All the "New" Dragons. They need fixed.

[wetheril]

Agreed completely regarding REGULAR mobs. No saves suck. That's what the saving throw mechanism is there for - to allow you a chance to resist (or partially resist) an effect.

However, for bosses - I'm somewhat on the fence.
There's a slew of other MMOs out there that do not have a saving throw mechanic in their game, and the bosses simply have various attacks you need to deal with through co-ordination, teamwork, and reasonable player skills. If you don't pay attention, or just don't work well together as a team - you die. Simple as that.

I don't see this being a huge problem, and provides for some measure of accomplishment when your teamwork prevails.
Against certain boss mobs in DDO, I could see the same mechanic of "adapt and overcome" working well.

I haven't actually fought against any of the new dragons yet, but I do not mind no-save moves on named mobs as long as those moves have a decently long cooldown. It's completely unfair if they spam it constantly, but if they can only use once every 90 sec, etc...that I can live with.

[eris2323]

All I can do is LOL.

'This is too easy, this is too hard'

That's odd, I seemed to have no problems taking down the dragons... I mean, sure - it was a fight. But that's what we want, isn't it?

I agree with all the rest; it's rare - and there's the challenge you've always wanted. Perhaps now, you need to rethink your build, and/or party.

Looks like a non-problem to me - or were you soloing?

[Gulain]

/partially signed

I view the wing buffet knockback to be the same as giant's and giant skeletons. The simple mass/force behind those attacks knock you back. There is precedence set by giant's for a no-save knockback.

I can stand behind advocating adjustments in frequency of it, and certaintly in adding a save to the snare portion at least but I am fine with the knockback. It both makes sense and creates challenges to the fight beyond simply boxing a dragon in and beating it down.

That being said I didn't have much problems with soloing the dragons i have run across on my char although it is a monkcher and mostly stayed at range without issue.

[Valakai]

/signed. No save no fun. Yes you can make the save high but still have some way of resisting effect...pwetty pwees.

[eris2323]

Ya ever get the feeling when shade was screaming that stuff was too easy, it was when the devs had said there was a bug with elite epics - less hp than heroic elite mobs, and those kinda errors?

Just like when people are already crying druids are overpowered... uh yah - there's this bug, see. Lets you do 3000 damage with your spells. Kinda easy.

Can't really judge things till they ain't broke

[Aerendil]

I haven't actually fought against any of the new dragons yet, but I do not mind no-save moves on named mobs as long as those moves have a decently long cooldown. It's completely unfair if they spam it constantly, but if they can only use once every 90 sec, etc...that I can live with.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I am too, and the gist of what I was getting at.
So long as they're not spammed (like air elemental knockback), then it's a fine mechanic. Adapt and overcome.

They're DRAGONS, after all. They should be very difficult challenges.


(unlike VoN)

[eris2323]

Yeah, that's pretty much where I am too, and the gist of what I was getting at.
So long as they're not spammed (like air elemental knockback), then it's a fine mechanic. Adapt and overcome.

They're DRAGONS, after all. They should be very difficult challenges.


(unlike VoN)

Air elemental knockback is hilarious.

And makes life difficult.

But I actually don't mind them. We use them too, why shouldn't they?

It is awesome to watch people go flying though. Almost as good as when ya get a giant-whack and FINALLY, FINALLY, get to use that fly spell...

or something like it

[fabhpk]

OMG, another knockback effect? I absolutely loathe those djinns and air eles pushing me back... It's not challenging, just plainly annoying.

/signed

IMHO we don't need any more of those run-melee-knockback-run-melee-knockback fights...

Of course we can log a caster or ranged toon and kite away endlessly... again.

[nayozz]

well:

give saves only to casual and normal difficulty: problem solved !

now you veterans would be able to boast more saying... omg we beat the dragon on elite !, on casual normal is a joke cause his ability has a save, nothing as heroic as beating it on elite since his ability has no save !

happy now ?

[J1NG]

Yeah, that's pretty much where I am too, and the gist of what I was getting at.
So long as they're not spammed (like air elemental knockback), then it's a fine mechanic. Adapt and overcome.

They're DRAGONS, after all. They should be very difficult challenges.

