Updated Raid Feedback: Caught in the Web

[redspecter23]

That bow is somewhere between junk and uber junk IMHO

Unless I'm missing something, I'd have to agree. It looks to have an expanded natural crit range, but not much else going for it. Seeker 10 is available elsewhere or even on loot gen. Shrieking is ok, but on it's own can't save the weapon. I'm not a bow user so perhaps a ranged toon can chime in and let me know if that expanded crit range is really all that amazing in this case.

[Feather_of_Sun]

Unless I'm missing something, I'd have to agree. It looks to have an expanded natural crit range, but not much else going for it.

Not all of the mechanisms we use when designing items are immediately apparent at a first glance. It can sometimes take a close look at an item's stat block to gauge it's true worth.

In this case, it's not just the critical range. Take a look also at the damage die size, and the number of dice it rolls per attack.
[2.50]2d6 means that it deals 5d6 base physical damage per shot. Then on top of that, yes, the critical range is also doubled. It would be 17-20 if you have Improved Critical.

[slimkj]

Bow looks great to me. Mind you, my nicest bow is still a LitII.

[Lifespawn]

Not all of the mechanisms we use when designing items are immediately apparent at a first glance. It can sometimes take a close look at an item's stat block to gauge it's true worth.

In this case, it's not just the critical range. Take a look also at the damage die size, and the number of dice it rolls per attack.
[2.50]2d6 means that it deals 5d6 base physical damage per shot. Then on top of that, yes, the critical range is also doubled. It would be 17-20 if you have Improved Critical.

it states 2.5[2d6] so that means 2.5 is multiplying the 2d6? if so thats very nice but first glance didn't tell me that i might not be up to par with the new combat lingo tho 5d6 would seem to be the simple way to say that???

I'm guessing it's like that to minimize the effect of +W ?

[jejeba86]

Not all of the mechanisms we use when designing items are immediately apparent at a first glance. It can sometimes take a close look at an item's stat block to gauge it's true worth.

In this case, it's not just the critical range. Take a look also at the damage die size, and the number of dice it rolls per attack.
[2.50]2d6 means that it deals 5d6 base physical damage per shot. Then on top of that, yes, the critical range is also doubled. It would be 17-20 if you have Improved Critical.

I think it's a nice bow, but I'm not a bow user.
Anyway, as some pointed out, seeker +10 is now pretty common. So why don't you raise this cap, after all, it's the new top end game raid loot.
You did it with the 20% ranged alacrity, which made it pretty good in that.
I think an on crit effect would be nice too, in addition. could be something related to sonic.

[scoobmx]

Unless I'm missing something, I'd have to agree. It looks to have an expanded natural crit range, but not much else going for it. Seeker 10 is available elsewhere or even on loot gen. Shrieking is ok, but on it's own can't save the weapon. I'm not a bow user so perhaps a ranged toon can chime in and let me know if that expanded crit range is really all that amazing in this case.

It's the best bow yet. The next in line is epic thornlord at 2d8 +8 19-20 x3 or unwavering ardency at 2d12 +(3 or 5) 19-20 x3. This bow has better base damage, nice sonic damage (rarely resisted), and seeker 10 which is only available elsewhere on the cormyr red dragonscale docent if you are warforged. The only problem is that it won't be breaking DR since it has no slots.

[Ape_Man]

Not all of the mechanisms we use when designing items are immediately apparent at a first glance. It can sometimes take a close look at an item's stat block to gauge it's true worth.

In this case, it's not just the critical range. Take a look also at the damage die size, and the number of dice it rolls per attack.
[2.50]2d6 means that it deals 5d6 base physical damage per shot. Then on top of that, yes, the critical range is also doubled. It would be 17-20 if you have Improved Critical.

Like a Thornlord on Steroids . . . I like.

[Shade]

Alright I think this bow was done right, but let's check the numbers with Barrage vs the current Epic King of ranged dps (Epic Thornlord):

I'm gonna use a theoretically bowbarian build i been thinking up since I have no archer and honestly don't know the exact stats or feats of any top ranged builds atm. If you have a more real existing bow dps build (real DPS class please, ftr or bbn, no rangers) let me know the stats and I can adjust the figures for you.

