THF: The way for most melees to go in the expansion?

[VorpalKnight]

So after checking a few destinies like the Dreadnought and the Fury of Wild, I'm really having trouble finding a reason for my non ranger or rogues to stay TWF if you have a good THF weapon like the ESoS, is there an actual reason for Fighters and Barbs to be TWF?

Lets start with the cleave feats:

Cleave +1[W] additional damage.
Great Cleave +2[W] additional damage.
Supreme Cleave 3 second cooldown, and deals +2[W] additional damage

They all favor greatly THF over a TWF that gets no benefits whatsoever over THF or even one handed fighting when cleaving since one handed cleave is so much faster than THF and TWF. If i have these abilities and even are encouraged to use them then I want them to be effective for my style of fighting as well.

For one feats like cleave and greatcleave, which most of us Barbs and Fighters will have do very pitiful damage with TWF compare to THF, because while THF doesn't get glancing blows while cleaving, it gets 1.5 str and 2x pa bonus, which are some of the main reasons to go THF.

TWF gets the shaft and doesn't get any chance whatsoever to proc offhand, meaning somehow that a character that trained for years mastering TWF, somehow just can't figure out how to cleave with two weapons, well either that or they accidentally carried their phantom weapon in their offhand as I can see my twf toon clearly attack with his offhand weapon. Actually the animation is so slow compared to Shield and Sword, that your TWF character is actually a worse cleaver than a TWF character.



Destiny Abilities, I am assuming here that when you perform an attack its only with your mainhand or else they would have bother to state in the description that your offhand can proc with these abilities, if so do point it out as i don't have access to the beta. Also note that the more damage while helpless benefits THF more as you can just use the +[W] damage abilities and cleaves with THF while they are helpless, same thing with Blitz, 2500% damage with a [W] attack that has much higher damage will favor THF.

Legendary dreadnought

Momentum swing (min level: 20 - Prereq: Cleave) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Active Cooldown: 1min) Perform an attack with +5[W] damage, +1 critical threat range and critical damage multiplier. Cleave attacks have 15% chance to reset the cooldown of this ability. You must have power attack active to perform this ability.

Lay waste (min level: 20 - Prereq: Cleave && momentum swing) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 1min) Perform an AoE attack with +5[W] damage. On hit: Knocks the target down, Blance DC (10 + character level + strength modifier) negates. Momentum swing has a 25% chance to reset the cooldown of this ability. You mush vae power attack active to perform this ability.

Combat brute (required 20): (Passive) You gain +1[W] damage with melee weapons and deal +50% to helpless opponents while any action boost is active

Master's blitz (min level: 20) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 5mins) The master's blitz counter increments each time a tactical feat is successfully used. When the counter reaches 50, you gain ability to use Master's Blitz. Activate: For 10 seconds, you gain +50% dodge and deal +25% melee damage. Any time you kill an opponent while under the effects of Master's blitz, you gain an additional stack of melee damage bonus and restart duration. If you are below 50% health when you first activate this ability, you start with 2 stacks of increased damage instead of 1. The damage bonus stack up to 100 times. You lose 1 stack every 15 seconds

Fury of the wild

All 4 Adrenaline abilities Adrenaline Overload (required 20): (Active Cooldown: 5secs) Gain +1 adrenaline use per rest. Consume 1 adrenaline your next attack deals +400% damage and increase your critical threat range by 16. You are considered raged until your next attack.

Sense Weakness (required 4 - Prereq: Acute instinct) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive). You deal [10/20/30]% extra damage to helpless targets. Your melee attacks deal [1d8/1d8/1d8] extra damage to enemies below 75% HP, [0/1d15/1d12] extra damage to enemies below 50% HP, and [0/0/1d20] extra damage to enemies below 25% HP. These are cumulative.

[Jasparion]

So after checking a few destinies like the Dreadnought and the Fury of Wild, I'm really having trouble finding a reason for my non ranger or rogues to stay TWF if you have a good THF weapon like the ESoS

I stopped reading right here.

If you have an ESoS you can use Div Power clickies and any class is probably better off sticking with swinging this

[Masadique]

I stopped reading right here.

If you have an ESoS you can use Div Power clickies and any class is probably better off sticking with swinging this

Pretty much. As a side note:

Sense Weakness (required 4 - Prereq: Acute instinct) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive). You deal [10/20/30]% extra damage to helpless targets. Your melee attacks deal [1d8/1d8/1d8] extra damage to enemies below 75% HP, [0/1d15/1d12] extra damage to enemies below 50% HP, and [0/0/1d20] extra damage to enemies below 25% HP. These are cumulative.

