bards in u14

[legendlore]

bards are arguably one of the least played classes in the game, you would think that the developers would seek to adjust this by making it an more attractive class for the general population.

So lets see what u14 brings for bards.


Party buffing
¤An fully buffed Inspire courage song (20 levels, 18 ap) now adds +7% to hit, due to rounding off it is likely to add 5% in most cases and in some cases no to-hit bonus at all.

Previously an fully buffed Inspire courage added 35% to-hit. A level 20 bard now adds as much to hit to the party as an level 1 bard on live servers.

¤Displacement is now a self buff only (continued in healing section).


Healing
¤The change to spell power means that bards no longer have an advantage of low level spell boosters for their spells, all spell power boosts spells the same regardless of spell level. Widening the gap further between l 9 casters and l 6 casters.

¤Gear setup, like many other classes bards will now have to wear an designated gear slot for devotion if they want to be able to contribute as a healer.

¤Changes to how meta magic works means that bards built and geared for healing will now have even weaker healing capability. Bards never had the luxury of over healing with spells such as heal and mass heal and are hit hard by this.

¤Displacement now being self only is a huge nerf to bard healers, I don't think many (developers) realize how bard healers function, it was an elaborate dance of CC, damage mitigation (displacement) and healing to make up for the weaker healing compared to divines of similar level. Really fun to play but now sadly likely to be a thing of the past.


Spellcasting
¤Greater shout arguably one of the worst damage spells in the game (but the best bards had) is now even weaker due to spell power and meta magic changes.

¤In u13 bards weren't included in the ship buffs change to Pharlian inspiration, making them fall another DC behind wizards and sorcerers for CC spells.


Melee/ranged
¤Bards only way to deal reliant damage currently in ddo is as a melee or ranged build. The changes to the to-hit system will make their damage output even more mediocre. While bards were a middle of the road BAB class they easily made up for it by always having their buffs at hand. In the new system bards are likely to hit the enemies less than before and have a lower damage output (like most melee/ranged classes).


(edit; )
Itemization
¤When making the current commendation sets in the expansion it yet again seems that the developers forgot about bards. AA bards can make some use of the Druid set and an upgraded Spidersilk robe can make War wizards usable for caster built bards. But neither can be considered bard sets and most bards (non Warchanters) are shut out of the primary melee set (Purple Dragon Knights).
(end edit)


(edit 2; )
Miscellaneous
¤Bardic Knowledge is finally getting implemented, Bards now get half ranks in Divine lore and Wilderness lore in addition to their full ranks in Arcane lore.
(end edit 2)


Conclusion
All of this makes me wonder what if anything are the developers thinking bards should be good or viable at? The recent and upcoming changes is giving bards massive nerfs in all the departments they earlier could specialize and at least be viable in.

I know there's an enhancements pass coming in November (earliest). But all of these changes seems to be made with no consideration at all for what is arguably one of the weakest classes in the game.

Has it really come to a point that when developers make new game wide decisions they even forget that the bard class exists? Sadly it seems so

[DeafeningWhisper]

bards are arguably one of the least played classes in the game, you would think that the developers would seek to adjust this by making it an more attractive class for the general population.

So lets see what u14 brings for bards.


Party buffing
¤An fully buffed Inspire courage song (20 levels, 18 ap) now adds +7% to hit, due to rounding off it is likely to add 5% in most cases and in some cases no to-hit bonus at all.

Previously an fully buffed Inspire courage added 35% to-hit. A level 20 bard now adds as much to hit to the party as an level 1 bard on live servers.

¤Displacement is now a self buff only (continued in healing section).


Healing
¤The change to spell power means that bards no longer have an advantage of low level spell boosters for their spells, all spell power boosts spells the same regardless of spell level. Widening the gap further between l 9 casters and l 6 casters.

¤Gear setup, like many other classes bards will now have to wear an designated gear slot for devotion if they want to be able to contribute as a healer.

¤Changes to how meta magic works means that bards built and geared for healing will now have even weaker healing capability. Bards never had the luxury of over healing with spells such as heal and mass heal and are hit hard by this.

