All the "New" Dragons. They need fixed.

[J1NG]

OMG I've been moving out of the way for nothing. Thats hilarious. Never bothered to test them, been ingrained in me to dodge the burning rocks mobs toss. LOL.

You weren't the only one. I dodged quick time on seeing them the first time. Went for a quick afk at one time (much later on) and only realized then when they didn't do damage that they were cosmetic only.

J1NG

[Eladiun]

You weren't the only one. I dodged quick time on seeing them the first time. Went for a quick afk at one time (much later on) and only realized then when they didn't do damage that they were cosmetic only.

J1NG

I'm not 100% sure if they are cosmetic or if they are bugged but either way as of right now they do no damage.

[J1NG]

I'm not 100% sure if they are cosmetic or if they are bugged but either way as of right now they do no damage.

True.

But for now, I treat them as cosmetic only. Although I too am in the same boat as you are, and weary that one day, after some update or patch, they will start doing damage and wipe a good portion of a party unsuspectingly.

J1NG

[Keybreaker]

The dragons are jokes on epic elite. Difficulty has nothing to do with it. It's simply not fun to get screwed over in an unfair way simply because of the class I play doesn't fight at ranged. Melee aren't meant to suck versus dragons, they dont in pnp, they shouldnt here.

I've only been hit with Shock and Awe once per battle with the new dragons at the start of the battles.

Um no, you got hit a million times with it.

Still Sounds too easy for Shade.... therefore, the whole game must change....

We should probably buff all dragons.

If you were able to solo them, totally sounds like they need a buff.

a MILLION times! a MILLION!!!

I agree with Shade. Obviously new epic dragons should be buffed in a way that makes them MELEE only! 10,000DR vs all elements + light (pesky DOTs) and immunity to negative energy and disintegrate. 10,000DR vs piercing and bludgeoning (no arrows! no silver bows/slingers! what part of MUST be MELEE'd don't you get?).

The only way to have fun is for my class, and my class only, to be the most powerful class - the most necessary class. No tactics. No other class or epic destiny abilities should matter. I should be able to charge in and spam Supreme Cleave whilst the arcanes buff me (remember EXTEND, y'all have extend right?) and hjealers spam hjeal me! If this "tactic" doesn't work then something is CRITICALLY BROKEN and must be fixed immediately. Dragons should only be an epic challenge for other classes, not for EPIC barbarians.

/sarcasm off (... I almost forgot I had another mode...)



There are a lot of great suggestions in this thread. The answer to all bosses shouldn't be a head-on melee beatdown (DPS, DPS, DPS!!!)... Tactics, teamwork, and special abilities from existing pres (acrobat? air savant?) as well as new epic destinies (monk?) may become more important.

Also, I believe Vengeance777 ("Shock and Awe once per battle") over a tired hyperbolist, "Um no, you got hit a million times with it."

Balance may be a more important skill. As described it only lets you get up faster from a knockdown, which itself is helpful. But starting with the MA raid, the Green Titan's knockdown is a Balance check. AFAIK, prior to MA, all knockdown resists were a STR/DEX check only. In the past a strong enough raging Barbarian could resist Epic Lailat's knockdown (and the rest of the melees would be safe if "meatball'd" together). Personally, I've decided to max Balance on my SD3 18ftr/2mnk tank.

[J1NG]

To be fair to Shade, they were actually talking about the no save slow effect from the dragons rather than the knockdown effect, but Shades first post (OP) explicitly said knockdown rather than slow. So players reacted to the post regarding knockdown.

Knockdown? Lots of ways to bypass now or resist.

Slow? Whats the difference from the Level 2 Gust of Wind spell? Complain about an Epic Dragon's ability but not a level 2 spell? Biased.

It's the lack of differentiating those areas cleanly that has made Shades post seem skewed and self serving, despite there being merit to the concern of unsavable abilities.

