60+ dc

[Stillwaters]

Maybe i should clarify my above statement..

I dont deny that using short term buffs and expensive pots should not really be considered in a base DC.

However it was the tone that was coming across in those comments, that you cannot use them at ALL in a comparison because not everyone has them.

Shades "max DC" has JUST as much basis as the "basic" DC on a thread talking about 60+DC

Sure not everyone can reach it, and certainly cannot sustain it, but that max is what separates the Elite gamer from the pack.

I could run down what DC i think a CASUAL gamer would have out of that gear and come up with a FAR smaller number than 50+.
Guess what? Its OK to have a gap between the haves and the have-nots, otherwise the have-nots have nothing to strive for. If they were just given it all for free, then you not only cheapen the value for those that worked hard for it, they cheapen their own value in the process.


Have-not's victories in the AC/Tohit debate have cost this game greatly, now having a ok AC is not something you have to work for
its handed to you,
same as the chance to hit,
and the diminishing returns means they will NEVER get to have what the strivers and elitists had in the past... NEVER!
Think about it, they just cost themselves a possibility of being great themselves by forcing every "tall-poppy" to be cut.
They will never know the sense of achievement felt by those that earned it in the past.

So be careful and don't let this happen to spell DCs and Saves as well.

[CaptGrim]

Im not really interested in max DC. But more interested in mob fort saves.

Shade's maxidy max DC short term calqs will only be useful on the most decked out EE orange name*, where it will be overkill almost all other times. I would really be interested to see caster, cleric, and warrior fort saves to know how much min max is nessesary to be proficiant with necromancy. It may be that any DC 55+ is 95% with the new content. We need some Mr. Cow up in here to drop some maths.

* not sure if this is possible now that epics are no longer epic

[oweieie]

Rest is all enhancement + inherit + ed etc... +3 tome would be common and +4 normal for a powergamer.

I could have been offering 100 flawless reds and 100 epic scrolls for +4 int tomes every single raid and it wouldn't have mattered. One has never dropped in the raid I'm running my arcane in, and I've never had any come up for any of my toons on the many 20-completion-lists for ToD. +4 isn't by any stretch of the imagination normal for a power gamer, +4 is you're a lucky son of a *****. You can't power game it and get it, you are just plain lucky.

[Stillwaters]

Shade's maxidy max DC short term calqs will only be useful on the most decked out EE orange name*, where it will be overkill almost all other times.

Lots of spells have saves, not all of that calc was on "necro" DC, most can be used for ref saves on spells you nuke a redname/purplename with.

[Emili]

I could have been offering 100 flawless reds and 100 epic scrolls for +4 int tomes every single raid and it wouldn't have mattered. One has never dropped in the raid I'm running my arcane in, and I've never had any come up for any of my toons on the many 20-completion-lists for ToD. +4 isn't by any stretch of the imagination normal for a power gamer, +4 is you're a lucky son of a *****. You can't power game it and get it, you are just plain lucky.

I should not tell ya, but my characters had eaten +4's before TR'ing was possible and I put off TR'ing any until gained back some replacements for them. Basicaly wasted seven I suppose.

O' course now day's we do not have to worry 'bout those things.

... am a lucky one so told.

[Alavatar]

I am bringing this topic back up to the top because I am going to point out that through a recent review of the Epic Destinies I believe a more reasonable expectation is a sustainable DC53 for a reasonably geared character:

• Magister Epic Destiny abilities are very attractive. So much so that I believe most will not take all 6 of the +INT abilities.
  
  • I am looking at you, School Mastery.
• Twists of Fate also provide some very attractive abilities so it is unreasonable to expect a Wizard/Sorcerer to have Twisted in nothing by +INT/CHA.

[Chai]

The top elite player can get the vast majority of that?

You mean the unemployed player who doesnt go outside or turn off their computer? Or the lucky player that didnt have to wait 80 completions of a raid to get the one item they wanted out of it?

I dont support balancing to the maximum. I support balancing to what is expected and sustainable.

Also what has to be determined is all of the OTHER abilities that target the same saves. EiN for instance, or Consume. Stunning blow/fist etc. None of these should become obsolete simply because someone else can min max a much higher DC in something completely different that attacks the same save.

[Ertay]

[LIST][*]Magister Epic Destiny abilities are very attractive. So much so that I believe most will not take all 6 of the +INT abilities.

• I am looking at you, School Mastery.
  