¤Displacement now being self only is a huge nerf to bard healers, I don't think many (developers) realize how bard healers function, it was an elaborate dance of CC, damage mitigation (displacement) and healing to make up for the weaker healing compared to divines of similar level. Really fun to play but now sadly likely to be a thing of the past.


Spellcasting
¤Greater shout arguably one of the worst damage spells in the game (but the best bards had) is now even weaker due to spell power and meta magic changes.

¤In u13 bards weren't included in the ship buffs change to Pharlian inspiration, making them fall another DC behind wizards and sorcerers for CC spells.


Melee/ranged
¤Bards only way to deal reliant damage currently in ddo is as a melee or ranged build. The changes to the to-hit system will make their damage output even more mediocre. While bards were a middle of the road BAB class they easily made up for it by always having their buffs at hand. In the new system bards are likely to hit the enemies less than before and have a lower damage output (like most melee/ranged classes).


Conclusion
All of this makes me wonder what if anything are the developers thinking bards should be good or viable at? The resent and upcoming changes is giving bards massive nerfs in all the departments they earlier could specialize and at least be viable in.

I know there's an enhancements pass coming in November (earliest). But all of these changes seems to be made with no consideration at all for what is arguably one of the weakest classes in the game.

Has it really come to a point that when developers make new game wide decisions they even forget that the bard class exists? Sadly it seems so

So few of us play bards that, well no one cares it seems. Heck I made mine a bardcher because other then songs bards have a license to pike, no one takes a bard seriously not even the devs it seems. Even the Fatesinger destiny is a buff-bot line...

[Shade]

Party buffing
¤An fully buffed Inspire courage song (20 levels, 18 ap) now adds +7% to hit, due to rounding off it is likely to add 5% in most cases and in some cases no to-hit bonus at all.

Unlikely to go live like this.

Healing
¤The change to spell power means that bards no longer have an advantage of low level spell boosters for their spells, all spell power boosts spells the same regardless of spell level. Widening the gap further between l 9 casters and l 6 casters.

um no. It's equalises the gap, not widens. This is logic.

¤Gear setup, like many other classes bards will now have to wear an designated gear slot for devotion if they want to be able to contribute as a healer.

And before they did what? a potentcy item. No difference other then gear will be more varied and fun to work out.

¤Changes to how meta magic works means that bards built and geared for healing will now have even weaker healing capability. Bards never had the luxury of over healing with spells such as heal and mass heal and are hit hard by this.

INCORRECT. Overall healing power is going up for ALL classes. Theres a ton of threads on this, go read the math. Only case where it goes down is the absolutely most unlikely fringe case of an bard with max/emp and empower healign all active, and eardweller, and even in that most unlikely of cases, it can still go up after some epic lvls.

Bards will remain a very powerful and important class to take along in any group. They are getting some incredibly awesome epic songs via feats and enhancements that will make them only more so.

[azrael4h]

You forgot the tripled cooldown on spells that the majority of Bards will find themselves saddled with, as the majority seem to be Warchanters running PA. For THF, this is a huge hit on their melee dps.

Oh well, no more Bards, Paladins, or Rangers allowed.

And no, being Shades buff-bot slave is not making them viable to play. It makes them so that other people want someone else to play one.

[Cyr]

And before they did what? a potentcy item. No difference other then gear will be more varied and fun to work out.

Yeah, no.

There is very little that a bard uses that makes much use of damage boosts besides healing. It's called a clickie. It added more in benefit and didn't use up a gear slot.

The situation now is different and is a nerf to bards, particularly warchanters who don't want their hands taken up by spell power items.

[ShotByBothSides]

Due to a busy schedule I have not had a chance to play on Lamannia this time round.

I have loved playing various flavours of bards since DDO started 6 years ago; if the OP is correct and there are no benefits added for bards to counter these changes, then the popular (in groups) bard looks to be relegated to extinction.

I do hope the OP is wrong. But if this is what we can look forward to for bards, then DDO will be the looser. Turbine must have lost the plot, for it requires little thought to see the impact that these changes would have on this support class.

Edit: Darn it, the phone caught me before I hit post and others are suggesting that all is not perhaps doom and gloom. Good to hear this.