:: edit ::

But it would appear in Shade's current emotional state, they were unable to place this concern cleanly and clearly into words that doesn't appear to be biased or self serving.

J1NG

[Sarnind]

/no signed, prefer more challenge

[Vellrad]

I'd say that a no save abilities are good when used sometimes by a powerful enemy on start annd once in a while, but not spammed.
And I also hate no save abilities knocking player back or down, its not only annoying, but also hurts people with more lag much worse than people with less lag.

[eris2323]

To be fair to Shade, they were actually talking about the no save slow effect from the dragons rather than the knockdown effect, but Shades first post (OP) explicitly said knockdown rather than slow. So players reacted to the post regarding knockdown.

Knockdown? Lots of ways to bypass now or resist.

Slow? Whats the difference from the Level 2 Gust of Wind spell? Complain about an Epic Dragon's ability but not a level 2 spell? Biased.

It's the lack of differentiating those areas cleanly that has made Shades post seem skewed and self serving, despite there being merit to the concern of unsavable abilities.

:: edit ::

But it would appear in Shade's current emotional state, they were unable to place this concern cleanly and clearly into words that doesn't appear to be biased or self serving.

J1NG

Okay... so if he's worried about 'slow' now....

Don't haste potions remove that? They always seemed to, for me...

[J1NG]

Okay... so if he's worried about 'slow' now....

Don't haste potions remove that? They always seemed to, for me...

The issue is not the spell slow, which is a magical effect. But the non magical effect Slow. Hence it can not be dispelled via Haste. With haste, you move at around the normal rate, not the enhanced rate.

This ability the dragons are using are non magical, hence they didn't have save attached to it. You're in a hurricane in short, nothing will stop the slow induced by it. This is exactly the same ability as those used by Air Elementals, and casters who have loaded in Gust of Wind. There is no save associated with it. You will become slowed straight away with no way to remove it.

But what Shade failed to mention properly, was that BESIDES the knockdown, there is a slow effect. And it is in fact the SLOW effect, not the knockdown that is spammed lots.

Whilst there is an issue of the dragon occasionally knocking everyone on their asses who aren't knockdown immune, it's the slow that's what was really of concern to Shade (according to what they have wrote after).

:: edit ::

However, Shade failed to mention that there was another effect already (Gust of Wind) that does the same thing, and posted that (in effect means they only want the ability by the dragon) to be nerfed. Whereas if Shade had actually written ALL non saveable abilities should be nerfed, including effects like Gust of Wind, there would have been a lot less resistance and looks of Shades post as though they're trying to pull a fast one as they didn't like it. ie, make it seem less self serving.

J1NG

[eris2323]

The issue is not the spell slow, which is a magical effect. But the non magical effect Slow. Hence it can not be dispelled via Haste. With haste, you move at around the normal rate, not the enhanced rate.

This ability the dragons are using are non magical, hence they didn't have save attached to it. You're in a hurricane in short, nothing will stop the slow induced by it. This is exactly the same ability as those used by Air Elementals, and casters who have loaded in Gust of Wind. There is no save associated with it. You will become slowed straight away with no way to remove it.

But what Shade failed to mention properly, was that BESIDES the knockdown, there is a slow effect. And it is in fact the SLOW effect, not the knockdown that is spammed lots.

Whilst there is an issue of the dragon occasionally knocking everyone on their asses who aren't knockdown immune, it's the slow that's what was really of concern to Shade (according to what they have wrote after).

J1NG

Well, thats why I asked, to be clear.

I dunno... could have sworn when my air elemental slave... er companion hit me with slow, it just meant recast haste. I will have to go doublecheck that on live now....

Regardless, most of us agree that dragons should be dangerous. It's dungeons and dragons. We finally got some dragons worthy of striking fear into a veteran?

Don't nerf that.

He still won.

[Kawai]

How the melee see themselves...


How the Dragonz see the melee...


So soon... you will see Ranger Only LFMs for the mean ol Draggiez...

