Updated Raid Feedback: Caught in the Web

[Nines9]

So they're trying to make it so you don't have any all caster or mostly caster runs with the sp drain mechanic. Can simply have a high healing amp fvs or wiz-rogue/wiz-monk with high saves "tank" Lolth and just be healed by 1 of the 11 other casters when needed. Meanwhile the rest of the casters destroy the trash from cover.

Good attempt, but still irrelevant. Absolute class rolls ("hey, you fvs/clr, get back behind that rock where you belong so you can be my babysitter") are not so much good and people will always find ways around them.

[sirgog]

LOB, MA, and Abbot are still annoying and un-fun.

Has Titan ever stopped being annoying?

Speak for yourself. Two of those (LOB and Abbot) remain among my favorite raids (except for the non-combat phase in Abbot while the whole raid waits for tiles to finish).

People that are posting personal opinions as fact should be ignored in feedback. The so-called 'fact' that escort missions are unpopular is flat-out wrong - I have not seen a single complaint on the forums (and I'm here a lot) about Waterworks part 2, which is probably one of the most frequently run quests in the game and has an escort component to it that can be failed.


I personally dislike the Titan raid and the Reaver's Fate raid but I'm not going to say they are un-fun for the whole community. Reaver in particular serves a purpose as a very forgiving introduction to aggro control in DDO for people that haven't raided in the game before.

[Auran82]

Speak for yourself. Two of those (LOB and Abbot) remain among my favorite raids (except for the non-combat phase in Abbot while the whole raid waits for tiles to finish).

People that are posting personal opinions as fact should be ignored in feedback. The so-called 'fact' that escort missions are unpopular is flat-out wrong - I have not seen a single complaint on the forums (and I'm here a lot) about Waterworks part 2, which is probably one of the most frequently run quests in the game and has an escort component to it that can be failed.


I personally dislike the Titan raid and the Reaver's Fate raid but I'm not going to say they are un-fun for the whole community. Reaver in particular serves a purpose as a very forgiving introduction to aggro control in DDO for people that haven't raided in the game before.

Waterworks part 2 isn't exactly a long escort, you can clear the path the npc takes and not talk to them until you are ready to, then is a 30 second run to the exit.

LoB is mainly disliked due to the pre-raid section (and personally for the pointless removal of the rest shrine before the main fight on epic), Abbot isn't so bad because at least if one of the puzzles if failed, it's not exactly a long fight to get to that point.

Personally Titan *could* definately be made into a more interesting fight, but its something that isn't exactly run much due to the pre-raid (and the fact that I think the number of people who still remember how to do it well has decayed some over the years)

The simple fact is, if you removed the 'NPC Damage determines your loot' section of this raid, put something else in to hurt casters instead of sp damage (like spellpower debuffs or something else) and removed the whole 'get knocked off, end up somewhere random' thing (maybe put 'penalty boxes' along the path you take, so if you fall off, your party just has to rescue you or something like that) the raid might be better received. The map being confusing is something we will learn over time, but the main annoying mechanics are the things people seem to be most upset about.

[B0ltdrag0n]

People that are posting personal opinions as fact should be ignored in feedback.

You don't say.

The so-called 'fact' that escort missions are unpopular is flat-out wrong - I have not seen a single complaint on the forums (and I'm here a lot) about Waterworks part 2, which is probably one of the most frequently run quests in the game and has an escort component to it that can be failed.

The escort portion cannot be failed unless you are purposefully trying to make it harder by not clearing a path. A 'choice' I might add from the player perspective. Also your logic is imprecise here since just because 'you' do not hear complaints does not mean it is universally loved either.

That is a Type II error in statistics btw.

I personally dislike the Titan raid and the Reaver's Fate raid but I'm not going to say they are un-fun for the whole community. Reaver in particular serves a purpose as a very forgiving introduction to aggro control in DDO for people that haven't raided in the game before.

Let me retort using a quote from a man who is generally wise on these forums .

People that are posting personal opinions as fact should be ignored in feedback.

[MeliCat]

First part of Weap Ship. Last part of Rit Sac. Stopping the Shauhagrin even? Trying to think of others in game.


I guess the reason why we don't absolutely LOATHE these as compared with bloody Coyle is there is an element of control. There is an element of time to setup up, only a certain period of time to babysit. They have reasonable hp? The AI is not unbelieveably stupid? (Arlos' is - but as you say you can clear his path). Coyle I suspect we hate so much as it's the *whole* time.