[orakio]

You forgot the tripled cooldown on spells that the majority of Bards will find themselves saddled with, as the majority seem to be Warchanters running PA. For THF, this is a huge hit on their melee dps.

Oh well, no more Bards, Paladins, or Rangers allowed.

And no, being Shades buff-bot slave is not making them viable to play. It makes them so that other people want someone else to play one.

Again misinformation on these boards. Please confirm something before you post it.

Power Attack DOES NOT INCREASE THE COOLDOWN ON SPELLS. Only the defensive stances increase the cooldown of spells now. Any cooldown increase caused by power attack is a bug and not intended.

The only one of the 3 you mentioned that is likely to run into this problem would be tank paladins running combat expertise... a feat that is hard to fit anyway due to the MAD nature of the class and its needs in the feat department.

That isn't to say that bards/paladins/rangers still aren't a little underwhelming at times but it isn't due to power attack or to the spellpower changes, but rather because they aren't properly tuned in the PrE or enhancement department. These were the first 3 classes to receive PrE's and their PrE's and enhancements are outdated compared to many of the newer ones and new classes.

[legendlore]

Unlikely to go live like this.

Time will tell

um no. It's equalises the gap, not widens. This is logic.

Widens the power gap. Before a l 6 caster could easily use superior 6 items to get a greater boost (75%) while l 9 spells were lucky to get 50% boosted (Eardweller excluded). Hence the power gap widens.

And before they did what? a potentcy item. No difference other then gear will be more varied and fun to work out.

No they didn't wear potency, they used ardor/cacophony clickies and potions that's the point.

INCORRECT. Overall healing power is going up for ALL classes. Theres a ton of threads on this, go read the math. Only case where it goes down is the absolutely most unlikely fringe case of an bard with max/emp and empower healign all active, and eardweller, and even in that most unlikely of cases, it can still go up after some epic lvls.

Hence CORRECT for the example given, mind there were actually bards built for healing, rare sure, but they were there using Eardweller and every feat they could muster.

Bards will remain a very powerful and important class to take along in any group. They are getting some incredibly awesome epic songs via feats and enhancements that will make them only more so.

while the new feat is nice the overall power of the bard class has gone down and it's build options have been limited

[maddmatt70]

bards are arguably one of the least played classes in the game, you would think that the developers would seek to adjust this by making it an more attractive class for the general population.

So lets see what u14 brings for bards.


Party buffing
¤An fully buffed Inspire courage song (20 levels, 18 ap) now adds +7% to hit, due to rounding off it is likely to add 5% in most cases and in some cases no to-hit bonus at all.

Previously an fully buffed Inspire courage added 35% to-hit. A level 20 bard now adds as much to hit to the party as an level 1 bard on live servers.

¤Displacement is now a self buff only (continued in healing section).


Healing
¤The change to spell power means that bards no longer have an advantage of low level spell boosters for their spells, all spell power boosts spells the same regardless of spell level. Widening the gap further between l 9 casters and l 6 casters.

¤Gear setup, like many other classes bards will now have to wear an designated gear slot for devotion if they want to be able to contribute as a healer.

¤Changes to how meta magic works means that bards built and geared for healing will now have even weaker healing capability. Bards never had the luxury of over healing with spells such as heal and mass heal and are hit hard by this.

¤Displacement now being self only is a huge nerf to bard healers, I don't think many (developers) realize how bard healers function, it was an elaborate dance of CC, damage mitigation (displacement) and healing to make up for the weaker healing compared to divines of similar level. Really fun to play but now sadly likely to be a thing of the past.


Spellcasting
¤Greater shout arguably one of the worst damage spells in the game (but the best bards had) is now even weaker due to spell power and meta magic changes.

¤In u13 bards weren't included in the ship buffs change to Pharlian inspiration, making them fall another DC behind wizards and sorcerers for CC spells.


Melee/ranged
¤Bards only way to deal reliant damage currently in ddo is as a melee or ranged build. The changes to the to-hit system will make their damage output even more mediocre. While bards were a middle of the road BAB class they easily made up for it by always having their buffs at hand. In the new system bards are likely to hit the enemies less than before and have a lower damage output (like most melee/ranged classes).


