Race for Druid and stats

[fatherpirate]

As I explained in following posts, some melee build possibilities, depending on their focuses could do just fine with fairly low WIS, primarily bear form more so than wolf. Multiclass types even more so.

That said, most druid type builds will want moderate to high WIS scores.

Agreed

Not all good druid builds are high WIS, the nukers are...the animals do ok with a fair WIS
and the hack and slash druids do best with just enuff to get the spell levels available to them.

druids are prob the most weapon swinging pure casters in game
and they got the hp to do it

[Expalphalog]

So the DC's for paralyze, trip and whatnot from wolf form are WIS based?

I don't really now how viable it is, but I was thinking of a sort of wolf based melee CC build where my main goal would be to keep things down/immobile (and DoTted if possible) while assisting the bigger, better, and badder melee toons with a little sneak attack damage when I can.

I was thinking Helf with Rogue dilly for the extra SA damage, but I'm also looking at that extra Human feat out of the corner of my eye wondering if the grass really is greener over there.

Would this build even be possible?

[decease]

as for now you can forget about melee druid..

why?

your last melee shape come at 8(or 9 can't remember)

your higher elemental shape are caster shape.. giving bonus to certain set of spell~~

your base melee shape ability are useless because they are all wisdom base..unless you want to flame blade all your way to epic..



now..as for caster..

your damage is way lesser then sorc of same level

you can self heal.. but not as good as wf sorc or wiz pm

you have a pet..but rather useless end game

your caster prestige forcing you to nuke with spell enemy are immune to every after a while

you lack cc such as web and disco.. and your dc are worsen then sorc of same level



p.s. am not sure how to build a druid right.. for now i see no right path. but this is just my opinion.. other may other their point of view...

[Diyon]

as for now you can forget about melee druid..

why?

your last melee shape come at 8(or 9 can't remember)

your higher elemental shape are caster shape.. giving bonus to certain set of spell~~

your base melee shape ability are useless because they are all wisdom base..unless you want to flame blade all your way to epic..



now..as for caster..

your damage is way lesser then sorc of same level

you can self heal.. but not as good as wf sorc or wiz pm

you have a pet..but rather useless end game

your caster prestige forcing you to nuke with spell enemy are immune to every after a while

you lack cc such as web and disco.. and your dc are worsen then sorc of same level



p.s. am not sure how to build a druid right.. for now i see no right path. but this is just my opinion.. other may other their point of view...

Melee- You get you last melee form early, but you get animal based spells all the way to lvl 9 spells. You can get over 26% doublestrike with no gear and fast wolf attack speed. I don't think this is an issue.

Spell damage, yes it's less than sorc, that's to be expected. However you get an awesome amount of persistant AOE's you can stack up.

Healing- you could self heal just as well as a WF arcane if not better, you get the heal spell and heal over time spells, not to mention you could heal a group too.

Pet- eh it's an add on.

Seasons PrE- you are by no means forced, and Summer covers light damage too. Winter covers icestorm, so some untyped there, cold, electric, acid from SoV. You can work around immunities.

CC- you don't get a lot of CC like the arcanes, but you do get Earthquake, which is pretty awesome, especially since you up its DC the same way you up you Nuking damage though DC, evocation.

[Chaimberland]

Human and half-elf are probably the best way to go. Elf would be fun for role playing purposes but hit to con hurts. Warforged shouldn't be allowed to be druids. Its just wrong.

[legendlore]

Human and half-elf are probably the best way to go. Elf would be fun for role playing purposes but hit to con hurts. Warforged shouldn't be allowed to be druids. Its just wrong.

Nothing wrong with warforged druids, they're made out of living wood after all. Personally I'd find it much more fun to role play a soul searching warforged trying to reconnect with his roots than another generic elf in the woods.

[Vesuvium]

they're made out of living wood after all. Personally I'd find it much more fun to role play a soul searching warforged trying to reconnect with his roots than another generic elf in the woods.

I see what you did there. Well played.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Pretty close to the truth - I once had a in-forum debate with Wax-On-Wax-Off about this (needless to say he ended up convincing me that my view that Humans were the best race overall viewpoint is not as clear-cut as I thought).

Basically I now feel that Human is probably optimum for the majority of casters, but Half-Elf is superior for most melees (except Barbarians).