/sarcasm OFF

[eris2323]

I have to go wash my eyes now.

[J1NG]

lol at Kawai.

+1'd as I've had a long day and needed a good laugh.

J1NG

[Chette]

/signed
No save abilities are sillly. Why punish people who actually put some work into their characters defenses?

[SisAmethyst]

I actually have to agree a little bit with Shade.

It is two different things to call for making it easier or to balance something. The dragons highly seem to favor ranged classes and in special casters. Previously everybody screamed that casters are over-powered and suddenly if one propose to add a freaking save so that melee characters may have a chance to deal with the attack you guys are more concerned about giving a payback? Seriously?

I hadn't had the chance to test all of them but the one time I did it I got beaten badly with the final consequence that I reloged my caster and dotted the dragon down.

Sure there may be tactics we haven't figured out on the melee classes yet, maybe there are save spots or the attacks follow specific sequences so we can get an alarm when to back out. But to add a save by itself isn't a bad option, even if the save itself may be insane high (and maybe could be debuffed).

[Moonsickle]

Knockdown should be based on Balance not STR or DEX [ could use STR/DEX + BAL to make for higher DCs ] and you should always have a chance to save... even if it means only a 20 will save you.

Constantly getting knocked back is one thing [thus on a wind creature would make sense to spam knockback] but constantly getting knocked down is another and should have to be subject to a save attempt.


If Air Elemental knockdown DC is 35 like Air Guard my character could most likely make the save with his 40 Balance skill but with only 32 STR or 28 DEX he would have a good chance to make the save but would still fail at times but not all the time... these numbers are unbuffed so raising the DC accordingly to quest's level would be fine, but zero chance seems kinda lame. [my numbers are unbuffed as I have no guild ship, yugo pots or super uber elite gear they are the values that would most likely for me to be running 90% of the time]

guess we need more Barbarian Arcane Archers now...



I propose at this point they just give:

Rangers 2 more levels of spells from the Druid line & remove Tempest as an option
Paladins 2 more levels from Clerics line
Arti another level of Wizard spells and give them Evasion
Bards get restricted to using shields penalized heavily for 2 handed combat
Monks get 6 levels of a combo of spells most along the healing/buffing line, all stances will be based on casting abilities and can only equip quarterstaffs [removing handwraps from the game which will help greatly since they're always not WAI anyways]

all the above classes get Heal in their top tier of spells.


and just remove

Rogues [ nothing some other class can't handle here anymore ]
Fighters [ what you just hit things with weapons... what's the point in that??? ]
Barbarians [ do I even need to say anything here??? ]

from the game

since we're entering a time where healing classes don't want to have heal anyone but themselves in order to save resources and more offensive casting


others don't want to cast buffs anymore again to save spell points for more killing...


think this would simplify the game to Dungeons & Casters Online [and they can make a new fancy logo for it]



.

[PopeJual]

Who loves no-save abilities? I meant tahts what we all beeen asking for when we think "awesome new dragon tech" we saw fernando talkin bout in those exciting motu previs videos ya?

Every "new" style dragon has very unfair annoying no save abilities:
"SHOCK AND AWE" (yes its written in all caps like that in the game too) - No save knockback+ Snare. (Also knocks you down as if that wasnt enough, tho KD portion allows a balance check to negate).
Wing Buffet - No save knockback.

Please no. Add saves. Thankyous.

/Sign unless you love no save abilities that unfairly punish the least powerful classes, and you dont like puppies.

You said before that WASD was all the AC you need. Now WASD can be your saving throws as well.

[MrkGrismer]

I have to agree any no save thing is considerably less fun. I would rather have saves be really high than no save at all. My fighter doesn't get knocked down by air elementals but still gets knocked around, and that is annoying.

As for knockdown immunities... How long before they change those to only being immune to natural knockdowns and a +2 to save vs magical knockdowns, but still no save vs. supernatural knockdowns?

