For those w/ AA 10k Stars toons, a few questions

[sephiroth1084]

UPDATE
So I've done the TR, and used the Stone of XP to jump up to level 16. Going with the (ultimately) 12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer version for solid UMD and trap skills.

I will say that the toon felt exceptionally gimp until I XP stoned. I took Manyshot at level 9 so that when I get to level 16 I'll have both Manyshot and 10K Stars to play with, and will need to feat-swap before taking ranger 6 at level 19.

Wondering what gear everyone is looking at for levels 20-25.
Also, wondering what Destiny you're going with, and what twists you have planned. Care to share?

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Thinking about TRing my archer into a 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter and have a few questions.

1. How far does your Ki go without meleeing? I know that the standard practice is to melee in between Stars and Manyshots, but if you were to shoot instead, how far does your Ki last you from stepping into the quest?
2. Do you hang out in Water III stance for the +1 passive Ki regeneration? Or are you in Earth most of the time for +1 to your crit multipliers?
3. Do you think +2 passive ki gen from an epic twist of Grandmaster of Flowers would be enough to skip having to melee between Stars and MS (that's 20 Ki/min in Earth stance, or 30/min in Water III)?

[Failedlegend]

Answer to #1 & 2 is I actually rarely melee on my Monkchersai I stick to Earth Stance and just let the mobs wail on me as...for the first few levels its rough but thats true for most builds beyond that you've got more than enough Ki as a starting buffer and the incoming hits do alot to keep you above the mark.

My Character is Str/Wis focused with minimal Dex (enough to get feats) and my focus is to reduce damage instead of avoid it as I rely on being hit to survive.

I also took light monk and stunning fist so I could use the heal punch if required and I always have a pair of stunning handwraps hotkeyed so i can through out a stunning first before many shotting.

I'm not sure how well this will function with the new PRR system though

[wax_on_wax_off]

Thinking about TRing my archer into a 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter and have a few questions.

1. How far does your Ki go without meleeing? I know that the standard practice is to melee in between Stars and Manyshots, but if you were to shoot instead, how far does your Ki last you from stepping into the quest?
2. Do you hang out in Water III stance for the +1 passive Ki regeneration? Or are you in Earth most of the time for +1 to your crit multipliers?
3. Do you think +2 passive ki gen from an epic twist of Grandmaster of Flowers would be enough to skip having to melee between Stars and MS (that's 20 Ki/min in Earth stance, or 30/min in Water III)?

If you walk into a quest in water stance and sit in the back and pew pew you'll be able to go 5 minutes or so without having Ki issues assuming a good concentration score through gear etc and you aren't using Ki on other things.

Do the maths on it, not too difficult. Straight up if you have 30 Ki regen/minute from the epic twist then it sounds like you can go indefinitely.

[sephiroth1084]

I had been thinking about going with something like:
Half-elf
Str 13
Dex 16
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 17
Cha 8

Still trying to figure out the best stat-allocation. I want to max Wis for to-hit and 10K Stars attack rate, but need a 19 Dex in the heroic levels for Improved Precise Shot and then a 21 for Combat Archery (epic feat), which means that with a 16 I need a +2 tome and a level up, or a +3 tome (don't have) for IPS, then a +2 tome and three level ups for CA, or a +3 tome and two level ups. Not very happy with that, but it seems more efficient to end Dex at a 16 and spend a level bump or two than to spend 3-6 build points to get it higher.

1. Ranger - Point Blank Shot
2. Ranger
3. Ranger - Precise Shot
4. Ranger
5. Monk - Zen Archery
6. Monk - Toughness, Weapon Focus
7. Monk
8. Monk
---Stone of Shared Experience---
9-16. Monk x8, Mental Toughness, Dodge, Improved Critical, Improved Precise Shot
17. Ranger
18. Ranger - Greater TWF (if I end up not needing to melee, swap this for ???)
19. Fighter - Mobility
20. Fighter - Shot on the Run

That gets me to level 8 rather painlessly, then when I resume play at 16, I have 10K Stars, Improved Precise Shot, and am a few ranks into AA. Two levels to wait on Manyshot seems acceptable at that point, especially with all the XP available in the untouched level 12+ quests.

