Updated Raid Feedback: Caught in the Web

[Carpone]

Situational awareness is good.

Mana draining melees with blue bars is bad.

[goblean]

Healers, on the other hand, will have the easiest time avoiding this damage altogether. We left plenty of rocks and other random phallic objects for you guys to hide behind.

This sounds like an awesome change! I didn't see it listed in the release notes that casters will now be able to cast curative magic through solid objects. I assume this will be released with the xpac?

[jakeelala]

im so glad im not a turbine dev. you guys are biggest bunch of whiney babies i've seen in one place in my whole life.

melees have been useless for like 3 years until LOB and it's still only 1 raid in the whole game. Now there's two whole places where a spell caster cant be a solo star and you're all crying to high heaven.

cry me a river.

[meathook2012]

Encouraging a melee to tank lolth instead of caster is unfun?

not in my book. Melees are meant to be the tanks.
.

I guess pallys arnt tanks

[Charononus]

im so glad im not a turbine dev. you guys are biggest bunch of whiney babies i've seen in one place in my whole life.

melees have been useless for like 3 years until LOB and it's still only 1 raid in the whole game. Now there's two whole places where a spell caster cant be a solo star and you're all crying to high heaven.

cry me a river.

Yes because your pure melee never needs a divine to heal them, guess what the divine gets zapped a couple times your melee is going to be real sad too.

[meathook2012]

OR how about this, you only get he SP debuff if you have magical training? (which pallys/rangers do not get). then BOOM, no problems for Pallys and rangers. but yet the "no arcane/Fvs/Cleric/druid" tanks allowed.

[Voldomar]

I guess pallys arnt tanks

Look at bright side: they are not healers. Otherwise they would be strongly encouraged to play with phallic objects

[danotmano1998]

melees have been useless for like 3 years until LOB and it's still only 1 raid in the whole game. Now there's two whole places where a spell caster cant be a solo star and you're all crying to high heaven.

The problem with this comparison is that in LOB, you don't kill off your healers ability to do their job by not hiding in the right spot.

If they wanted to encourage a melee (no SP bar) tank, all they had to do is surround the boss with an aura of antimagic. Done.
Heck, give it a beholders ability to debuff/ shoot anti-magic now and then.
Give the boss a stunning blow that imposes a spell power penalty that stacks.

There are LOTS of other really good solutions to this that don't kill the whole pugs ability to survive. I just came up with 3 off the top of my head in 10 seconds, and I have no doubt whatsoever that Turbine people can do a whole lot better if they tried.

[Charononus]

The problem with this comparison is that in LOB, you don't kill off your healers ability to do their job by not hiding in the right spot.

If they wanted to encourage a melee (no SP bar) tank, all they had to do is surround the boss with an aura of antimagic. Done.
Heck, give it a beholders ability to debuff/ shoot anti-magic now and then.
Give the boss a stunning blow that imposes a spell power penalty that stacks.

There are LOTS of other really good solutions to this that don't kill the whole pugs ability to survive. I just came up with 3 off the top of my head in 10 seconds, and I have no doubt whatsoever that Turbine people can do a whole lot better if they tried.

This

[Yalina]

Come on, it's a nice thing!! Now you can pike with your divine behind a rock till the barbarian tanks Lolth with silver flame pots! Finally a good raid for any divine!!

[Drwaz99]

The problem with this comparison is that in LOB, you don't kill off your healers ability to do their job by not hiding in the right spot.

If they wanted to encourage a melee (no SP bar) tank, all they had to do is surround the boss with an aura of antimagic. Done.
Heck, give it a beholders ability to debuff/ shoot anti-magic now and then.
Give the boss a stunning blow that imposes a spell power penalty that stacks.

There are LOTS of other really good solutions to this that don't kill the whole pugs ability to survive. I just came up with 3 off the top of my head in 10 seconds, and I have no doubt whatsoever that Turbine people can do a whole lot better if they tried.

I so feel bad for the new healers that are lvling now, can't wait to do this eventually, then get in there as a greenhorn healer and just get absolutely destroyed by not knowing where to stand exactly. Then getting destroyed by party members who blacklist him for screwing it up.

It happens now, so I can see it being exponentially worse come this. It will be the new eLoB which are almost never pugged sans a spot or two. (Or I have seen just about 0 in the last 6mo. for epic)

Well, that's what Turbine/Devs/Producers want, then they are are on the right track.

[LeoLionxxx]

This sounds like an awesome change! I didn't see it listed in the release notes that casters will now be able to cast curative magic through solid objects. I assume this will be released with the xpac?

This was in patch 13.2. Although it got removed for some reason...

[slimkj]

But spell point damage stays. Its function is punitive: if you get zapped for spell point damage (and you have a mana bar), then you were clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time. Further, this damage is much, much higher on elite and hard. It's statted as "something skilled players will never get hit with". There's a pattern for people to learn and follow. This is raid content and it will require people to exhibit a certain level of skill to be successful.