This is 1.8-2x as good on a TWF as it is on a THF. No matter what, you're getting more damage with these EDs. Just don't ask barbs what they are swinging for and you'll be ok.

V

[maddmatt70]

The LD has alot of aspects to it that benefit two weapon fighting more then two handed fighting. I concur on the Fury of the Wild but not on LD. Regarding the sword of shadows do you think that will still be the number one weapon two handed or otherwise after we get the new raid loot which is apparently 12 new weapons?

[Urjak]

combat brute and masters blitz affect THF and TWF equaly

sense weakness is better for TWF

[maddmatt70]

Pretty much. As a side note:

Sense Weakness (required 4 - Prereq: Acute instinct) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive). You deal [10/20/30]% extra damage to helpless targets. Your melee attacks deal [1d8/1d8/1d8] extra damage to enemies below 75% HP, [0/1d15/1d12] extra damage to enemies below 50% HP, and [0/0/1d20] extra damage to enemies below 25% HP. These are cumulative.

This is 1.8-2x as good on a TWF as it is on a THF. No matter what, you're getting more damage with these EDs. Just don't ask barbs what they are swinging for and you'll be ok.

V

I was trying to get this through Shade's thick skull just how powerful this is on a target like the Epic Lord of Blades. I mean it rocks

[Masadique]

I was trying to get this through Shade's thick skull just how powerful this is on a target like the Epic Lord of Blades. I mean it rocks

Yup, I want it on my monk. Raw damage on the fastest attack speed in the game? Yeah, I could do that. Mind you fastest when I get twist into LD for haste.

V

[WruntJunior]

I was trying to get this through Shade's thick skull just how powerful this is on a target like the Epic Lord of Blades. I mean it rocks

If I can twist that it, I'd want that ability for EVERY character that melees...an ability that lets you take down a boss faster as their health gets lower? Yes please. May not be a full-time use of a twist slot, but if I'm going into a raid...I can definitely imagine using it.

On topic, the way I see it is that THF vs TWF after the update (barring some new super-weapon of either type that screws the balance) will be much the same as it is now: close enough that preference is much more important than which would kill a boss in .02 seconds faster. This remains to be extensively tested through practice and spreadsheet by other people (as I can't test it myself...my best melee is a TWF, and my best THF is a FvS...so not good for comparison), but I haven't seen anything that favors either too much yet.

[nivarch]

I was trying to get this through Shade's thick skull just how powerful this is on a target like the Epic Lord of Blades. I mean it rocks

Yes that's a +21,5 per hit below 25% health... Thats just amazing.
Especially considering LoB for example gets harder the lower his HP.

The increase to helpless damage is a nice additional bonus.

[VorpalKnight]

combat brute and masters blitz affect THF and TWF equaly

sense weakness is better for TWF

If you cleave someone or use an ability that does X[W] while on 2500% damage from Master Blits(yes, I know we wont reach 2500 but its just an example) or getting 50%/30% more damage while the target is helpless, the weapon that does the most damage in a single swing, will get the most benefits from this.


And yes that stacking damage on senses weakness is very nice for TWF, aren't we glad rangers didn't get a Prestige? Was pointing out the % effect is better for THF in combinations with cleaves and abilities, but you guys are right, that stacking damage it better for TWF. Almost everything else is not, and no in D&D not all barbarians are THF, you guys never seen of a berzerker dual wielding axes?

And what really benefits TWF more than THF enough in LD?

Action boost: attack: I guess since most TWF have less to hit, but who will really use this?

Haste boost: So TWF Barb's(that spent a feat on Khopeshes) can keep up with ESoS THF Barbs in single target dps.

Advancing blows? cool but ESoS has 30% and my Khopesh 20% to crit, not really favoring TWF that much at all, even worse if not khopesh.

Critical damage, same as above


But is that enough to have most LD abilities(and ED); a lot that my THF will regularly use to great effect but not my TWF, favor THF over TWF?

Arguably LD should be the most balanced ED for THF and TWF dps styles but it isn't so far.

Also on Fury of the Wild, I didn't see anyone point this out but TWF gain adrenaline faster, but so what? Still a horrible TWF ED with only a few things worth twisting on, and this is supposed to be the Tempests ED lol?

[Boromirs]

At this point, if you somehow manage to get to tier 6 on legendary dreadnought then a greataxe would be the absolute best weapon for you, since effectively it turns any greataxe into x4 crit. Insane.