Seriously? I mean you should absolutely pick spell school specialist, but other then that what is there? When I looked through them, I found absolutely nothing but spell school specialist, +int and spell pen that would even remotely be worthwile by itself, much less would I be willing to sacrifice int for some of that stuff... 15% chance for a fort debuff is garbage, you can literally throw hundreds of sp worth of spells at something without getting a proc when you need it, spell school mastery could be decent but requires so incredibly many points in prereqs, the others are either to weak or too high up and require massive investment in even weaker abilities.

[Alavatar]

Seriously? I mean you should absolutely pick spell school specialist, but other then that what is there? When I looked through them, I found absolutely nothing but spell school specialist, +int and spell pen that would even remotely be worthwile by itself, much less would I be willing to sacrifice int for some of that stuff... 15% chance for a fort debuff is garbage, you can literally throw hundreds of sp worth of spells at something without getting a proc when you need it, spell school mastery could be decent but requires so incredibly many points in prereqs, the others are either to weak or too high up and require massive investment in even weaker abilities.

You do realize that the Archmage SLA and the Pale Master Necrotic Touch/Bolt/Blast can proc the fort debuff? You don't need to spend that much in the way of SP to get the fort debuff.

Not to mention you can also put down a Symbol of Death and run creatures through it for a chance to proc the debuff every time.

[Faent]

You do realize that the Archmage SLA and the Pale Master Necrotic Touch/Bolt/Blast can proc the fort debuff? You don't need to spend that much in the way of SP to get the fort debuff.

You do realize that the Archmage SLA is on a six second cooldown, right?

[Alavatar]

You do realize that the Archmage SLA is on a six second cooldown, right?

And that an Archmage can have up to 5 of them? For Necromancy, one of which is Enervation and another is Waves of Fatigue (AoE)?

Not to mention all of the other debuff AoE effects in the Necromancy school (if a Necromancer Archmage does not take the SLA) can be used to great effect. Namely:

• Waves of Fatigue
• Waves of Exhaustion
• Symbol of Pain
• Symbol of Weakness
• Symbol of Death
• Circle of Death
• Negative Energy Burst

A great strategy for using the debuff ability from Magister is to lay down a Symbol of Pain (useable on Undead and bosses) or a Symbol of Death, kite through it a couple of times, then use a Circle of Death / Wail of the Banshee combo. Or, for archers that don't move, lay the Symbol of Pain on top of them; since it is a Fort save and archers don't really have that great of Fort saves it will likely take hold which lowers their saves by -4 at the least and -9 if you get the debuff proc.

[Syllph]

I agree that Epic elite should be for the elite and few should be comfortable in it. Read: comfortable. It should be grueling to most even the well geared.

I don't think by any means that temporary buffs like those mentioned should be factored into this challenge: they should take the elite player into a temporary easy mode while active. Maybe 3 people on my server have enough cookies and house D pots to last a long quest. It would be absurd to redesign a quest with these in mind, they should make it easier not be a necessity.

I would be ok with the toughest raid on epic elite having super high DCs nearly impossible for those without specialized gear and past lives, but the average quest on epic elite should not require a 65+ DC: that's just silly.

[WruntJunior]

I agree that Epic elite should be for the elite and few should be comfortable in it. Read: comfortable. It should be grueling to most even the well geared.

I don't think by any means that temporary buffs like those mentioned should be factored into this challenge: they should take the elite player into a temporary easy mode while active. Maybe 3 people on my server have enough cookies and house D pots to last a long quest. It would be absurd to redesign a quest with these in mind, they should make it easier not be a necessity.

I would be ok with the toughest raid on epic elite having super high DCs nearly impossible for those without specialized gear and past lives, but the average quest on epic elite should not require a 65+ DC: that's just silly.

The thing you have to remember about super-high DCs for a pale-master...other classes can't get their DCs for abilities that require fort saves that high for 95% of the stuff without generally otherwise gimping their character. Content has to be designed with the fact that you shouldn't gimp otherwise perfectly viable abilities due to ridiculously high DC requirements.

[CodyGenX]

I'm not using this for any arguement towards nerfing casters.

I did use it once towards BUFFING epic elite monster saves. A very positive use of this data imo.

Umm so In turn you'd also want Monks, Assassins, and Tactic Fighters nerfed? Leaving Barbs. Yeah that does sound like something you'd like, and don't comeback with some stuff about "I've never said to nerf anything". You just said to BUFF epic elite.