorc PL and equip an SP item and both qualify for, and use, Arcane Archer throughout heroic levels without otherwise picking up blue bar class levels?

Yes.

[sephiroth1084]

Yes.

That opens up some possibilities...

Curious as to what combination ends up making for the strongest overall archer then. I imagine 6 monk for 10K Stars beats most other options, but if the base damage is high enough, or crits are big enough...

[Glenalth]

The Sorc past life gives you SP too, so you can get right into it.

[LeLoric]

That opens up some possibilities...

Curious as to what combination ends up making for the strongest overall archer then. I imagine 6 monk for 10K Stars beats most other options, but if the base damage is high enough, or crits are big enough...

I actually was considering a 20 monk w/ shiradi. With the monk capstone and serenity twisted in you would never have to melee as the passive ki gen would keep your ki up enough to fuel the 10k's. Very possibly the first 100% bow use viable dps build.

[sephiroth1084]

I actually was considering a 20 monk w/ shiradi. With the monk capstone and serenity twisted in you would never have to melee as the passive ki gen would keep your ki up enough to fuel the 10k's. Very possibly the first 100% bow use viable dps build.

Yeah, that's one of the notions I was entertaining as well. Was thinking that I could manage that even without the capstone, swapping to Water and sneaking periodically on a 12 monk/ build, but the capstone really pumps that up. With the twist and cap, you're at 30 Ki/min, can turn on Water 3 for 40/min, and sneak for 50/min if you like (between fights, during buffing, while someone is doing traps, etc...). That should be enough to keep up 10K Stars and for the occasional Abundant Step or Shadow Fade.

You're still rather tight on feats, though...10 feats and you want to fit in Dodge, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, IPS, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Zen Archery, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Bow Strength, Arcane Prodigy, Toughness (can skip this as a start).

[LeLoric]

Yeah, that's one of the notions I was entertaining as well. Was thinking that I could manage that even without the capstone, swapping to Water and sneaking periodically on a 12 monk/ build, but the capstone really pumps that up. With the twist and cap, you're at 30 Ki/min, can turn on Water 3 for 40/min, and sneak for 50/min if you like (between fights, during buffing, while someone is doing traps, etc...). That should be enough to keep up 10K Stars and for the occasional Abundant Step or Shadow Fade.

You're still rather tight on feats, though...10 feats and you want to fit in Dodge, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, IPS, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Zen Archery, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Bow Strength, Arcane Prodigy, Toughness (can skip this as a start).

Yep feats suck here. Got combat archery as a choice too for your epics (although qualifying for this is a pain.)

Could look at a 2 ftr split i guess and not have the capstone although I like this a lot cause it not only gives the passive regen but a healthy concentration boost for keeping higher amounts of ki and the +2 wis.

Or even a 1 ftr/1 druid split, i know this negates the whole no spellcaster thing but it gives access to rams might (shiradi gives +1 casrer level) and lesser vigor (this works great with monk healing amp)

Maybe something like the following.

18 monk/1 ftr/1 druid

36 point build
16 str 4 other level ups here
16 dex +3 tome +2 level ups (21)
14 con
16 wis

Grandmaster earth and water stances (water is better when under 10k stars than earth for dps)

Feats:

1 point blank shot
3 Arcane prodigy
6 rapid shot
9 bow str
12 many shot
15 ic ranged
18 precise shot
21 imp precise shot
24 combat archery

ftr 1 wf ranged

monk 1 dodge
monk 2 zen archery
monk 6 toughness (have to take this due to no other monk feats right?)

I'd love having two combat archery and I guess that would be the benefit of the two ftr build instead.

[ShadowFlash]

I'd love having two combat archery ...

Is that possible?

ShadowFlash

[sephiroth1084]

Yep feats suck here. Got combat archery as a choice too for your epics (although qualifying for this is a pain.)

Could look at a 2 ftr split i guess and not have the capstone although I like this a lot cause it not only gives the passive regen but a healthy concentration boost for keeping higher amounts of ki and the +2 wis.

Or even a 1 ftr/1 druid split, i know this negates the whole no spellcaster thing but it gives access to rams might (shiradi gives +1 casrer level) and lesser vigor (this works great with monk healing amp)

Maybe something like the following.

18 monk/1 ftr/1 druid

I feel like, if you're going to lose the monk capstone, you may as well go back down to 12 monk, since the difference between 12 and 18 is pretty minimal for a build like this, whereas getting in some extra feats and abilities seems much more useful.

36 point build
16 str 4 other level ups here
16 dex +3 tome +2 level ups (21)
14 con
16 wis

Why Str? Is this going to be at 95% chance to-hit? I think not, even with Wis bumps, and that's probably more important than the extra 3-5 damage per shot from the high starting Str and level-ups there.

Grandmaster earth and water stances (water is better when under 10k stars than earth for dps)

You need a +4 Con tome to get Grandmaster of Earth from a starting 14.

Feats:

1 point blank shot
3 Arcane prodigy
6 rapid shot
9 bow str
12 many shot
15 ic ranged
18 precise shot
21 imp precise shot
24 combat archery

ftr 1 wf ranged

monk 1 dodge
monk 2 zen archery
monk 6 toughness (have to take this due to no other monk feats right?)