Conclusion
All of this makes me wonder what if anything are the developers thinking bards should be good or viable at? The resent and upcoming changes is giving bards massive nerfs in all the departments they earlier could specialize and at least be viable in.

I know there's an enhancements pass coming in November (earliest). But all of these changes seems to be made with no consideration at all for what is arguably one of the weakest classes in the game.

Has it really come to a point that when developers make new game wide decisions they even forget that the bard class exists? Sadly it seems so

I am not sure if I quite agree with your bard healing comments other then displacement is a big nerf to bards. The songs relative nerf is also pretty big nerf the best song bards have is inspire recklessness on warchanters really because it is 5% doublestrike whereas inspire courage is a static number.

The spell pass was a huge disappointment to bards as that was the perfect time for the devs to address bard spell dps with a buff to greater shout and the addition of a sonic dot, but the devs totally neglected bards which really shows us just how much they care about bards.

The reality is a level 20 fighter or level 20 wizard or level 20 FVS that takes the fatesinger destiny adds more to a party then a level 20 bard with whatever destiny they choose. The only exception to this is raids perhaps but even that is in doubt. It will be fun enjoying the nice bard destinies, but the longer the current state of the game goes on the more people will realize that a 20 wizard, a 20 fighter, a 20 FVS all of which with the fatesinger destiny are better then bards and bards will eventually disappear from the game.

[azrael4h]

Again misinformation on these boards. Please confirm something before you post it.

Power Attack DOES NOT INCREASE THE COOLDOWN ON SPELLS. Only the defensive stances increase the cooldown of spells now. Any cooldown increase caused by power attack is a bug and not intended.

The only one of the 3 you mentioned that is likely to run into this problem would be tank paladins running combat expertise... a feat that is hard to fit anyway due to the MAD nature of the class and its needs in the feat department.

That isn't to say that bards/paladins/rangers still aren't a little underwhelming at times but it isn't due to power attack or to the spellpower changes, but rather because they aren't properly tuned in the PrE or enhancement department. These were the first 3 classes to receive PrE's and their PrE's and enhancements are outdated compared to many of the newer ones and new classes.

Last time I checked it did add a 3x cooldown, and was in the original closed beta release notes as doing so. I may have missed the change, however, if it was reverted.

[BruceTheHoon]

You forgot the tripled cooldown on spells that the majority of Bards will find themselves saddled with, as the majority seem to be Warchanters running PA. For THF, this is a huge hit on their melee dps.

Oh well, no more Bards, Paladins, or Rangers allowed.

And no, being Shades buff-bot slave is not making them viable to play. It makes them so that other people want someone else to play one.

This is a bug.

[orakio]

Last time I checked it did add a 3x cooldown, and was in the original closed beta release notes as doing so. I may have missed the change, however, if it was reverted.

It was NEVER in the notes to add 3x the cooldown, and on the closed beta forums during beta1 there was an uproar over the fact that it was doing so but not listed. Developers came out and stated that was not WAI and that power attack was never intended to have increased cooldown.

It hasn't added increased cooldown since the bug was fixed in closed beta2, nor does it do it on open beta now.

[maddmatt70]

Bards will remain a very powerful and important class to take along in any group. They are getting some incredibly awesome epic songs via feats and enhancements that will make them only more so.

Really why would not I or someone else who likes buffing just make a level 25 barbarian with the fatesinger destiny. It quite obviously adds more to a 6 person group then a level 25 bard with the fatesinger destiny.

[orakio]

Really why would not I or someone else who likes buffing just make a level 25 barbarian with the fatesinger destiny. It quite obviously adds more to a 6 person group then a level 25 bard with the fatesinger destiny.

That 25th level barbarian cannot inherently provide haste/rage/blur, cannot heal the group or cc groups of mobs, and has far less(although a decent number if invested correctly) songs to work with. It is missing a large chunk of the hit/damage provided by inspire courage, as these are not increased by fatesinger directly.