Technically, they're Epic Dragons as well, meaning they should be able to shove you around as desired. Not to mention technically them supposed to being able to Reverse Gravity and chuck you to the ceiling and keep breathing on you whilst you can't do sod all.

And here's the crucial bit: they are not spammed unless you're in at melee range all the time. So it's not like an Air Elemental AOE either where the moment you go in you will get blown around. So range a bit and then go in. Time it all. Work out some tactics.

Also, get something like Grandmaster of Flowers for the knockdown immunity, walk in, get blown back a bit but not knocked down onto your back, then walk straight back in and start melee'ing again. If you don't have immunity, you're basically down on your back a lot. But this solution is available.

J1NG

[J1NG]

well:

give saves only to casual and normal difficulty: problem solved !

now you veterans would be able to boast more saying... omg we beat the dragon on elite !, on casual normal is a joke cause his ability has a save, nothing as heroic as beating it on elite since his ability has no save !

happy now ?

I like this idea.

J1NG

[Shade]

That's odd, I seemed to have no problems taking down the dragons... I mean, sure - it was a fight. But that's what we want, isn't it?

vague post is vague.

Post class, level, difficulty, area, quest.

Also stop loling and purposely miscontruing the purpose of the thread. No ones asking for easier.

I'd love if they mades dragons 10,0000x harder, just give a save so our stats actaully matter and its not just some very annoying, albeit trivial affair. Annoying is not fun, regardless of challenge.

[Shade]

Technically, they're Epic Dragons as well, meaning they should be able to shove you around as desired.

Well im a epic barbarian, I should be able to shove lolth herself around if I want with my 120 strength and 30 million pound carrying ability, but we all gota play by the dnd rules. Else its no fun.

[eris2323]

vague post is vague.

Post class, level, difficulty, area, quest.

Also stop loling and purposely miscontruing the purpose of the thread. No ones asking for easier.

I'd love if they mades dragons 10,0000x harder, just give a save so our stats actaully matter and its not just some very annoying, albeit trivial affair. Annoying is not fun, regardless of challenge.

Wow, why should I follow different rules than you?

Looks to me like you want an easy-button on the dragons, as they are too tough.

Here, I'll help a bit. I did it once as a Pale master, with a group;

Another time I did it as a druid, with a group.

Perhaps - we are talking about different dragons? I'm not sure, but you weren't specific either. Please give your details as well. Class. Build. Level. Items. and Favor amounts, please.

[Shade]

well:

give saves only to casual and normal difficulty: problem solved !

now you veterans would be able to boast more saying... omg we beat the dragon on elite !, on casual normal is a joke cause his ability has a save, nothing as heroic as beating it on elite since his ability has no save !

happy now ?

The dragons are jokes on epic elite. Difficulty has nothing to do with it. It's simply not fun to get screwed over in an unfair way simply because of the class I play doesn't fight at ranged. Melee aren't meant to suck versus dragons, they dont in pnp, they shouldnt here.

And no saves abilties are just bad no matter the difficulty.

They could set it to a impossibly DC for all I care for elite. Just at least give me my 5% chance. Rolling the dice is what DDO is all about. Take my dice away and no puppies for you.

[Vengeance777]

I've only been hit with Shock and Awe once per battle with the new dragons at the start of the battles. On artificer was knocked down but quickly got back up, my barbarian took longer to get up because poor balance, and my air savant was sent flying across the room when it was hit but was otherwise unphased. Really sounds like somethings glitched with the latest build for it to be spammed.

Nothing new with the wing buffet knockback though all dragons but Velah currently have an unsavable knockback wingblast. Even air savants and acrobats are sent flying away from it. Sinvala and the White Dragons in Reavers are infamous for using it as much as possible.

If its spamming Shock and Awe though it sounds like somethings bugged.

A possible fix if it is spamming the shock and awe (and the devs intend this to be spammed by the dragon) is to change the effect to frightful presence instead of Shock and Awe. This way there would be a save. Make the current Shock and awe effect reserved for when a dragon crashes down from flight onto the party, first appears, or bull rushes.

Here's Frightful presence from the 3.5 SRD for those unfamiliar:
Frightful Presence (Ex)

A young adult or older dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. Creatures within a radius of 30 feet × the dragon’s age category are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than the dragon. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a Will save (DC 10 + ½ dragon’s HD + dragon’s Cha modifier) remains immune to that dragon’s frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons.