[VorpalKnight]

At this point, if you somehow manage to get to tier 6 on legendary dreadnought then a greataxe would be the absolute best weapon for you, since effectively it turns any greataxe into x4 crit. Insane.

I guess if we could keep Epic Oath of Droaam I can see an Axe outdps ESoS, otherwise 30%3x will badly beat 10% 4x.

If we don't get a strong axe like that my barbarian will knock on turbines headquarters door and have a little word with a few people...

[Ovrad]

At this point, if you somehow manage to get to tier 6 on legendary dreadnought then a greataxe would be the absolute best weapon for you, since effectively it turns any greataxe into x4 crit. Insane.

x4? Greataxes already have a x3 multiplier.

Tier Five: Devastating critical (min level: 20) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Passive) +1 critical damage mulitplier on rolls of 19-20

Tier Six: Headman's chop (min level: 20 - Prereq: Devastating critical 1)(1 rank - 2 AP): (Passive) When you have an axe equipped in your main hand, you gain an additional +1 Critical Damage Multiplier on rolls of 19-20.

That's x5 Crits on Greataxes.

[oweieie]

Sense Weakness (required 4 - Prereq: Acute instinct) (3 ranks - 1 AP): (Passive). You deal [10/20/30]% extra damage to helpless targets.

A helpless target is already effectively dead as you should already have good enough DPS to kill it before it becomes unhelpless. This is nice, but not really much of a boost.

Your melee attacks deal [1d8/1d8/1d8] extra damage to enemies below 75% HP, [0/1d15/1d12] extra damage to enemies below 50% HP, and [0/0/1d20] extra damage to enemies below 25% HP. These are cumulative.

(0 + 4.5 + 11 + 21.5) / 4 ~= 9 average extra damage from 100% to 0%. Actually less since the last 25 % should be fastest and the first 25% slowest. Nice, not spectacular. It's about lit II damage.

[VorpalKnight]

The LD has alot of aspects to it that benefit two weapon fighting more then two handed fighting. I concur on the Fury of the Wild but not on LD. Regarding the sword of shadows do you think that will still be the number one weapon two handed or otherwise after we get the new raid loot which is apparently 12 new weapons?

Well I think we will eventually get something that beats the ESoS for THF, that much is obvious. However I am curious on how will it beat it, as long as its damage and not boring procs I can see it replacing it, unless it procs a lot more often than 5% and it actually is a strong proc, and please no more procs that a lot of mobs are immune to like greater incineration. This goes for TWF as well, I like lit2, Greater Inc and I hate Crushing Wave and Corrosive salt dots as much as anyone else but **** can I just have a weapon that has nice damage effects and don't have to rely on random proc? I always preferred pure damage instead of procs vs trash which is what most of my time is spent fighting.

Also not sure on ease to acquire, to be honest it is unfair that TWF can you grind nice pair of Epic Khopesh in a week and to get THF's only competitive weapons it takes months, that's just horrible balancing and whoever let having such a huge gap for so long between TWF and THF should have been fired a long long time ago.

They should have introduced something closer to the ESoS ages ago, I suggested Upgrading the Hellstroke Axe to 10% base crit with vorpal a while ago but it just got ignored and its still a useless weapon that a 15 minute Challenge Axe beats.

[FranOhmsford]

No mention of Sword and Board?

Is it still going to be the 5th Wheel?

Is it going to be better or worse than it is now? comparatively to TWF/THF

[krogyy]

(0 + 4.5 + 11 + 21.5) / 4 ~= 9

i think it should be:

4.5*0.75 + 11*0.5 + 21.5*0.25 = 14.5

besides, i can agree that fury benefits TWF over THF in some ways (and the opposite in others) but i don't see much in LD that is better for TWF. at least not enough that makes me look forward to play my twf fighter.

[Ertay]

i think it should be:

4.5*0.75 + 11*0.5 + 21.5*0.25 = 14.5

Nope, as this does not factor in the first 1.00-0.75 that don't get any boost. oweieie got it right already.

[Boromirs]

I guess if we could keep Epic Oath of Droaam I can see an Axe outdps ESoS, otherwise 30%3x will badly beat 10% 4x.

If we don't get a strong axe like that my barbarian will knock on turbines headquarters door and have a little word with a few people...

No, it's not it's x5 crit for 19-20. How it turns out is, x3 30% and x4 10% vs. x5 10%, an Epic Antique would beat the eSoS. Further abilities like Anvil of thunder are axe/blunt only, swords are not included... probably a way to balance out the eSoS.