"Let them...die"

[SardaofChaos]

I think you may be misinformed

No, really? What an astonishing observation... Let's see if you can observe anything else about that post.

[psi0nix]

What other posts? The ones when you attempted to backpedal? Yeah I read those.

Accusations of missing the point and lack of reading are common knee jerk reactions of someone who realizes their stance on the issue just got numerous holes poked in it and it now leaks like a siv. They do not serve to reinforce anything other than trying to detract from the credibility of statements made by those who disagree, which is all the poster has left as a tactic after realising they are incorrect on the issue.

Guild leader? Try private server channels. Most of the time when people are tarnishing their in game rep, they dont even realize they are doing it, because they dont get to see where their on purpose underperformance is being talked about. Who will take the most damage from piking and self enforced underperformance? You. Not casters, not melee, you. Its easy to get another caster, they are a dime a dozen. After pulling this kinda stuff you posted, it will be much harder to get into the good groups on your server. As ive stated, I know who the repeat offenders are from the first time casters were OP, and they still have a tough time getting into good groups. They arent hard to spot. Many of them were harping up a storm on these forums when crit fishing firewalls was nerfed. It was their only option, other than actually playing as a team, of course.

Backpedal ? - please point out where I "backpedal" on my request for casters to do nothing for melee to "let them die" - to not join the groups - etc ...

Or is your post an attempt to make up for the fact that you had no idea what was said and went on a complete tangent and tried to be "something" that failed ?

I'm most likely IN those "private" channels - my in game "rep" is unharmed, and really I couldn't care less what someone who would cowardly take action behind someones back cares about or does, speaks volumes about the person that they feel they cannot confront someone but rather attempt, and I do mean "attempt" to tarnish an in game reputation.

I have been told already of messages and things said, and all involved think it is very funny.

So thanks in a way as you have most likely provided some of us with some entertainment.

You do know this is a "Video game" right ? and that it has no bearing on really anything lol .....

And by the way, you mustn't have read my other posts as you claim, as you still don't seem to understand what was being said or asked of other casters.

Go back, read s l o w l y.

(Always the ones with all "private" toons that seem to speak as if they are "someone" in game... why is that ? :P )

All my toons are public, go look, squelch, whatever you like .....

And saying things like "they still have trouble getting into good groups" .... are you serious ? - LOL - you really have some superiority issues that need to be worked out......

So what your saying is, that you use your access to these channels to put down others and exclude them, those who you don't agree with ? - or have issue with their playstyle ? - encouraging other players in these channels to "not group" with them ? And you keep this "embargo" going for what...years is it ? - gee, sounds a lot worse than what I have posted doesn't it.

What I've posted affects the person who takes the action, not some unwitting person who has had a dislike taken to them by yourself, and it only affects the general population in that casters joining PUGS would be scarce. (if anyone actually does it) - What you've posted makes you sound like a schoolyard bully, in both action and mentality.

Sad when players try to intimidate others on the forums with imaginary "in game" consequences like being "unable to get good groups" - Like the groups your in are the "good" ones .... If they're anything like what you've posted, it seems to be the "jerk elitist" not the actually "elite", as those players who are actually good at the game don't behave like that. Let me guess "BYOH ZERG IP ..need guide" . . .

There is IMO no problem with casters at this point, melee may need a buff, I'll see how my barb goes but so far so good.

No class really "needs" any other class, if played well then any type of toon can "do" all the solo-able content, just different methods of doing so.

I've played many times with people who make you change your mind about just how useful or useless a class is.

[Postumus]

Of course. Casters are high skill, high powered classes. Melee are not.

I think melees are the easiest classes to play at low levels for absolute beginners. Fewer buttons to push, no sp management, fewer gear swaps. The way the game is designed just about any beginner can be a decent melee if they have a mobile auto-replenishing HP shrine with them (whether live player or hireling) up to a point.

Because soloing high-level elite content - even with a hireling - is very difficult.

Once a player learns the mechanics of the game, casters are actually the easiest class to play. Self-healing, burst dps, dots, AoEs, and a host of helpful utility spells make this game a cinch for casters to solo elite content.

