Updated Raid Feedback: Caught in the Web

[Anthios888]

Review:

Attempt 1
If the person with Ana's attention falls, she bugs and floats midair. Restarted.

Attempt 2
After getting Ana and beating down Lolth until she left and told us to flee, we were unable to figure out how to leave and the teleport-gate would not come down. We ran around for 30 minutes killing everything, chatting with Ana, admiring the sky, disabling spellwards, and looking for a way to leave. Increasing numbers of spell wards spawned. Restarted hoping we were seeing bugs spell wards.

After releasing, our party members was attacked and killed by spiders in the public area... Resetting the instance didn't help.

Attempt 3
Killed lots of legs which seemed to spawn monsters which finally seemed to let us finish off Lolth. Door's down.

The hand knock off effect, which puts you back at the beginning of the quest dead, is a frustrating mechanic. It really puts people on the spot, because it is a loooong run for someone to go back for them. I prefer death timers.

We spent three or four hours in the raid. It felt epic, especially without knowledge of the endless respawns. We got to the end of the raid and killed every portal keeper. We also killed/defeated Lolth at the end, and killed the rest of her respawning portal keepers. However, portal keepers stopped spawning. We never achieved the "Defeat the Portal Keepers to open the gate" objective. Then we found a stuck portal keeper on spot on the screenshot. Ana also got stuck on this spot. Killing the portal keeper brought us more guys, but we killed them all. The gate still did not open. We hypothesized that one drow may have fallen off. We looked for him unsuccessfully. We have 622 kills and cannot find any more monsters.

The stuck spot:


Very sad about the bugged out raid. Or maybe Aqueous was just too "uber."

[Nomical]

Ran the raid with Rocka. We had six people, difficulty epic normal. Hadn't been in before or read much about it.

Ana did take a bunch of damage during the end fight, said she was growing weak, and had no visible health left. Perhaps this caused the raid to not complete? That doesn't seem like a likely answer, though, because Ana is still active and responsive and the quest has no fail message. It seems more likely that a portal keeper bugged out.

Would be nice to have clearer "waves" of portal keepers, or DM text that lets you know how many more to expect, whether you have to kill them faster, etc. When we played it, we experienced infinite waves, even after killing Lloth, and then bugging into no mobs in the quest. We found an invisible bugged keeper once but then the quest cleared again without spawning anything new or completing.

I think that the raid is interesting, but very frustrating. I agreed that the falling-off port to beginning mechanic was extremely frustrating. Most party members who fell off found it most expediant to release, go top up in a tavern, and come back because the raid has no lock-out mechanic. This is kind of lame, but better as is than if we were forced to send someone back each time.

[dejafu]

Standing at the end, staring forlornly at the force field blocking our only exit...



...the lonely wind of the Demon Web the only thing keeping us company...



Wait, scratch that.

There was still HER.

No, not Lolth. We took care of her.

No... HER.



I hate her.

[dejafu]

In all seriousness, though, I can actually see this raid being pretty fun. The spell point damage isn't that hard to avoid once you get the hang of it. Kicking people back to the start after they fall off is... aggravating, to say the least.

But all in all, some really creative and fun stuff in here. It's certainly DIFFERENT than any other raid in the game.

Just glad we caught this possible problem before it went live.

And... just maybe... could we get some handwraps in the end rewards? <puppy-dog eyes>

[Qezuzu]

Excellent, we have a My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic reference on a piece of raid loot. Congratulations, Turbine devs, you're the first group in history to successfully finish developing an MMORPG.

[bbqzor]

The raid it's gotten in, 95% of enemies feature only single typed DR. Thus carry the right type of arrows and your good to go. Its also one of the most combat heavy raids in the game.

This could be, will see how the final version gets out and what roles archers wind up in as strats/pugs settle down, but its a valid point. Although I don't much like the idea of farming a raid to earn gear which is only really useful beating said raid... seems like itd be easier to just not do the raid. But thats some hyperbole too, theres plenty of trash to use it on game wide as well, I'm just making an example.

Also works good in a several other epic raids:
Dragon (DR/Magic)
Chrono (Single DR, /Good)
MA (Single DR, /Adamantine)
Really other then DQ, it works in all epic raids. Cuz in Lob - your fighting the pillars as your primary/most important target. They have no dr.

Not so much... against the Dragon Calomel is ahead and far easier to get, for Chrono theres no vendor sold good arrows so still need dr bypass given the quantity of arrows you burn, in MA the fortification on mobs typically renders a top construct weapon better since the increased crit profile is nullified, and the same on LoB vs pillars... its not always about DR in House C. I suppose you could cannith craft holy arrows for Chrono, but seriously I don't know anyone who would spend time doing that between every raid, heh. Maybe this bow will be the start of it =p

Not that there should be One Bow To Rule Them All, either... the game doesn't need another SoS situation. I'm completely fine with it being suboptimal in MA/LoB, to pick from the the above list, for example. Indeed there should be times to put it away. But I do feel that raid dropped bows should at least be able to get past good aligned DR, I mean we are playing the heros who are saving the world or whatever. It would just be unfortunate for the raid dropped, rare, supposed to be cool weapon, which completes the big cool set bonus, that got added in for DDO's first real expansion to like, you know, get thrown in a backpack at the drop of a hat against any mob with some moderate defenses. Or so goes my opinion anyhow.