Does that barbarian do more dps than the bard? almost certainly. Does it provide everything that a full bard (with eventually fully finished PrE in U16?) does... absolutely not. Even if the barb had enough umd to scroll heal succesfully, they lack the improved wand and scroll mastery enhancements that allow bards to be truly effective at it.

If I had to choose between the two for a party I would take the bard over the barbarian every time, as I know in the long run the bard is far more likely to have the tools to fulfill the role that I am seeking out of that type of slot in a party.

And this is coming from somebody that intends to go fatesinger on an artificer, and I still know that I wouldn't be able to fully replace the benefits that a bard provides in a larger party environment despite my ability to cover the scroll healing and UMD and many of the other buffs.

[taurean430]

Something I took notice of happened recently in our guild static group. One of our players was expressing discontent that the spare hand belt, a popular item, holds the same bonus type as my warchanter's song. They do not stack. 3% to 5% more or less. Not 3% to 8%.

Adding to that the need to use clickys and potentially an eardweller, and there is a problem. If the numbers posted earlier in this thread hold up, there is far less incentive to bring a bard along.

I have A Spellsinger and a Warchanter. Seems pretty safe to say that their reasons to be included in groups have diminished. Exponentially so since just about anyone can twist their epic abilities.

[Dingleburr]

Unlikely to go live like this.

Unless, of course, the devs don't notice and nobody points it out. Or they do notice and decide it's not a priority because nobody is complaining about it. Or they just don't have time in their schedule to fix it before the release date. I'd estimate the odds of it going live at 'pretty darn good'.

And before they did what? a potentcy item. No difference other then gear will be more varied and fun to work out.

You seem to be confused on this point.
Superior Ardor VI clicky <-- does not apply to MCSW, MCCW, or Mass Heal. Also note that clerics and FVS have access to these spells but bards do not.

INCORRECT. Overall healing power is going up for ALL classes. Theres a ton of threads on this, go read the math. Only case where it goes down is the absolutely most unlikely fringe case of an bard with max/emp and empower healign all active, and eardweller, and even in that most unlikely of cases, it can still go up after some epic lvls.

Party health and incoming damage are also going up. Bards are still stuck healing with MCLW/MCMW, while MCSW/MCCW just got a huge boost in effectiveness.

[DeafeningWhisper]

This is probably the best place to ask, how important is Inspire Excellence going to be?

My bardcher is going Shiradi Champion with 12 bard / 6 ranger / 2 rogue

I would have to go 16 bard / 2 ftr / 2 ranger to qualify for Excellence and lose quite a bit of survivability/dps and versatility to get that one song...

[morticianjohn]

bards are arguably one of the least played classes in the game, you would think that the developers would seek to adjust this by making it an more attractive class for the general population.

I read a bit on the rest of the post but I think that this line is where you've made an incorrect assumption.

Less played = less popular

therefore fewer players are interested so there is less money in making this an interesting class.

[legendlore]

The reality is a level 20 fighter or level 20 wizard or level 20 FVS that takes the fatesinger destiny adds more to a party then a level 20 bard with whatever destiny they choose. The only exception to this is raids perhaps but even that is in doubt. It will be fun enjoying the nice bard destinies, but the longer the current state of the game goes on the more people will realize that a 20 wizard, a 20 fighter, a 20 FVS all of which with the fatesinger destiny are better then bards and bards will eventually disappear from the game.

Agree, currently I feel a 20 Wizard 5 Fatesinger is more of an Spellsinger than Spellsingers themselves. Bards need more spell options to be viable casters.


Also forgot in the OP

Itemization
When making the current commendation sets in the expansion it yet again seems that the developers forgot about bards. AA bards can make some use of the Druid set and an upgraded Spidersilk robe can make War wizards usable. But neither can be considered bard sets.

[Dingleburr]

I read a bit on the rest of the post but I think that this line is where you've made an incorrect assumption.

Less played = less popular

therefore fewer players are interested so there is less money in making this an interesting class.

Players (especially the powergamer type) tend to gravitate towards the more powerful classes. If bards were more powerful, more folks would play the class. I've noticed that a lot of folks tend to play bards as alts and dust them off primarily to round out raid groups and whatnot.

Maybe that's just another way of saying the same thing you said.