I agree - i have a bunch of monks & multiclassed monks & half elf is now my preferred race for the cleric dilly... UMDing a Heal, raise or resto scroll is nice, but having that "count as level 10 cleric for item use" (even if you do have a fail chance vs. UMD) is far superior in some situations - like if you've just had a bunch of negative levels applied & no longer have the UMD to even look at the scroll

On classes that can self heal well enough anyway, you can get your free weapon proficiencies, saves, toughness or sneak attack dps boost while not missing out on other abilities (ok, will have to spend a few AP & effectively lose a feat vs. humans).

Having said that, i think my own druid is likely to be a warforged, since the "be a real boy" & "connecting with your roots" things made me giggle - plus i have a nice wf 2hander pally with some nice that could TR well into a melee one, once i've played around a little to see how they work, though subject to confirmation about ToD rings burst effects working in animal form, i have a monk lined up that could make for a good one too - but again, will likely still be a half elf & take monk dilly for healing amp

[Captain_Wizbang]

Human, caster with part time melee.
The devs did a good job on the class.
What most are not addressing is the difference in Eberron & F.R. content and how there will be subtle differences in how the build works.
A caster spec in FR is the way to go.
A caster/ melee spec in Eberron IMO will have a better playability.

It's a tough call, and up to personal choice.
My choice is Human caster all the way.

[Spartywinz]

Human, caster with part time melee.
The devs did a good job on the class.
What most are not addressing is the difference in Eberron & F.R. content and how there will be subtle differences in how the build works.
A caster spec in FR is the way to go.
A caster/ melee spec in Eberron IMO will have a better playability.

It's a tough call, and up to personal choice.
My choice is Human caster all the way.

I tested a completionist caster druid level 25 on Lam, was very lack luster, not exciting at all. Will test out a more melee focused build on live.

[jandragarious01]

Nothing wrong with warforged druids, they're made out of living wood after all. Personally I'd find it much more fun to role play a soul searching warforged trying to reconnect with his roots than another generic elf in the woods.

On that note, shouldn't the spell 'Shillelagh' work for unarmed WF? That would be cool for those with monk lvls, as long as it persists with hand wraps on.

[Osma77]

So the DC's for paralyze, trip and whatnot from wolf form are WIS based?

I don't really now how viable it is, but I was thinking of a sort of wolf based melee CC build where my main goal would be to keep things down/immobile (and DoTted if possible) while assisting the bigger, better, and badder melee toons with a little sneak attack damage when I can.

I was thinking Helf with Rogue dilly for the extra SA damage, but I'm also looking at that extra Human feat out of the corner of my eye wondering if the grass really is greener over there.

Would this build even be possible?

I plan on doing just that. Tried to make a high str wolf and it didn't impress me. What did were the shear number of penalty effects druids have. High speed wolf plus debuff weapons and effects ftw.

[fatherpirate]

Do remember

high level druids are going to be rather specialized
so they are going to be very gear dependant

some racial abilities are going to play heavily in druid builds
like halfling healer druids

This class is for the player that likes to specialize

'generic druids' are weak at high levels
and you would need a bunch of different gear sets just to function

I would even go to say...
Generic druids will likely be very rare or not exist at all in game.

[decease]

[QUOTE=Diyon;4530603]Seasons PrE- you are by no means forced, and Summer covers light damage too./QUOTE]

do we have any light damage? or you mean flame strike? last time i check it was bugged, even it weren't it won't do much damage. druid do not get the light dot spell as far as i can remember..

Winter covers icestorm, so some untyped there, cold, electric, acid from SoV. You can work around immunities.

the blunt damage are rather low.. about 1/2 of the damage. and as last time i check they have nerf the spell. also mind you that there are stuff that healed by cold damage...

you don't get a lot of CC like the arcanes, but you do get Earthquake, which is pretty awesome, especially since you up its DC the same way you up you Nuking damage though DC, evocation.

i assume all divine and arcane will get this as well.. well they should..

Melee- You get you last melee form early, but you get animal based spells all the way to lvl 9 spells. You can get over 26% doublestrike with no gear and fast wolf attack speed. I don't think this is an issue.

most of the form ability are not taht useful. doublestrike true, but your base damage cap at 1d10..(or 1d12 with reinforced fist). also you can't twf nor whf..

twf is about 180% base damage..
whf is around.. 170% base damage..

you attack 30% faster in wolf. so it is roughly 130% plus if you go wisdom base for ability dc you will have low ac and damage. as your strength won't be as high. (also double strike been offer in many places.. like monk's wind stance..etc personally i don't find them to be very powerful)

Spell damage, yes it's less than sorc, that's to be expected. However you get an awesome amount of persistant AOE's you can stack up.

persistant aoe? you men stuff like blood moon frenzy?