Personally I'm fine with a no save aura effect so long as there's a tell, a set distance, and it has a cooldown, like blasphemy stun, irresistible dance, or abbot's Inferno. All of those are no save but have workarounds. Has anyone tested Pale Lavs or Mantles against Shock and Awe?

This may be intentional though. Devs might be trying to force our melees to use a ranged attack instead of brute force for these battles. Which is fine so long as it doesn't become commonplace. We have to range in Demon queen and pillars in LOB maybe they want us to range the dragons here. Will wait to see Dev response on whether this is a bug or not. If not I'll be making a +5 returning throwing axe of Greater Dragon Bane for my barbarian.

Edit: Actually guess I'll make a greater dragon bane thrower anyway that way I'm still able to contribute when they take flight.

[Shade]

Adapt and overcome.

bleh. The point is, how you adapt and overcome is trivial, annoying and unfun. It does not pose some kind of challenge that matters or makes any difference from player to player, its just annoying

How to:
Autorun into the dragon swinging like a jerk.

Should be:
Gear up, buff up, prepare well, activate your boosts.

Maybe even add a tell to it, so you can use active block to negate it.

These are fun mechanics.

Autorun into the dragon uz your constantly knocked out of melee range every 0.1 seconds with zero alternative? Not fun. Not challenging. Not good design.

PS: Barb haters: Barbs are better versus this poor mechanic then any other melee class, as they can get back into melee range a little faster with sprint boost and the longer reach of a two hander. Yes -- dragons ultimate bane, sprint boost...

[danotmano1998]

So long as their abilities are on a timer so they can't be spammed constantly, I have no problem with no saves on a few special attacks.
If they ARE spammed like mad then that is another issue. It can be fixed though. I remember reading dev comments that certain panther abilities would be put on timers.

[chintao]

At least there could be some semblance of balance and the dragon could, maybe just maybe, have a similiar ranged no-save knockdown/pin ability, and maybe the dragon would even be smart enough to use it on the casters and pew pewers endlessly kiting in circles.

Mob AI is the biggest contributor to class imbalance.

[J1NG]

Well im a epic barbarian, I should be able to shove lolth herself around if I want with my 120 strength and 30 million pound carrying ability, but we all gota play by the dnd rules. Else its no fun.

And there in is the problem at hand.

Mortal vs Goddess on her plane? No contest, Goddess wins.

Epic Barbarian? Dragon trumps solo Barbarian. Epic Dragon trumps solo Epic Barbarian

I don't see an issue.

If I was your DM, the Dragon will remain in the air and just breathe on you until you're dead. Which is perfectly acceptable if you say "by the rules".

So seriously, what you really want is "playing fair".

And in this case, as Turbine have given Knockdown immunity, they are playing fair. They want you to grind out the Grandmaster of Flowers Destiny so you can ignore this issue. You don't want to grind? Not Turbine's issue really.

Now, the question is, is that enough? And the answer is probably not. Hence, why the Casual and Normal ones getting a Save I'm gave my thumbs up to. Whilst to your idea I was only have on it.

---

And, for the record.

Jigglypath, monk, non Grandmaster of Flowers, took on Epic Elite Dragon
Jigglypath, monk, Grandmaster of Flowers, took on Epic Elite Dragon
Wennan, FvS, non Grandmaster of Flowers, took on Epic Elite Dragon
Wennan, FvS, Grandmaster of Flowers, took on Epic Elite Dragon

For Jigglypath:
One had issues with getting back up but was quick and had heals coming in. Was NOT blown around all the time, only once every 10-12 seconds. Was in a full group.
One didn't have issues and just went back in to continue dps'ing. Was NOT blown around all the time, only once every 9-11 seconds. Semi full group.

For Wennan:
Didn't have many issues, just got blown down every few times. Self heal, DoT.
With the Grandmaster Destiny, I laughed. DoT, heal, DoT, ... etc.

So I didn't have the same issues as you did. Even on my melee.

J1NG

PS. Your 120 Strength? It's nothing. You're forgetting scaling. Which means Lolth has in the reagion of 9001 Strength, so you couldn't move her finger if you tried.