Anyways char is:
Bowbarian, pure. Full ranged feats except I didn't include combat archery as I heard many reports of it being broken/non stacking with pbs and not upping the +w. So the +w used is just +1 from point blank shot. You could get more from some weird sources, but im gona assume maybe Fury ED, which has none as thats VERY powerful for ranged atm. (Adrenaline works on IPS)

So stats:
+70 damage mod before weapon (Extreme str, +6 dmg from fury, full gear, etc, figure may be off, just a estimation)
+3 (*6) crits on a 19-20 (This build couldn't fit overwhelming crit)
*3 crits on a 17-18. (IC: Ranged)
+10 seeker (Anyone crazy enough to get a Epic Thornlord certainly has mari chain)

Just the base damage, since thats pretty complex to calc itself:
Epic Thornlord:
3[1d8+4] = 3d8+12 (Not verified this, couldn't find Zexxi online to link the new W version, but this is what was discussed by devs iirc)
= 25.5 damage
+8 enhancement
= 33.5 average damage

+8.5 damage per +W if we find more ways to up it

Pinion, Cloud-piercer, Epic Relic:
3.5[2d6] = 7d6
= 24.5 average damage
+7 enhancement
= 31.5 average damage
+ 7 average sonic
= 38.5 average damage (Some not multipled on crits, and resistable)

+7 damage per +w

Barrage Results:
Epic Thornlord:
Average Hit Damage
103.5 = 93-114(Weapon) + 0(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
510.75 = 463.5-558(Weapon) + 0(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
179.78 = 179.78 + 0

Pinion, Cloud-piercer, Epic Relic:
Average Hit Damage
108.5 = 84-119(Weapon) + 7(Bonus)

Average Crit Damage
508.75 = 423-580.5(Weapon) + 7(Bonus)

Final Average Attack
183.13 = 176.48 + 6.65

Woot.. The Pinion wins! If only by 4 points of damage on average per shot, but it wins. Also keep in mind I didn't calc in the +5% speed over haste, tho realisticly that won't really result in a +5% dps increase, due to animation limits, maybe +2-3%.
If it was +5% = 192.28 dmg

The Epic Thornlord may pull slightly ahead for certain very specialized build with more +W. But thats probably fair, given it's likely a million times more difficult to get. (To date less then 10 players on Khyber have built one).

So yea, great job on this weapon +Feather. I hope you can do the same for the buffing pass on the falcion.

Oh yea I guess I can't end the thread without a bug report:
It lacks a raidloot xamine-border. (EG: Should be Platinum, not Gold, also believe icon-outline should be red, not orange?. same for staff.)

[Feather_of_Sun]

believe icon-outline should be red, not orange?. same for staff.)

A thin yellow line border around the icon, accompanied by a rectangle at the bottom with an exclamation point in it means that you are not proficient with that type of weapon.

The item in question does have a red border on it's icon- it's just that the non-proficiency border is on top of that (as it should be, as that is context-sensitive information).

[Shade]

A thin yellow line border around the icon, accompanied by a rectangle at the bottom with an exclamation point in it means that you are not proficient with that type of weapon.

The item in question does have a red border on it's icon- it's just that the non-proficiency border is on top of that (as it should be, as that is context-sensitive information).

mm yea. I see, bit confusing. But you could update the item to a platinum border to indicate its raid-quality status I guess, and we'd see that regardless of our proficiency status.

As is, it appears to be your standard named item. Relics deserve more

Was actaully expecting new examination borders when i read release notes, but old borders are fine.

[Glenalth]

Epic Thornlord base die is 2[1d8+2] before all the fancy Point Blank and Combat Archery increases.

[Schmoe]

Not all of the mechanisms we use when designing items are immediately apparent at a first glance. It can sometimes take a close look at an item's stat block to gauge it's true worth.

In this case, it's not just the critical range. Take a look also at the damage die size, and the number of dice it rolls per attack.
[2.50]2d6 means that it deals 5d6 base physical damage per shot. Then on top of that, yes, the critical range is also doubled. It would be 17-20 if you have Improved Critical.

I haven't run any numbers yet, but I have a hunch that this will turn out to be a very nice bow. The base stats are very solid. As for the seeker, just because some people have seeker +10 somewhere else doesn't mean that everyone will. This allows slot consolidation. The screaming is a nice bonus, too.

[junta74]

With this bow, all the AA's will want fatesinger ED for Harmonic Resonance. At least my Bardcher will.

[Archangel666]

Hmmm. Having looked at the bow, which generally seems nice, might I suggest you make a small change to the text?

Where it says Ranged Alacrity +20%, perhaps you should put in brackets (You only actually receive 10%), so as not to mislead people.

[Glenalth]

Hmmm. Having looked at the bow, which generally seems nice, might I suggest you make a small change to the text?

Where it says Ranged Alacrity +20%, perhaps you should put in brackets (You only actually receive 10%), so as not to mislead people.

Or better yet, code it as a 38-40% increase and just say it's 20% so it actually does what it says

[Bakarne]

The bow would be more appealing if it had the potential to break Good DR. The Collapsible Shortbow that I have and the Thornlord that will forever elude me at least have Red Augment slots. These bows are desirable because Good DR can be slotted while any metal type can be broken with the proper House Deneith arrows.