You're right about Toughness. Hmm...And the order is kind of lackluster, with Manyshot and IPS pushed pretty far back in the build.

[LeLoric]

I feel like, if you're going to lose the monk capstone, you may as well go back down to 12 monk, since the difference between 12 and 18 is pretty minimal for a build like this, whereas getting in some extra feats and abilities seems much more useful.
Why Str? Is this going to be at 95% chance to-hit? I think not, even with Wis bumps, and that's probably more important than the extra 3-5 damage per shot from the high starting Str and level-ups there.
You need a +4 Con tome to get Grandmaster of Earth from a starting 14.
You're right about Toughness. Hmm...And the order is kind of lackluster, with Manyshot and IPS pushed pretty far back in the build.

The extra ki for more monk levels and tier 4 stances may be enough of a reason to go 18 monk if you are trying to do a full always on monk build. Future proofs for ninja III also *shrug*

Thing is you've almost taken every possible feat you can to up ranged dps. Could drop to more fighter levels but in reality what are you gonna get out of them? melee capability, but then there's better hybrid builds anyways and would not use shiradi. Weapon spec out of ftr levels is alright for more dmg I guess but fighter doesn't get you a whole lot more.

Having a good starting ki is pretty important if you want to always stay ranged.

As for str no it's not a 95% to hit build but the two wisdom brackets you would get aren't enough of a to hit bonus to really change things under the new system although I'd probably go wis after rethinking just for more 10k stars arrows.

You are right about tier 4 mountain stance but in hindsight you probably don't want tier 4 due to threat gen and will end up in water more anyways for ki gen, to hit, and 10k bonus arrows.

Yeah the feats suck during levelling this would be one of those really suck to level builds that doesn't really shine til much later or level it as something different and then lesser.

As for a hybrid melee type build I honestly would consider something along the lines of 13 rog/6 ranger/1 ftr shadowdancer. This opens up both improved sneak attack feats for 6d6 extra dmg, you generally want to be in sneak attack range anyways for point blank bonus.

When meleeing you are a 21d6 sneak dmg rog with the ability to pull up for a big manyshot when off timer.

[sephiroth1084]

The extra ki for more monk levels and tier 4 stances may be enough of a reason to go 18 monk if you are trying to do a full always on monk build. Future proofs for ninja III also *shrug*

The extra base/max Ki you mean? Yeah, that's attractive. tier 4 stances aren't much of an improvement over tier 3s, though. For Earth it's mostly downside for an archer with the increased threat gen, since the +1 to crits comes in at tier 3. Water can bump you up a Wis bracket, but there are plenty of ways to juggle that odd Wis score...maybe drop a point and free up some AP, and the extra 1% dodge isn't a really big deal.

Thing is you've almost taken every possible feat you can to up ranged dps. Could drop to more fighter levels but in reality what are you gonna get out of them? melee capability, but then there's better hybrid builds anyways and would not use shiradi. Weapon spec out of ftr levels is alright for more dmg I guess but fighter doesn't get you a whole lot more.

You can gain more to-hit and damage with fighter levels or barbarian levels, or work the switch-hitting back in via ranger or fighter, or pick up rogue for some sneak attack, skills, and Uncanny Dodge. You could pick up a Defender I for more Str, Con, HP, saves and AC. Not sure how many of these are really worthwhile, but 13-18 monk isn't too impressive when you aren't using handwraps or special attacks.

Having a good starting ki is pretty important if you want to always stay ranged.

True.

As for str no it's not a 95% to hit build but the two wisdom brackets you would get aren't enough of a to hit bonus to really change things under the new system although I'd probably go wis after rethinking just for more 10k stars arrows.

Well, the extra Wis could be meaningful vs. one enemy or another with the way the new to-hit system works (still don't like it), and, as you noted, there is the increased damage during 10K Stars from extra Wis brackets, both of which are doing more for you than Str is. Plus, if you lower Str a little (start at 14 or 12) you can put more points into Dex in order to hit Combat Archery, or Wis for more of the aforementioned benefits.

You are right about tier 4 mountain stance but in hindsight you probably don't want tier 4 due to threat gen and will end up in water more anyways for ki gen, to hit, and 10k bonus arrows.

What ends up being better overall, +1 to crit multiplier on a 17-20/x3 weapon, or the small chance of an extra arrow? I'm curious about this, since many of the other threads I've read concerning Zen Archers seem to promote a primarily Earth-stanced build.

As an aside, I still think Earth's +1 multiplier should get moved to Fire--sure, the Earth finisher and Fists of Iron are themed the same way, but Fire feels like it should be doing more DPS than the defensive stance.

Yeah the feats suck during levelling this would be one of those really suck to level builds that doesn't really shine til much later or level it as something different and then lesser.