[Diyon]

[QUOTE=decease;4532208]

Seasons PrE- you are by no means forced, and Summer covers light damage too./QUOTE]

do we have any light damage? or you mean flame strike? last time i check it was bugged, even it weren't it won't do much damage. druid do not get the light dot spell as far as i can remember..

Yes, I know sunburst is in there, I believe there are a couple of others.


the blunt damage are rather low.. about 1/2 of the damage. and as last time i check they have nerf the spell. also mind you that there are stuff that healed by cold damage...

Not many are healed by cold, and yes its half the total damage, but it's something you can still work with. As I said, you could use fire spells during winter just fine.



i assume all divine and arcane will get this as well.. well they should..

By pnp, cleric and fvs should, wizard and sorc no.

most of the form ability are not taht useful. doublestrike true, but your base damage cap at 1d10..(or 1d12 with reinforced fist). also you can't twf nor whf..

twf is about 180% base damage..
whf is around.. 170% base damage..

you attack 30% faster in wolf. so it is roughly 130% plus if you go wisdom base for ability dc you will have low ac and damage. as your strength won't be as high. (also double strike been offer in many places.. like monk's wind stance..etc personally i don't find them to be very powerful)

Doublestrike is very powerful. For non TWF, doublestrike %= +% more DPS.

Lets say an attack does 100 damage.

TWF 180%, so 180 damage.
Wolf form 130%, a 130 damage, plus 26% increase (130 x 1.26), for a total of 163.8 damage. Unyielding sentinel shield ability can get another 9% in there I believe (130 x 1.35), for 175.5.

That's not bad IMO when you throw in the other abilities.


persistant aoe? you men stuff like blood moon frenzy?

No, I mean Wall of fire, body of the sun, ice storm, storm of vengeance, earthquake, entangle, and call lightning storm. The only ones of those that won't work at the same time are wall of fire+ice storm, or entangle+one of the fire ones, which isn't that big of a deal. You won't understand it until you have an acid storm flinging lightning bolts with an ice storm/wall of fire below it, while having random lightning strikes around you and a fire aura that does more than wall of fire does, AND have everything falling over in the middle of it, all at the same time. Then if you really feel like it, supplement that with some blasty spells and/or DoTs (creeping cold+greater creeping cold, creeping doom(an aoe dot))

Comments in green.

[Osma77]

before dec gets into it, i will make one quick comment diyon.

You said:
/Lets say an attack does 100 damage.

/TWF 180%, so 180 damage.
/Wolf form 130%, a 130 damage, plus 26% increase (130 x 1.26), for a total of 163.8 damage. Unyielding sentinel /shield ability can get another 9% in there I believe (130 x 1.35), for 175.5.

Ignoring your math, one of dec's main problems (because he dosen't feel that every other thing a druid can do makes up for bad damage) is that wolf form does horrible horrible damage.

Saying "lets say an attack does 100 damage" is the problem: it dosent. With str around 30, damage is around 25. An increase of 50 str (total 80) would only put the base damage at around 50. Yes it is that bad. I was just messing around in the forest and low 20's is accurate for a wolf around 30 str.

Of course i was attacking at such stupidly high speeds that it dosen't really matter. Dozens of doublestrike %, lots of attack speed buffs (wolf, blood moon, some frenzy enhancement, cant remember the name), and with a crit range of 18-20 before improved crit feat i was getting 100-120 crit damage about every 4-5 attacks. With about 4-7 attacks per second, that adds up. All that was without haste.

However, as dec says all the time, a reasonable barbarian can do tons more damage. Around 180 damage per second is far, far below what a barbarian, or even a gimped fighter, can dish out in a normal situation, so wolf damage is indeed far below what a normal twf would get.

Of course, each of those attacks were paralizing, lowering con, lowering wis, and often procing slay living, but none of that matters, because i wasn't doing 500+ damage per second.

[Osma77]

As for race, i'd say human, at least for me. I origionally went half elf fighter dilly, but desided to actually take fighter levels, so i went rogue dilly. While rogue dilly grants you 1d6 sneak attack, compared to what you already get as an animal with the prestige class, an extra 1d6 isn't a big deal, and i wouldn't want to spend 6 enhancement points to increase that by another 2d6.