I can see the reasoning, but as people have said; with SP purchasable in the store this could be perceived as grubby. You say skill is required to be successful, but that's not really true any more, because you could have low skill and refill the lost SP via TP via $$.

Personally I don't mind it, it's a valid attack method and a good way to make classes take care when thinking about environmental positioning, party layout and so on. I do think it's a bit shakey image-wise though.

[MeliCat]

And bards? Lol. I guess we go hang out with the rangers and pallys and anyone DPSing with a blue bar....A character that does not fit neatly into one those 3 roles by design becomes a third of what it can be...

[patang01]

The problem with this comparison is that in LOB, you don't kill off your healers ability to do their job by not hiding in the right spot.

If they wanted to encourage a melee (no SP bar) tank, all they had to do is surround the boss with an aura of antimagic. Done.
Heck, give it a beholders ability to debuff/ shoot anti-magic now and then.
Give the boss a stunning blow that imposes a spell power penalty that stacks.

There are LOTS of other really good solutions to this that don't kill the whole pugs ability to survive. I just came up with 3 off the top of my head in 10 seconds, and I have no doubt whatsoever that Turbine people can do a whole lot better if they tried.

That assumes of course that it isn't easier to zap sp.

[patang01]

I can see the reasoning, but as people have said; with SP purchasable in the store this could be perceived as grubby. You say skill is required to be successful, but that's not really true any more, because you could have low skill and refill the lost SP via TP via $$.

Personally I don't mind it, it's a valid attack method and a good way to make classes take care when thinking about environmental positioning, party layout and so on. I do think it's a bit shakey image-wise though.

It would be more interesting if players could do the same to the read named priestesses that spam hold, cometfall etc and then replenish life through killing super rangers. Personally I don't mind interesting tactics if it's a two way street - if it just becomes another lazy feature to poke players in the eyes it gets tiring. Like those Astral Panthers before they become more trippy - really only meant to kick playlers in the stones since they offer nothing but grief and no reward. Mechanics like these are an excuse to say 'Ops - you no skeelful enough - sorry'.

[sirgog]

Abbot Inferno does a lot of spellpoint damage too, but this seldom comes up as, well, skilled players aren't hit by it unless they've decided to PLIS through this specific Inferno.

I do think you should consider ramping the effect up over time though (perhaps the first hit does 20 SP damage and puts a debuff on you that makes you take +200% SP damage, so you take 20, then 60, then 100, then 140, etc).

[Gimpinator]

Two completions without raid loot. First run had 6 people and we completed with no optionals. Second had 10 people and we completed three artifacts.

[Elaril]

We're working really hard on this raid right now. There will be some changes, some of them you might not even hate.

But spell point damage stays. Its function is punitive: if you get zapped for spell point damage (and you have a mana bar), then you were clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time. Further, this damage is much, much higher on elite and hard. It's statted as "something skilled players will never get hit with". There's a pattern for people to learn and follow. This is raid content and it will require people to exhibit a certain level of skill to be successful.

Healers, on the other hand, will have the easiest time avoiding this damage altogether. We left plenty of rocks and other random phallic objects for you guys to hide behind. I expect casters and ranged dpsers to have a harder time with this.

Paladins and melee fvs will still be viable because there will be plenty of things for them to tank and beat down, besides Lolth, and the raid will require multiple tanks. It's just one of these tanks should probably not have a mana bar if he or she likes blue pixels on their screen.

So what you are saying is that you have not only put every single annoying quest/raid mechanic ever incorporated in ddo, but you are actually introducing new, potentially more annoying, mechanics? Why?

[LeLoric]

We're working really hard on this raid right now. There will be some changes, some of them you might not even hate.

But spell point damage stays. Its function is punitive: if you get zapped for spell point damage (and you have a mana bar), then you were clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time. Further, this damage is much, much higher on elite and hard. It's statted as "something skilled players will never get hit with". There's a pattern for people to learn and follow. This is raid content and it will require people to exhibit a certain level of skill to be successful.

Healers, on the other hand, will have the easiest time avoiding this damage altogether. We left plenty of rocks and other random phallic objects for you guys to hide behind. I expect casters and ranged dpsers to have a harder time with this.

Paladins and melee fvs will still be viable because there will be plenty of things for them to tank and beat down, besides Lolth, and the raid will require multiple tanks. It's just one of these tanks should probably not have a mana bar if he or she likes blue pixels on their screen.

This is absurdly punitive to paladin tanks. You know the class that gets to start in unyielding sentinel, the tanking destiny, and only relevent prestige class is defender of siberys, a tanking prestige.

Raid design teams and class design teams should maybe have lunch together someday and introduce yourselves to each other.