<yoda>Hmmm?</yoda>

No save slow is aggravating... even worse if it can't be countered with haste.

[J1NG]

As for knockdown immunities... How long before they change those to only being immune to natural knockdowns and a +2 to save vs magical knockdowns, but still no save vs. supernatural knockdowns?

Good concern to bring up, but unnecessary.

It will be at least a good 2 years, until Turbine have run out of ways of actually harming DDO players with knockdowns and too many have immunity, and there is then also enough items to make it trivial before they will even consider this, especially since there isn't enough ways to cover getting said immunity.

It's also got to be spammed enough to distinguish magical and standard knockdowns. Which, if you look carefully around, already exists.

All standard knockdowns are actually not necessarily inclusive of damage. You could ignore via DR but still get tripped. Whilst the non standard ones always produce some type of damage along with it.

Artificer Tactical Detonation is NOT protected by any knockdown immunity and is in fact 100% reflex save based. You fail a reflex, you will get knocked down and don't get back up from balance checks but more reflex checks.

Titan smashes are entirely Balance checks and ignore whatever Strength and Reflex you have. The immunity doesn't block this either. You are also thrown about if you don't have enough balance, so it's not just Knockdown that you have to worry about. Only with enough Dexterity will you see immunity (48 Dex + 11 Skill + 5 Epic).

None of these alternative knockdown attacks are purely knockdown only, they do in fact carry damage and other effects with them if you are subject to them. So until Turbine removes the damage component or ties the knockdown and damage/effects together so if you ignore one, you can ignore the other (such as with Poison and Disease), you can safely say that it won't get touched by Turbine for a good 2 years as a minimum period of time if at all then.

Turbine will also need to tie the varying different types of knockdowns together, which Turbine have so far refused to do, and with good reason. As altering the immunity to a save means you have automatically made them all into a base protection save: strength, dexterity, reflex etc. And not all classes can get the saves to go along with the no fail system that you're talking about to make it work all the time. Which then brings it right back to as if there was none. Which they won't do as it's a noticeable (but unique and difficult to obtain enough) feature right now in how they've implemented it.

PrE: Acrobat (good saves for Reflex, Dex or Strength in that order) or Air Savant (Fortitude, Will in that order)
Destiny: Grandmaster of Flowers (Saves, then Stats in that order)

Looking at that, you can see everyone has a different protection aim and direction. Which one should the no fail immunity save go? None of the directions is appealing and in fact troubling to look at. As helping one would break another. eg. Going to a Reflex save will break the Air Savant. Whilst going Constitution can break the Acrobat. etc. Meaning an unlikely change any time soon until a later time when Turbine deems it to be a far more important issue; an issue important enough to change.

So, because there is such division in innate protections between the three ways of getting the immunity, it would be difficult to unify the attack together to change the immunity into a no fail on 1 save. So for now, I would say that your concern with the possible change is - for now. Safely unfounded.

J1NG

PS. To keep on top, I would once again reiterate that I would be amenable to have a save for the new Epic Dragon's abilities on Casual and Normal. But Hard and Elite should be left as is.

[VorpalKnight]

Who loves no-save abilities? I meant tahts what we all beeen asking for when we think "awesome new dragon tech" we saw fernando talkin bout in those exciting motu previs videos ya?

Every "new" style dragon has very unfair annoying no save abilities:
"SHOCK AND AWE" (yes its written in all caps like that in the game too) - No save knockback+ Snare. (Also knocks you down as if that wasnt enough, tho KD portion allows a balance check to negate).
Wing Buffet - No save knockback.

Please no. Add saves. Thankyous.

/Sign unless you love no save abilities that unfairly punish the least powerful classes, and you dont like puppies.

Heh, I find it ******** that characters that routinely kill godlike beings and defeated armies of monsters that are from hell itself that are bred for war IN HELL and always survive stacked odds, will be "SHOCKED AND AWED" by anything anymore.... well maybe except by stupid design choices in the game.