In the race of extra skill points and extra feat, versus rogue dilly, human wins hands down, and i don't even have anywhere else i really need skill points or feats. (I can always go more umd/tumble or toughness. Dont need jump due to fighter levels, and dont need more balance since i max that out anyhow.)

[Diyon]

before dec gets into it, i will make one quick comment diyon.

You said:
/Lets say an attack does 100 damage.

/TWF 180%, so 180 damage.
/Wolf form 130%, a 130 damage, plus 26% increase (130 x 1.26), for a total of 163.8 damage. Unyielding sentinel /shield ability can get another 9% in there I believe (130 x 1.35), for 175.5.

Ignoring your math, one of dec's main problems (because he dosen't feel that every other thing a druid can do makes up for bad damage) is that wolf form does horrible horrible damage.

Saying "lets say an attack does 100 damage" is the problem: it dosent. With str around 30, damage is around 25. An increase of 50 str (total 80) would only put the base damage at around 50. Yes it is that bad. I was just messing around in the forest and low 20's is accurate for a wolf around 30 str.

Of course i was attacking at such stupidly high speeds that it dosen't really matter. Dozens of doublestrike %, lots of attack speed buffs (wolf, blood moon, some frenzy enhancement, cant remember the name), and with a crit range of 18-20 before improved crit feat i was getting 100-120 crit damage about every 4-5 attacks. With about 4-7 attacks per second, that adds up. All that was without haste.

However, as dec says all the time, a reasonable barbarian can do tons more damage. Around 180 damage per second is far, far below what a barbarian, or even a gimped fighter, can dish out in a normal situation, so wolf damage is indeed far below what a normal twf would get.

Of course, each of those attacks were paralizing, lowering con, lowering wis, and often procing slay living, but none of that matters, because i wasn't doing 500+ damage per second.

How is this any different than TWF? STR applies better for wolf form druid, as each increase to str applies the same to all attacks, but TWF it only applies half to 80% of them.

As for weapon damage. TWF can get khopesh (epic) at 2d8 17-20/x3. Wolf gets 1d10 15-20/x2. While yes, that's more there, its not ridiculously more, and we're comparing to Khopesh which is not always used and people are considered fine without that (many use scimitars, longswords, rapiers, SSs, etc). And any other weapon effects are kept over. For that matter you can put stuff like seeker on your offhand (shield), but not suffer DPS loss from it because you use your main hand for all the weapon abilities.

I'm just really not seeing this huge damage difference. Someone explain to me how this comes up. For instance, a lit II weapon.

STR: 18 base +2 tome +5 lvl +6 item, +3 exceptional, +2 enhancement, +4 animal growth, +2 rage = 42 STR, +16 mod

1d10 base= 5.5 average
STR mod= 16
Lit II
Holy= 7
Shocking burst= 3.5
Lightning strike= 9.15

That's 41.15 damage on a regular hit, not even considering crits, the wolf SA bonus, wolf attack abilities/enhancements, or other gear bonuses.

I'm really not seeing it.


Also, I'm not expecting this to do as much damage as barbarians, or full out melee classes. Druid gets self healing, buffs, aoe's and other stuff, so I wouldn't expect them to be the top damage dealers.

[decease]

before dec gets into it, i will make one quick comment diyon.

You said:
/Lets say an attack does 100 damage.

/TWF 180%, so 180 damage.
/Wolf form 130%, a 130 damage, plus 26% increase (130 x 1.26), for a total of 163.8 damage. Unyielding sentinel /shield ability can get another 9% in there I believe (130 x 1.35), for 175.5.

Ignoring your math, one of dec's main problems (because he dosen't feel that every other thing a druid can do makes up for bad damage) is that wolf form does horrible horrible damage.

Saying "lets say an attack does 100 damage" is the problem: it dosent. With str around 30, damage is around 25. An increase of 50 str (total 80) would only put the base damage at around 50. Yes it is that bad. I was just messing around in the forest and low 20's is accurate for a wolf around 30 str.

Of course i was attacking at such stupidly high speeds that it dosen't really matter. Dozens of doublestrike %, lots of attack speed buffs (wolf, blood moon, some frenzy enhancement, cant remember the name), and with a crit range of 18-20 before improved crit feat i was getting 100-120 crit damage about every 4-5 attacks. With about 4-7 attacks per second, that adds up. All that was without haste.

However, as dec says all the time, a reasonable barbarian can do tons more damage. Around 180 damage per second is far, far below what a barbarian, or even a gimped fighter, can dish out in a normal situation, so wolf damage is indeed far below what a normal twf would get.