This is my primary gripe with the Epic Shatterbow - it's a great pillar and general construct beater, but it does not have the potential to break Good DR (i.e. the Lord of Blades) since it lacks a Red Augment slot. The new Epic Bow of the Silver Flame is excellent since it has Holy inherently (and also of course because of the blunt ammunition).

Unfortunately, this lack of flexibility and customization (ignoring rumors of randomization properties) seems to be a common theme for any of the new weapons in the expansion. The new weapons simply will remain lackluster when I already have epic weapons with 2[W] and double critical range slotted with Red Augments from tokens or eDA crystals. With the token nerfs, eDA crystals are rather useful for the myriad of weapons people have collected.

Or, it would be nice if Align Weapons scrolls were more readily available, not that it's possible to use one on yourself with a two-handed weapon like a bow.

[Sonofmoradin]

I bet the most loot will be from Heroism Commendations anyway that only drop in the raid.

[bbqzor]

Not all of the mechanisms we use when designing items are immediately apparent at a first glance. It can sometimes take a close look at an item's stat block to gauge it's true worth.

In this case, it's not just the critical profile. Take a look also at the damage die size, and the number of dice it rolls per attack.
[2.50]2d6 means that it deals 5d6 base physical damage per shot. Then on top of that, yes, the critical range is also doubled. It would be 17-20 if you have Improved Critical.

This and EThornlord have the same crit range, thus the same effect for things like +str, +dmg, etc. Its easy to compare them with just the base hit (modified by PBS).

3(1d8+2)+8 vs 3.5(2d6)+7; or 27.5 vs 31.5. Even without considering the seeker (potentially a wash) or the sonic (potentially resisted), Pinion wins in raw damage. And that also ignores the alacrity component, which as mentioned is minor at best but is still an improvement. It also ignores that EThornlord has 1 better attack, which again is minor at best, but I think virtually anyone in DDO at this level would take more haste over more attack any day of the week and twice on raid nights.

However, as you say Feather, not everything is apparent at first glance... Without any augment slot, and zero tags for bypassing DR, it isn't all that exciting against anything with even DR 5. EThornlord can be aug'd with good, then combined with arrows, to eliminate DR concerns.

So, Pinion is a winner... against trash mobs. Or if you perma group with an Arty. According to other threads, it may be possible to make this bow a Set Item with the new trinkets, potentially making it a combined improvement over say, EThornlord + Litany + Quiver of Alacrity once you factor a set bonus in... but again since you have to remove it anytime you're facing anything with a dual DR I'm not sure if I'd bother.

Bottom line, its a step in the right direction since, unlike many named items, its actually in the ballpark. But raid loot should be useful in raids: consider giving this thing either some DR tags, or maybe a self only click 1/shrine which gives it 5 minutes of good like the arty spell if you don't want it breaking DR full time. Even though its better raw damage against trash, one of the best possible uses of archery against trash is landing cc effects, meaning this may not be used even then.

And before anyone goes into bringing up twisting in alignment tags off a destiny to help on DR, you have to remember if you go down that road the comparison becomes Pinion plus alignment destiny vs EThornlord vs another destiny... and with the plethora of very solid dps options, I hesitate to call that a solution. A workaround perhaps, but I suspect (without going through every possible destiny combo etc) that EThornlord plus other twists would gain more than Pinion plus dr twists.

As it stands, the only real reason to grind this out is.... its less of a grind than EThornlord. Likely by a large margin. Maybe as DDO moves forward you are not intending to use mobs with dual DR types anymore, which lessens the concern, but coming off 6 years of raid bosses with dual types, I'm simply raising the point now, while theres a feedback thread on the subject. Thanks, cheers.

[Rumbaar]

[2.50]2d6 means that it deals 5d6 base physical damage per shot. Then on top of that, yes, the critical range is also doubled. It would be 17-20 if you have Improved Critical.

I don't understand why you force the change from 1d6 to 1 - 6 damage to make it 'easier' for new players and annoy D&D players with the non dice notations.

Then you introduce [2.50]2d6 ... which in fact means 5d6, why does Turbine confuse it's focus on dice notations like this?

[Shade]

But raid loot should be useful in raids: consider giving this thing either some DR tags, or maybe a self only click 1/shrine which gives it 5 minutes of good like the arty spell if you don't want it breaking DR full time.

The raid it's gotten in, 95% of enemies feature only single typed DR.

Thus carry the right type of arrows and your good to go. Its also one of the most combat heavy raids in the game.

Also works good in a several other epic raids:
Dragon (DR/Magic)
Chrono (Single DR, /Good)
MA (Single DR, /Adamantine)

Really other then DQ, it works in all epic raids. Cuz in Lob - your fighting the pillars as your primary/most important target. They have no dr.

Think only flesh renders got cold iron + good, mosts everything else in there is cold iron OR good.