Hopefully the other weapons may be slightly better tuned in those regards, as they don't even have the benefit of arrows to help in this department. Time will tell, but I hope we aren't faced with a binary decision of: new weapon and trinket for set bonus, or better dps/mods weapon with another trinket. I'd really like to see the new combos be appealing for at least typical heavy lifting use, the same as alchemical or greensteel have been historically. With no DR options and no cc effects, bow just doesn't do it for me in that department, but then maybe that's just me.

[Shade]

Not so much... against the Dragon Calomel is ahead and far easier to get, for Chrono theres no vendor sold good arrows so still need dr bypass given the quantity of arrows you burn,

Incorrect.
Target: Epic Elite Velah at 30% Fort (50% base, assuming you have no favored souls, but at least one Fury melee in the party to easily maintain his -20% fort debuff (its no save and dur = cooldown).

Char: Same as previously used.

Pinion:
Average Hit Damage
108.5 = 84-119(Weapon) + 7(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
508.75 = 423-580.5(Weapon) + 7(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
159.11 = 152.46 + 6.65

eColmel, Tier 3, +7 version:
Average Hit Damage
129.8 = 84-105(Weapon) + 35.3(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
366.8 = 282-345(Weapon) + 53.3(Bonus)

Average Natural 20 Damage
401.8 = 282-345(Weapon) + 88.3(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
148.76 = 111.68 + 37.09

Also consider I can't calculate the extra 5% speed, and that calomel won't stack well if anyone else is using the same procs, which can reduce its dps.

MA

MA, not sure what weapon you want me to use, maybe Epic Shatterbow:

Again, lets give the Pinion a bad case scenario: No favored soul, no one has Blast Chime, but have do have Melee with Fury (Fury is one of the most desirable EDs after all):
So fort set at 80%. 70% for Epic Shatter bow because Barrage only does 5% increments and I'll assume no one else has improved destruct.

Pinion:
Average Hit Damage
108.5 = 84-119(Weapon) + 7(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
508.75 = 423-580.5(Weapon) + 7(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
119.09 = 112.44 + 6.65

Epic Shatterbow:
Average Hit Damage
107.5 = 83-104(Weapon) + 14(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
324.5 = 279-342(Weapon) + 14(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
108.64 = 95.34 + 13.3

Re: Good arrows.. mm Can holy arrows not be crafted? I kinda thought arrow crafting went in at some point, tho never tested it myself. Just did a search for "arrows" in teh machien and it came up blank, maybe they were removed? odd.

Anyways, yea Pinion is kinda an eSoS style weapon. Yea it cant break dual type DR, but it can for the majority of single typed, and it tends to rule even against weapons that deal an insane +35 to +88 bonus dice, due to it's incredible base damage and expanded threat.

[Chette]

eColmel, Tier 3, +7 version:

Most people use the tier 3 level 16 Calomel with dragon bane crafted onto it instead of the tier 3 eCalomel, since the bane and greater bane stack.

Not sure whether it would affect the results of your calculations or not, but worth noting.

[Anthios888]

Most people use the tier 3 level 16 Calomel with dragon bane crafted onto it instead of the tier 3 eCalomel, since the bane and greater bane stack.

Not sure whether it would affect the results of your calculations or not, but worth noting.

This is only better for handwraps, because epic versions of other weapons have better base dice.

[Chette]

This is only better for handwraps, because epic versions of other weapons have better base dice.

Ahhh, the one person I've ever made Calomels for was my monk, didn't even notice that :P

[Glenalth]

It's also worth pointing out the e Calomel bows don't get the same vorpal proc of the melee weapons, they get a guard instead.

[Archangel666]

It's also worth pointing out the e Calomel bows don't get the same vorpal proc of the melee weapons, they get a guard instead.

This is incorrect. The bow gets the same effect.

[SisAmethyst]

mm yea. I see, bit confusing. But you could update the item to a platinum border to indicate its raid-quality status I guess, and we'd see that regardless of our proficiency status.

As is, it appears to be your standard named item. Relics deserve more

Was actaully expecting new examination borders when i read release notes, but old borders are fine.

Better yet completely abandon those borders? Still haven't figured out what actual value they bring especially as soon as I have looted the item and it is in my inventory.

[valorik]

I was in rock's group that ran it, I think they covered most of what we should say, but I just thought I'd come in and reiterate how much the falling off mechanic sucks, maybe just do it like in the demon web, that way the person can run back after they're ported there, and lose 200 sp. Still bad to fall off, but it doesn't waste everyone's time, just yours.

[bbqzor]

Incorrect. Target: Epic Elite Velah at 30% Fort... Char: Same as previously used...