Of course, each of those attacks were paralizing, lowering con, lowering wis, and often procing slay living, but none of that matters, because i wasn't doing 500+ damage per second.

1. blood moon only effect your pet i believe.. at least last time it does. you see the icon but it have no effect on you.

2. from cb phase 1 wolf have been attack at this speed, turbine claim it to be bugged.. and it never get fixed. it seem to be attacking way faster then 30%(the old wolf form have no bonus in attack speed.. they add that to description later in phase 4 i think) so likely you will be attacking at 30% rate when they finally decide to fix this. (please note that alot of things are still borken, like the berry. dev promised to have it function in public area..but they never get the job done..yet)

p.s. oh.. reguarding attack speed.. i have an acrobat toon with all the speed stuff.. and it all shown that druid attack speed may still be bugged.. so don't count on it to continue on release. (acrobat attack speed is 20%(prestige) + 10% gear + monk stance 10% + action boost(?% can't remember) + haste).

How is this any different than TWF? STR applies better for wolf form druid, as each increase to str applies the same to all attacks, but TWF it only applies half to 80% of them.

As for weapon damage. TWF can get khopesh (epic) at 2d8 17-20/x3. Wolf gets 1d10 15-20/x2. While yes, that's more there, its not ridiculously more, and we're comparing to Khopesh which is not always used and people are considered fine without that (many use scimitars, longswords, rapiers, SSs, etc). And any other weapon effects are kept over. For that matter you can put stuff like seeker on your offhand (shield), but not suffer DPS loss from it because you use your main hand for all the weapon abilities.

I'm just really not seeing this huge damage difference. Someone explain to me how this comes up. For instance, a lit II weapon.

STR: 18 base +2 tome +5 lvl +6 item, +3 exceptional, +2 enhancement, +4 animal growth, +2 rage = 42 STR, +16 mod

1d10 base= 5.5 average
STR mod= 16
Lit II
Holy= 7
Shocking burst= 3.5
Lightning strike= 9.15

That's 41.15 damage on a regular hit, not even considering crits, the wolf SA bonus, wolf attack abilities/enhancements, or other gear bonuses.

I'm really not seeing it.


Also, I'm not expecting this to do as much damage as barbarians, or full out melee classes. Druid gets self healing, buffs, aoe's and other stuff, so I wouldn't expect them to be the top damage dealers.

hmm where you get 15-20/x2 cri range? last time i check it was 17~20.. 16~20 with improve critical blunt..(or i might be wrong..)

also.. how is it different from twf you ask?

twf base off hand proc rate is 20% with three feat you get it to 80%.. you are really attacking 180% faster..

p.s. please correct me if am wrong.. but in ddo you apply full strength bonus to both weapon.. at least last time i play my ranger it does...did they change it in this expansion? or my data are outdate?

[Sarnind]

before dec gets into it, i will make one quick comment diyon.

You said:
/Lets say an attack does 100 damage.

/TWF 180%, so 180 damage.
/Wolf form 130%, a 130 damage, plus 26% increase (130 x 1.26), for a total of 163.8 damage. Unyielding sentinel /shield ability can get another 9% in there I believe (130 x 1.35), for 175.5.

Ignoring your math, one of dec's main problems (because he dosen't feel that every other thing a druid can do makes up for bad damage) is that wolf form does horrible horrible damage.

Saying "lets say an attack does 100 damage" is the problem: it dosent. With str around 30, damage is around 25. An increase of 50 str (total 80) would only put the base damage at around 50. Yes it is that bad. I was just messing around in the forest and low 20's is accurate for a wolf around 30 str.

Of course i was attacking at such stupidly high speeds that it dosen't really matter. Dozens of doublestrike %, lots of attack speed buffs (wolf, blood moon, some frenzy enhancement, cant remember the name), and with a crit range of 18-20 before improved crit feat i was getting 100-120 crit damage about every 4-5 attacks. With about 4-7 attacks per second, that adds up. All that was without haste.

However, as dec says all the time, a reasonable barbarian can do tons more damage. Around 180 damage per second is far, far below what a barbarian, or even a gimped fighter, can dish out in a normal situation, so wolf damage is indeed far below what a normal twf would get.

Of course, each of those attacks were paralizing, lowering con, lowering wis, and often procing slay living, but none of that matters, because i wasn't doing 500+ damage per second.

I have tested druid(level 20) wolf form on my completionist multiple melee past life and dps is horrible , 1d10 damage base is very weak compared with other geared melee