If we can work out why we hate Coyle so much as compared with these others maybe we can suggest some changes?

[Galeria]

Healers, on the other hand, will have the easiest time avoiding this damage altogether. We left plenty of rocks and other random phallic objects for you guys to hide behind.

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

Unless there is some other meaning than defined by the dictionary that I don't know about, I am expecting a lot of elongated, columnal objects with roundish ends...

phallic   [fal-ik]
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or resembling a phallus.
2.
of or pertaining to phallicism.
3.
genital ( def. 2b ) .

I am extremely curious now to run this raid and see these objects for myself...

(Feel free to edit this post if needed, Cordovan... I mean, I really looked for something else it might mean. I really did!)

[Auran82]

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

Unless there is some other meaning than defined by the dictionary that I don't know about, I am expecting a lot of elongated, columnal objects with roundish ends...

phallic   [fal-ik]
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or resembling a phallus.
2.
of or pertaining to phallicism.
3.
genital ( def. 2b ) .

I am extremely curious now to run this raid and see these objects for myself...

(Feel free to edit this post if needed, Cordovan... I mean, I really looked for something else it might mean. I really did!)

You could have just said *****.

*waits for Gawna to arrive*

[Lifespawn]

First part of Weap Ship. Last part of Rit Sac. Stopping the Shauhagrin even? Trying to think of others in game.


I guess the reason why we don't absolutely LOATHE these as compared with bloody Coyle is there is an element of control. There is an element of time to setup up, only a certain period of time to babysit. They have reasonable hp? The AI is not unbelieveably stupid? (Arlos' is - but as you say you can clear his path). Coyle I suspect we hate so much as it's the *whole* time.

If we can work out why we hate Coyle so much as compared with these others maybe we can suggest some changes?

they can be healed their health doesn't determine loot1 hp = success

[sirgog]

First part of Weap Ship. Last part of Rit Sac. Stopping the Shauhagrin even? Trying to think of others in game.


I guess the reason why we don't absolutely LOATHE these as compared with bloody Coyle is there is an element of control. There is an element of time to setup up, only a certain period of time to babysit. They have reasonable hp? The AI is not unbelieveably stupid? (Arlos' is - but as you say you can clear his path). Coyle I suspect we hate so much as it's the *whole* time.

If we can work out why we hate Coyle so much as compared with these others maybe we can suggest some changes?

Coyle initially was hated because he was so extremely fragile and so hyper aggressive, plus he healed the Iron Golems (which are among the tougher foes in that quest) and was unbuffable and unhealable. (Not sure if Mass Cure Light hit him when the quest came out, but MCLW was not easy to boost at the 10 level cap).

Now he's hated because he's still fragile (although no longer quite as aggressive) and also from memories of when he was even worse than he is now. Plus sometimes a mob just two-shots him when he's lying on the ground and you haven't even seen the mob yet.

I suspect Threnal East 3 would no longer be hated (except for the memory factor) if Coyle's HP were raised to 2000, he was given sensible spells like Acid Rain, and the XP was raised.

Arlos, OTOH, is tough in WW. More HP than players, and what seems to be decent HP and saves. For the quest, he's a badass. My one embarrassing WW fail came as a result of me being left to solo the escort on a level 3 Sorc while the other person did irrelevant things elsewhere - once you are running on Echoes of Power, you don't have many ways to get aggro in a hurry and untrained Intimidate did not cut it. He took a long time to die.

That's true of Ana too - in fact, AFAICT she is quite a bit tougher than Arlos, or Paetus in Ritsac, or even Viercha in Epic Last Stand.


What is a clear fact is that with the exception of the Coyle escort (and to a lesser extent the escort phase of Acute Delerium Hard/Elite when solo/duoing), there are no escort quests that generate anywhere near as many complaints on the forums as the puzzle quests do. I've seen literally dozens of 'the Pit sucks' or 'Tomb of the Tormented ***?' or 'Crucible - ugh' threads and have seen very few for non-Coyle, non-Acute Delerium escorts.