What about...
1. Point Blank Shot
1. (Monk) Zen Archery
2. (Monk) Toughness
3. Rapid Shot
6. Precise Shot
6. (Monk) Dodge
9. Manyshot
12. Improved Critical
15. Weapon Focus
18. Improved Precise Shot or Arcane Prodigy depending on whether you value IPS or Slaying Arrows more highly (could also move IPS down to level 15)

That means delaying either AA or IPS until level 21, and then Combat Archery to 24. Not terrible, but not great, either.

As for a hybrid melee type build I honestly would consider something along the lines of 13 rog/6 ranger/1 ftr shadowdancer. This opens up both improved sneak attack feats for 6d6 extra dmg, you generally want to be in sneak attack range anyways for point blank bonus.

When meleeing you are a 21d6 sneak dmg rog with the ability to pull up for a big manyshot when off timer.

You'd want a lot of threat reduction on that!

[sephiroth1084]

Ugh! I left out Bow Strength!

[LeLoric]

Ugh! I left out Bow Strength!

Yep feats suck on ranged builds.

Hopefully the enhancement revamp that we may never see will reduce a lot of the silly requirements like they said it would.

[sephiroth1084]

Yep feats suck on ranged builds.

Hopefully the enhancement revamp that we may never see will reduce a lot of the silly requirements like they said it would.

What is it going to cut out, though? Mental Toughness for AA? Everything else is tied up in feat prerequisites, unless you mean Dodge for Ninja Spy, but then we're left in the same place we were if we wanted to dump Toughness--without another monk feat to go in that slot.

I'm hoping Deepwood Sniper ends up being competitive with 10K Stars, as I think I'd prefer that to AA (or that with a minor in AA).

Did the enhancement pass get pushed back again from the possible November date? I know it got pushed out of August. Really unhappy about that. The guys pulling the strings over there are getting a lot of negative marks in my book...the expansion should have been given more time to gestate, for the devs to work on it, polishing and such, for us to test, and for the devs to have time to incorporate the enhancement revamp as well.

And yeah, archery is a real strain on feats, which is part of the reason I'm always posting requests to the devs to make archery stronger--if the style takes up 10-12 feats, the least it could do is actually be worth using 100% of the time.

[LeLoric]

What is it going to cut out, though? Mental Toughness for AA? Everything else is tied up in feat prerequisites, unless you mean Dodge for Ninja Spy, but then we're left in the same place we were if we wanted to dump Toughness--without another monk feat to go in that slot.

I'm hoping Deepwood Sniper ends up being competitive with 10K Stars, as I think I'd prefer that to AA (or that with a minor in AA).

Did the enhancement pass get pushed back again from the possible November date? I know it got pushed out of August. Really unhappy about that. The guys pulling the strings over there are getting a lot of negative marks in my book...the expansion should have been given more time to gestate, for the devs to work on it, polishing and such, for us to test, and for the devs to have time to incorporate the enhancement revamp as well.

And yeah, archery is a real strain on feats, which is part of the reason I'm always posting requests to the devs to make archery stronger--if the style takes up 10-12 feats, the least it could do is actually be worth using 100% of the time.

I was mainly thinking wf ranged but yeah that's needed for manyshot perhaps remove that from manyshot prereq too it's not like it doesn't have enough other prereqs.

[maddmatt70]

I would say either 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk or 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 barbarian are the best builds. The playstyle is range on manyshot and melee when manyshot is on timer with the 12 fighter being specced to whatever is the melee weapons whether it is handwraps or khopeshes or even rapiers. This is the highest dps build that ranges at least some of the time in game. Just being honest here after playing 20 ranger, 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue, 11 ranger 9 monk, 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter, and 12 fighter 7 monk 1 artificer. 10k stars and manyshot and melee is not as good as manyshot and melee. This is very sad but it is true. The destinies do not change that one iota and in fact make it even more true..

[LeLoric]

I would say either 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 monk or 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 barbarian are the best builds. The playstyle is range on manyshot and melee when manyshot is on timer with the 12 fighter being specced to whatever is the melee weapons whether it is handwraps or khopeshes or even rapiers. This is the highest dps build that ranges at least some of the time in game. Just being honest here after playing 20 ranger, 12 fighter 6 ranger 2 rogue, 11 ranger 9 monk, 12 monk 6 ranger 2 fighter, and 12 fighter 7 monk 1 artificer. 10k stars and manyshot and melee is not as good as manyshot and melee. This is very sad but it is true. The destinies do not change that one iota and in fact make it even more true..

The 13 rog/6 ranger/1ftr shadowdancer build I threw up earlier will out dps any of your above combos in both melee and ranged (as long as you are close enough but your builds want to be close enough also for point blank shot bonus)

7d6 sneak from rog, 6d6 from shadow dancer, 6d6 from improved sneak attack x2, 2d6 from assassin 2

21d6 + 25 sneak attack dmg is ridiculously good, couple that with full tiered haste boost, rams might, some favored enemy dmg etc. Add in some instakills via shadow dancer. This is the new top burst dps hybrid ranged/melee build.



Shiradi does change your situation quite a bit also as it offers nothing for melee and some pretty good ranged buffs enough to make a full time ranged bow build viable dps if it can keep its ki up which is the situation we were discussing.