For enhancements, I'm looking at:
Fighter Haste Boost I
Ranger Sprint Boost I
AA V
AA: Acid
AA: Explosive
AA: Force (not Burst, as I don't expect to be using anything bu Slaying Arrows usually)
AA: Slaying
AA: Terror
Cleric Dilly III (can swap to rogue if I find I don't need to heal myself via scrolls too often, or just want the DPS instead)
Human Adapt: Wis
Human Greater Adapt: Str
Human Improved Recovery II
Static Charge
Ten Thousand Stars
Way of Tortoise II
Monk Improved Recovery II
Improved Jump II
Improved Tumble II
Ninja Spy II
Adept of Wind
Master of Stone
Master of the Sea (if I find that I don't need to bother with +1 passive Ki gen, can drop)
Racial Toughness II
Favored Damage I (figure Evil Outsiders and one of Undead, Constructs, or Elementals?)
Fighter Str I
Monk Wis II
Fighter Toughness II

Open to suggestions on any changes that should be made.

[sephiroth1084]

If you walk into a quest in water stance and sit in the back and pew pew you'll be able to go 5 minutes or so without having Ki issues assuming a good concentration score through gear etc and you aren't using Ki on other things.

Do the maths on it, not too difficult. Straight up if you have 30 Ki regen/minute from the epic twist then it sounds like you can go indefinitely.

I did the math...and then forgot I had done it.

The issue then is whether it becomes worth keeping up Shadow Fade at all as that makes things difficult. Being able to swap to Water and sneak for another +2 ki gen/6 seconds in between fights probably smooths that out.

What should I grab in place of GTWF if this works out? Quick Draw? Another Toughness? Combat Expertise? ...???

[wax_on_wax_off]

Ranger gets Precise Shot for free at level 4 in U14 so make sure you don't have that feat when the update goes live

Take that free feat and dump the fighter levels and replace with artificer. You lose 2 fighter feats but can skip mental toughness so with free PS you're back at square 1 with full UMD, +2 UMD/+1 CL with scrolls and W&SMI (+30%).

For stats I'd go 14/16/14/10/16/8. The new stat allocations are an absolute pain and it's hard to know what is the right thing to do but for now I'd suggest to skip Combat Archery. +2 dodge is nice but +1 weapon damage is going to be ... +4.5 damage/shot average before misses/criticals are factored in?

I'll plan on combat archery when I have a +4 dex tome and on a 36 point life, not before. Unless I'm not understanding the +[base damage] mechanic right?

[sephiroth1084]

Ranger gets Precise Shot for free at level 4 in U14 so make sure you don't have that feat when the update goes live

Is this WAI? I'm all for rangers getting a little love, but those first 6 levels are looking kind of ridiculous with the bonus feats...Bow Strength (stupid that this is a feat, and that it has such hefty prerequisites to boot!), Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Manyshot, TWF, ITWF, Die Hard...That's 6.5 (Die Hard sucks right now, but apparently is slated for improvement by the devs) feats in 6 levels vs. a fighter's 4 in 6, albeit 2 of those are off-theme if you're an archer.

If this stays in, that will be good to know.

Take that free feat and dump the fighter levels and replace with artificer. You lose 2 fighter feats but can skip mental toughness so with free PS you're back at square 1 with full UMD, +2 UMD/+1 CL with scrolls and W&SMI (+30%).

Hmm...that's compelling. It would mean that I could get good self-healing on either a regular elf (move points into bow attack/damage), or pick up the rogue dilly instead of the cleric for +3d6 SA damage. Haste Boost I is hard to give up, though...Twisting from Legendary Dreadnought?

Guessing rune arms don't work with bows (not to mention the pitiful DCs and low CL).
That opens up the option of swapping to a repeater in between 10K and MS, though I don't know if I could be bothered to do that.