[Auran82]

What is a clear fact is that with the exception of the Coyle escort (and to a lesser extent the escort phase of Acute Delerium Hard/Elite when solo/duoing), there are no escort quests that generate anywhere near as many complaints on the forums as the puzzle quests do. I've seen literally dozens of 'the Pit sucks' or 'Tomb of the Tormented ***?' or 'Crucible - ugh' threads and have seen very few for non-Coyle, non-Acute Delerium escorts.

To be fair though, tomb of the tormented does sorta fall into the NPC escort quest (with the rats), Crucible can be tough if you don't know the maze (ahh the memories of taking 2 hours to get through that maze on release day) though the swim is probably the breaking point on that quest if you don't have someone who can do it well. The pit isn't so much the puzzles, but the awful map you have to work with in there that causes the most headaches.

Escort quests will always be tainted by memories of Threnal, when you would have 30 seconds to go and Coyle would get the dreaded 'Acid breath of doom' which you could do nothing about. It's not always the escort part as such, just having to rely on NPCs in general.

[MeliCat]

Oh add to the list that quest just to the right as you exit your ship in the marketplace.... again suicide AI, not many hp and a large babysit time factor...

(failed 2 man elite... sigh.... hireling AI bugged too...and me an average player of course :P )

[goblean]

People that are posting personal opinions as fact should be ignored in feedback. The so-called 'fact' that escort missions are unpopular is flat-out wrong - I have not seen a single complaint on the forums (and I'm here a lot) about Waterworks part 2, which is probably one of the most frequently run quests in the game and has an escort component to it that can be failed.

Hey sirgog can you do me a special super flavor? Type escort missions into ye olde google box and let me know what comes up.

and hey the first link(tvtropes) gives DDO a special shoutout!

WW part deux is more of a clear the the whole dungeon, then show the guy the exit no ambushes etc. Pretty much every time I have run someone in chat states don't talk to him until everything is clear.

[FlimsyFirewood]

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

Unless there is some other meaning than defined by the dictionary that I don't know about, I am expecting a lot of elongated, columnal objects with roundish ends...

phallic   [fal-ik]
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or resembling a phallus.
2.
of or pertaining to phallicism.
3.
genital ( def. 2b ) .

I had the misfortune of attending an art history class that taught me that EVERY SINGLE VERTICAL LINE is a phallic symbol.

Exhibit A: Example of phallic symbolism in art.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_0LoAPcLFTA...0/IMG_5159.JPG

Exhibit B: Real life.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...et,_Boston.jpg

Enjoy the rest of it.

[BruceTheHoon]

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

Unless there is some other meaning than defined by the dictionary that I don't know about, I am expecting a lot of elongated, columnal objects with roundish ends...

phallic   [fal-ik]
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or resembling a phallus.
2.
of or pertaining to phallicism.
3.
genital ( def. 2b ) .

I am extremely curious now to run this raid and see these objects for myself...

(Feel free to edit this post if needed, Cordovan... I mean, I really looked for something else it might mean. I really did!)

As anyone who's read Asterix, I know that druids and menhirs go together.


Enjoy your rock hugging!

[destiny4405]

this thread got interesting



also known as 'woman's dream'

[slimkj]

The so-called 'fact' that escort missions are unpopular is flat-out wrong - I have not seen a single complaint on the forums (and I'm here a lot) about Waterworks part 2, which is probably one of the most frequently run quests in the game and has an escort component to it that can be failed.

Do you know anyone who actually escorts him with mobs alive? Every single run I've ever done has been;

• (Optionally clear to shrine first)
• Clear prison
• Talk to him to open drawbridges
• Talk to him and tell him to stay put
• Clear rest of dungeon
• Go back to him, talk, go to exit

Which is why nobody complains about him, because you can completely nullify his involvement in the quest and he need never even face harm.

Everyone I've spoken to about it dislikes escort/protect NPC quests. Not a fact, but I suspect a commonly held feeling.

[Bakarne]

So, how many deaths will occur due to so and so player being blocked? The game doesn't let you cast through phallic objects.

Also, from what I'm gathering this raid has...

Coyle - and the community rates Hold for Reinforcements the worst quest in the game.
Maze - and the community rates Tomb of the Tormented the second worst quest in the game.
SP drain
Phallic objects that will block heals at critical moments

Raid loot with randomized properties - ToD already has a loot list that is far too large - Dragontouched randomization is universally despised, 95% of Rahl's Might/Dream Edges get sold to the vendor.

# of chests dependent on performance with Coyle and the Maze?

Wow, no wonder my guild is moving on and looking for expansion refunds.