I'm not going to go into assumed party comp to highlight specific weapons since that just opens a can of worms, or hypothetical builds (which that one is, as you admit) which also opens cans of worms. ECalomel is around 30ish per hit even without either dot mutation; perhaps with enough fort reduction and discounting the dots it loses out to an improved crit profile on a build looking to maximize crits... but it shouldn't take such measures for a lv25 epic raid weapon to trump a lv20 vending machine weapon (imo).

MA, not sure what weapon you want me to use, maybe Epic Shatterbow

I think a simple random lootgen epic +6 2d6 prefix or annihilation / smiting or gcb suffix from MotU would surpass EShatterbow pretty fast, but whatever its fine. MA is largely a non target at this point, if the new bow is better there for your math okay I'm not interested in working out otherwise.

Re: Good arrows.. mm Can holy arrows not be crafted? I kinda thought arrow crafting went in at some point, tho never tested it myself. Just did a search for "arrows" in teh machien and it came up blank, maybe they were removed? odd.

I suppose you could cannith craft holy arrows for Chrono, but seriously I don't know anyone who would spend time doing that between every raid, heh. Maybe this bow will be the start of it =p

If they were removed, moot point. If they weren't, maybe roll up your hypothetical to see exactly how fast you burn through arrows before citing crafted arrows as a viable permanent solution. Somewhat of a case of paper builds vs reality, as you often say. I mentioned it, since it is (or was, at least, if not now) technically possible, but honestly having to spend minutes into hours crafting that many arrows every time I logged in sounds like so much fun I'd rather eat the DR (barring some special fight like a cr30 challenge run or something). Its a situational fix for some cases, but I wouldn't want to rely on that for waves of trash with DR or several manyshots worth of uptime on a boss over 20 completions.

Anyhow, obviously at this level the devil is in the details, and working out specific builds or raid comps to validate weapon choice is beyond the scope of the raid feedback thread. I'm sticking to my opinion that, due to no "good" typing at a minimum this weapon will see more backpack time than it should. Perhaps if you do largely/mostly new content this will be minimized; and as yet unmentioned, perhaps the new set bonuses (which can only apply on this weapon, and so could be looked at as weapon mutations in a way) thrown into the math puts Pinion ahead enough you can skate by some minor DR. Its at least in the ballpark, which as I've said I hope the other items are at least as good, but with the distinct lack of some key types in the favor UI I was hoping for something a bit more edgy, and a bit less situational. I think my feedbacks been pretty clear, shared or not, so bowing out until something else shows up =p. Cheers, and again I don't want it to sound like I'm down on the loot, its not bad just see a bump in the road is all!

[LeLoric]

This is only better for handwraps, because epic versions of other weapons have better base dice.

Especially not true for bows as the bow user can just use crafted dragon bane arrows to get that bonus. As can the new bow too and actually it will leverage that 2 base dmg better due to higher crit range.

As for the dr bypass a heavy ranged user would probably consider twisting in stay good too for raids where they need double bypass giving them the good bypass and some extra light dmg.

The bow is really good. It's more than 10 points of dmg per shot over epic thornlord even giving the thornlord seeker 10 from elsewhere and not calculating in the alacrity.

For those who want numbers:

Pinion: .75*(2.5*7+7+x+7)+.2*(3*(2.5*7+7+x+10)+7);
45.725 + 1.35 x

Ethornlord w/ 10 seeker: .75*(2*6.5+8+x)+.2*(3*(2*6.5+8+x+10));
34.350 + 1.35 x

Ethornlord w/ 6 seeker: .75*(2*6.5+8+x)+.2*(3*(2*6.5+8+x+6));
31.950 + 1.35 x

x=additional dmg mod (without the weapon bonus)

This all assumes hit on a 2 but even at higher hits pinion still maintains its advantage.

extra 1(w) effects all help pinion more, higher dmg mod affects each the same, sonic resist (very rare) will help thornlord but it will never bypass pinion only get closer.

Thornlords only benefit is the slot.

[giggiddy]

I was in rock's group that ran it, I think they covered most of what we should say, but I just thought I'd come in and reiterate how much the falling off mechanic sucks, maybe just do it like in the demon web, that way the person can run back after they're ported there, and lose 200 sp. Still bad to fall off, but it doesn't waste everyone's time, just yours.

Or a portal mechanic like in Dreaming Dark where the quest has certain "checkpoints" that you reach and can teleport back to that last point from the start.

[LeLoric]

Or a portal mechanic like in Dreaming Dark where the quest has certain "checkpoints" that you reach and can teleport back to that last point from the start.

Portals don't matter as you are dead if you fall and back at the very start. So someone has to break off from the raid and come get you (ddoor doesn't work in lloth's realm).

[Gimpinator]

Incorrect...

[snip]

...

When you present damage reports, god kills a kitten.

[SisAmethyst]

Portals don't matter as you are dead if you fall and back at the very start. So someone has to break off from the raid and come get you (ddoor doesn't work in lloth's realm).

I guess giggiddy mean that there pop up some portals at the start that allow you to teleport closer to the party, not the other way around like the portals at the end of shroud that let you teleport to the start.