For stats I'd go 14/16/14/10/16/8. The new stat allocations are an absolute pain and it's hard to know what is the right thing to do but for now I'd suggest to skip Combat Archery. +2 dodge is nice but +1 weapon damage is going to be ... +4.5 damage/shot average before misses/criticals are factored in?

+1[W] damage/shot is worth more than the extra starting Strength from going to 14. If you want to compare damage just after level 20, it would probably be more worthwhile to go something like:
Str 10
Dex 18 (+2 tome and level up, or +3 tome to hit Combat Archery)
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 8

You lose 2 damage per shot to gain 4.5 average/8 max per shot and a little extra. That's a good trade. The fact that there aren't really any compelling feats to be taking on this sort of character in the epic levels further adds to pushing for CA.

. Unless I'm not understanding the +[base damage] mechanic right?

Not sure what you mean here. Does the +[W] mechanic get factored into crits? If not then the choice becomes a little more difficult, but I still think it's heavily in favor of picking up CA.

[sephiroth1084]

Oh, and since the conversation turned to epics anyway...
Figuring on Shiradi Champion with twists from Grandmaster of Flowers as a present goal. I'm thinking
Enlightenment III (+2 passive Ki and other stuff) PRIORITY
Piercing Clarity II (maybe; 10% Fort bypass, innate True Seeing...bleh)
Orchid Blossom (if this can be used while holding a bow, gives a decent AoE option)

Another possibility would be using GMoF as the base with twists from Shiradi.
And still another would be using Shadowdancer with GMoF and Shiradi twists. This seems like it's situationally the strongest (when you can get sneak attack damage reliably) and weakest (when you can't), but it's also the most work.

Maybe twist in Haste Boost from Dreadnought, but that's a LOT more work.
Hmm...does Adrenaline work on ranged attacks?

[Brennie]

Thinking about TRing my archer into a 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter and have a few questions.

1. How far does your Ki go without meleeing? I know that the standard practice is to melee in between Stars and Manyshots, but if you were to shoot instead, how far does your Ki last you from stepping into the quest?
2. Do you hang out in Water III stance for the +1 passive Ki regeneration? Or are you in Earth most of the time for +1 to your crit multipliers?
3. Do you think +2 passive ki gen from an epic twist of Grandmaster of Flowers would be enough to skip having to melee between Stars and MS (that's 20 Ki/min in Earth stance, or 30/min in Water III)?

I'm nowhere near as experienced as Wax on this issue, but I did use his guide as a baseline for my own Monkcher life. Please note that most of my answers are oriented toward lategame but *not* capped, since i spend all of 3-4 days capped on this guy :P

1) With decent concentration, you can get 2-3 rounds of 10k stars off before you want to mix it up melee style. With nothing more than a Frozen Tunic, I had enough ki for another 10k stars after only a few seconds of meleeing. If i rode out the whole 30 second cooldown, i could usually toss a stunning fist in, use shadow fade, and end up above my stable ki level. I know meleeing on an archer sounds annoying, but its actually a great way to break up your pace (plus its fun to stunning fist stuff!). 30 ki per minute via twists would definitely keep your 10k stars supplied, as long as you never wanted to touch shadowfade.

2) While leveling, i hung out in water stance just to get more to-hit and bonuses on 10k stars. I took my 12th monk level at 20, and at that point i respecced out of water stance and into earth III. I didn't notice a very good ki gain while in archer mode at that point, due mostly to the fact enemies seem to hit less frequently, but much, much harder, so earth stance was pretty minimal gains. But the damage mitigation and critical multiplier were still fun (For the whole 4 days i got to use it, heh)

3) 20 ki a minute is exactly how much you'd need to have 10k stars ready at every cooldown (Which is coincidentally 1 minute after activation, for a cost of 20 ki). As long as you don't ever intend to use Shadow Fade or light monk ki buffs (Since dark monk strikes require you to melee anyway), that *should* be all you need. You can always Meditate to pre-prep, or jump into sneak mode if you're a ninja spy during "Downtime" to rev up a little ki as well.