[Chette]

You managed to misquote me. I never said 'divines' in that post. I said healers. There is a difference. Look up some builds, talk to your guildies.

Ah, I see. So you have designed a raid that has only room for healers, and not casters?

The potions from the store argument is silly and invalid. We sell HP potions in the store too, should our raid bosses stop hitting you in the HP? I mean, what's up with that? Next thing you know, they might even kill you.

Oh my goodness, you can't possibly be serious can you? If you are looking for an argument that is silly and invalid, look no further than your own post. That you could possibly compare SP potions and HP potions is beyond ludicrous and displays either total ignorance, or a deliberate antagonizing attitude to the feedback you are receiving. SP potions are not purchasable in game, and SP can only be regained in significant amounts by said potions, or through a few finite clickies, the more useful of which are rather rare (or by torcing, which is nigh impossible in the middle of a raid frenzy...especially if you're hiding behind a rock). HP potions on the other hand are purchasable from general vendors, and are a drop in the bucket of the HP of any end game player. I can't think of anybody who runs around chugging cure serious potions at end game, never mind cure serious potions purchased from the DDO store. We have spells and abilities to heal our HP. But I really shouldn't need to say any of this, which is inherently obvious to anybody with even basic knowledge of the game.

[FlimsyFirewood]

Ah, I see. So you have designed a raid that has only room for healers, and not casters?

...

But I really shouldn't need to say any of this, which is inherently obvious to anybody with even basic knowledge of the game.

Your post indicates you have not played the raid. This is a feedback thread.

For the last time, spell point damage in this raid is not meant to suck TP right out of your account. It's punitive mechanic (yes, we know) specifically made to punish mistakes. A healer, caster, divine caster, ranged dps, melee dps, etc etc = a skilled player will not get hit by this. We don't expect you to stand there next to the tank and just take it in the face over and over again. If you're doing this, and then chug store point potions, you're doing this wrong. This is a tool we use, in this particular instance, to let you know that you're standing in the wrong place and you should probably move. I will not stoop to explain the basics of playing an action MMO here. I presume that a player who has leveled a 20 character has minimal situational awareness to "not stand in the fire" during boss fights. And in this case, the fire is burning your spell points. When you stand in the spell point fire, you make a designer do a double facepalm and then stab a kitten with a spork. Please think of the sporks*.

In closing, the signal to noise ratio so far has been abysmal, I see very little actionable feedback. To summarize the thread:

1. I/We/Everybody/Some Players hate escort quests
2. Spell point damage really?
3. I/We/Everybody/Some Players hate mazes
4. There was one person who wondered about something being WAI, and it was.
5. Too annoying/Not enough challenge

We now return you to the regular scheduled broadcasting.

* No actual kittens/sporks are being stabbed/harmed here at Turbine, do not try this at home.

[Cyr]

Your post indicates you have not played the raid. This is a feedback thread.

For the last time, spell point damage in this raid is not meant to suck TP right out of your account. It's punitive mechanic (yes, we know) specifically made to punish mistakes. A healer, caster, divine caster, ranged dps, melee dps, etc etc = a skilled player will not get hit by this. We don't expect you to stand there next to the tank and just take it in the face over and over again. If you're doing this, and then chug store point potions, you're doing this wrong. This is a tool we use, in this particular instance, to let you know that you're standing in the wrong place and you should probably move. I will not stoop to explain the basics of playing an action MMO here. I presume that a player who has leveled a 20 character has minimal situational awareness to "not stand in the fire" during boss fights. And in this case, the fire is burning your spell points. When you stand in the spell point fire, you make a designer do a double facepalm and then stab a kitten with a spork. Please think of the sporks*.

In closing, the signal to noise ratio so far has been abysmal, I see very little actionable feedback. To summarize the thread:

1. I/We/Everybody/Some Players hate escort quests
2. Spell point damage really?
3. I/We/Everybody/Some Players hate mazes
4. There was one person who wondered about something being WAI, and it was.
5. Too annoying/Not enough challenge

We now return you to the regular scheduled broadcasting.

* No actual kittens/sporks are being stabbed/harmed here at Turbine, do not try this at home.

Yeah we get it you do not want to hear that players dislike the basic design elements of this raid.

That is a risk you run when you combine multiple unpopular elements into a single raid.