As to your build - Mobility and shot on teh run may be better post-expansion, but right now they don't seem like a good use of feats. I believe I took Stunning fist and Quickdraw in their place on my monkcher (I paid very close attention, and didn't notice much/any difference from quickdraw on either weapon swaps or boost activations so... your mileage may vary. If i run this again I'll probably take IC:Bludgeon or something). Stunning fist was a great tool and fun utility though (After i got level 16 frozen tunic, and had enough ki to actually use it, that is)!

Personally, i woudl run all 6 ranger levels in a row, from the beginning. Waiting til 18 to get manyshot just feels way too harsh. And in the pre 11-12ish levels (no IPS, no 10k stars, no greensteel...), I found myself wrap-meleeing 99% of the time just to have an even half-decent clearing speed, so having ITWF was critical.

The 21 base dex archery feat changes start stat lineups a bit. However, 10 starting strength just seem sacrilegious (not to mention it will make you practically unable to melee, even if you want to). I really wish archery feats had a little more wiggle room on the Dex department so that the Int based artis and wis based monchers could get in on that action (Or strength based Brutal Throwers... cause they exist...)

As for arti splash - it does have its benefits, but to me the real reason for 2 fighter levels is str +1 and haste boost. Sure, archers only get a 7.5% bonus out of tier 1, but you can run it together with Human Versitility strength boost and manyshot for absolute wonderful carnage (Plus short term item buffs like titans grip and madstone)

[Jaid314]

for the arti splash: you'd lose haste boost, but gain damage boost. also, i seem to recall artificers getting rapid reload at level 2 (small DPS increase if i'm right), and of course there's always trap skills and UMD to consider.

on a side note, switching to repeater/runearm while 10k stars is on cooldown sounds... "non-optimal". neither rune arms nor repeating crossbows are ki weapons. nor will either of them use your ideal stats (strength and wisdom, for a zen archer build).

feels like a pretty good deal to me, if you're going 12/6/2 monk/ranger/X.

of course, then again, i'm crazy, and feel quite tempted by 11/9 ranger/monk

[sephiroth1084]

Oh yeah. Forgot about to-hit and centering with crossbows. Nevermind on that point.

Does Rapid Reload affect archery? I thought it was only for crossbows.

[Jaid314]

Oh yeah. Forgot about to-hit and centering with crossbows. Nevermind on that point.

Does Rapid Reload affect archery? I thought it was only for crossbows.

yes. not as much as rapid shot. iirc, rapid reload and rapid shot are basically mirrors to each other; rapid shot adds 10% to bows and 5% to repeaters (give or take) while rapid reload adds 10% to repeaters and 5% to bows (give or take).

[Thrudh]

Thinking about TRing my archer into a 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter and have a few questions.

1. How far does your Ki go without meleeing? I know that the standard practice is to melee in between Stars and Manyshots, but if you were to shoot instead, how far does your Ki last you from stepping into the quest?
2. Do you hang out in Water III stance for the +1 passive Ki regeneration? Or are you in Earth most of the time for +1 to your crit multipliers?
3. Do you think +2 passive ki gen from an epic twist of Grandmaster of Flowers would be enough to skip having to melee between Stars and MS (that's 20 Ki/min in Earth stance, or 30/min in Water III)?

I have that exact same build....

(1) I can usually manage 3-4 10k stars before I need to melee to rebuild Ki (I like to use Abundant step too though). I usually do 20 seconds of manyshot, 10 seconds of single shot, 30 seconds of 10k stars, then 30 seconds of melee (unless I use IPS easily to hit multiple targets). Ki rebuilds very fast when meleeing. Like just a few seconds of meleeing (I also wear a Frozen Tunic - that freezing effect works with your ranged weapons)

(2) I use earth stance mostly... Definitely for manyshot and melee... Often I use water stance for manyshot to get my Wisdom above 40.

(3) Yes, 20 ki/min would be very close to letting you skip melee... Again though, if you don't have IPS going, that single-shot DPS for 30 seconds is REALLY weak... Not a bad idea to run up to the fighter and sneak attack the bad guy he is hitting to build up some Ki.

[Thrudh]

Ranger gets Precise Shot for free at level 4 in U14 so make sure you don't have that feat when the update goes live

What? Since when? I can get Extend now!

Take that free feat and dump the fighter levels and replace with artificer. You lose 2 fighter feats but can skip mental toughness so with free PS you're back at square 1 with full UMD, +2 UMD/+1 CL with scrolls and W&SMI (+30%).

This actually a very good idea now since we can twist the Haste Boost (a better one) than the one we get from the Fighter levels.

One thing I'd say to the OP... If you're going Wisdom-based, it's hard to pass up Stunning Fist... It works very well on a wis-based monk. I know you don't want to melee much, but having Stunning Fist makes the occasional meleeing of trash MUCH easier.

I'll plan on combat archery when I have a +4 dex tome and on a 36 point life, not before. Unless I'm not understanding the +[base damage] mechanic right?

Yeah, I'm not sure if I can fit it in on my archer monk either yet...

[Thrudh]

of course, then again, i'm crazy, and feel quite tempted by 11/9 ranger/monk

I've been thinking about that too... but Earth Stance III is very very good, and from a flavor standpoint, I don't think I can give up my abundant step!

(Monk speed, with ranger sprint boost, AND abundant step means nothing is going to catch me if I run away, er <cough> strategically retreat)..

[slimkj]

Thinking about TRing my archer into a 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter and have a few questions.

1. How far does your Ki go without meleeing? I know that the standard practice is to melee in between Stars and Manyshots, but if you were to shoot instead, how far does your Ki last you from stepping into the quest?
2. Do you hang out in Water III stance for the +1 passive Ki regeneration? Or are you in Earth most of the time for +1 to your crit multipliers?
3. Do you think +2 passive ki gen from an epic twist of Grandmaster of Flowers would be enough to skip having to melee between Stars and MS (that's 20 Ki/min in Earth stance, or 30/min in Water III)?

1) I find I have to melee to keep it up enough to do all I want to. That's ok for me though, I like the mix and would probably do it whether I needed to or not.
2) No, Earth usually or another if don't want the speed hit.
3) That would probably help yes, but without testing I wouldn't want to say. Guess it depends how busy you are with your Ki. I tend to be less than efficient with Shadow Fade, for example, hitting it more often than I may need to, to make sure it's always up.

[slimkj]

(I also wear a Frozen Tunic - that freezing effect works with your ranged weapons)

Whatwhatwhat?!

I think I finally found a reason to bother getting one. Thanks!

[Thrudh]

Whatwhatwhat?!

I think I finally found a reason to bother getting one. Thanks!

Oh yeah, and it goes off pretty often....

[slimkj]

Nice! Yeah I imagine as often as the armor proc, which i've enjoyed on a couple of DTs. Fab. I think with that and the Earth bow, or some other crafted CC bow, that'd make for some nice solo kiting fun out in open spaces.

[sephiroth1084]

One thing I'd say to the OP... If you're going Wisdom-based, it's hard to pass up Stunning Fist... It works very well on a wis-based monk. I know you don't want to melee much, but having Stunning Fist makes the occasional meleeing of trash MUCH easier.

So what I'm getting out of all the replies is that I should try to do the melee-less build, but expect to probably have to respec for some melee ability in order to maintain Ki. I want to try pure ranged first, though, since I really have no desire to play switch-hitter on someone with nearly all of their feats and build decisions aimed at being an archer.

If I do end up going back to the switch-hitter set-up with GTWF, I'll see about fitting in Stunning Fist, though I'm not sure what I'd drop for that (Shot on the Run looks somewhat attractive post-update, but maybe not). Can SF be taken with a regular feat, or can it still only be picked up as a monk bonus?

One major disappointment is that we still don't have the enhancement revamp with Deepwood Sniper, which I would probably enjoy more than AA, but can't plan for now, so I'm at risk of having to TR again, though that won't be a tremendous hardship, I should think.