[Kalevor]

I think melees are the easiest classes to play at low levels for absolute beginners. Fewer buttons to push, no sp management, fewer gear swaps. The way the game is designed just about any beginner can be a decent melee if they have a mobile auto-replenishing HP shrine with them (whether live player or hireling) up to a point.

Because soloing high-level elite content - even with a hireling - is very difficult.

Once a player learns the mechanics of the game, casters are actually the easiest class to play. Self-healing, burst dps, dots, AoEs, and a host of helpful utility spells make this game a cinch for casters to solo elite content.

Sorry but this comment only says that you have no idea to how play "well" any melee.

[Postumus]

Sorry but this comment only says that you have no idea to how play "well" any melee.

Which comment? You quoted the whole thing.

And what is your definition of well?

I've played melees well enough to cap a fighter, a barb, a tempest ranger, and a rogue. I've never soloed an epic on a melee, so if that is what you mean, you've got me there.

[Silvyrfir]

Sorry but this comment only says that you have no idea to how play "well" any melee.

I believe you misuderstood that, like I did the first time I read treir post.
Allow me to try and clarify a bit:

For the first few levels (I'd say <4), melees are the ideal and easy to handle choice for beginners because you can easily get by with the poor gear you are able to find and get pretty far just by hacking and slashing everything. Even many arcanes at this point use master's touch and pick up a greatsword (now with the lowered sp costs they can try out some spells too though).

As a low level melee dps nothing more is expected from you. Sure during this time they should learn to use right gear in different situations and to kill caster enemies first and a rogue to choose their victims with care if they want to do real damage etc.

Casters on the other hand have very limited resourses at the start, only spells for which you have spell focus hit enemies often enough. This can only be compensated with the good gear that vets can get. But as you level a caster's power increases significantly.

Regarding the OP, I think that method is pretty powerless and only makes everyone angry for you not contributing to the party and being a waste of a party slot.
As said before, Turbine can't be brainwashed that easily, they play the game too and make their own decisions what they think is best for their product.

[Paryan]

You do know this is a "Video game" right ? and that it has no bearing on really anything lol .....

This deflated your entire argument. Any point you made is lost as you admit, "it's just a game and doesn't matter." As it doesn't matter, why are you spending any time and energy replying to posts, trying to defend your position etc?

This is an example of your fallacy in understanding and lack of logic in your posts. You say it doesn't matter, so why are you bothering? Answer: it does matter to you.

As I posted in post #51 of this tread, you seem to think these changes are due to one (or a few melees) arguing over kill count etc. and that casters must be nerfed. Turbine is changing Wail to even it out with other abilities like implosion. They saw the problem with this spell. The haunting effect, epic ward etc. are not going live, and they have said this. So really, what's the big deal (and yes, I have a PM)? PM's are not one trick ponies, and if that's all you do when you play, you do not know your class. Yes, haunting and the epic ward were a bit much, but due to public forum concern, a workable compromise was reached and Turbine showed they listen tot he player base here.

Casters and divines will still dominate instakills. My post also pointed out melee nerfs like WoP, tempest, vorpal etc. A general theme has come up on the boards quite a bit in that if you build a character to only do one thing, then you only have yourself to blame if turbine decides to change that mechanic and you have nothing else to fall back on.

Please stop speaking for all casters/divines. This sentiment goes for anyone who makes posts saying "we feel this etc....." Speak for yourselves, and if someone agrees, let them say so. Don't say it for them. I have a few casters myself who will do what they can to aid a group, just as my tactics specced kensai and tempest will. For me, it doesn't matter which character I'm on, the group and quest are what's important. In all honesty, most other players will be better off if you decide to make the decision not to group with them, as it is saving them the headache of your anti-support view.

[Chai]

More of the same personal banter with nothing substantian to the discussion.

Ignored.

Your entire stance was picked apart by multiple users and you reply back with knee jerk accusations of not reading and not understanding, with no other substance whatsoever. If you continue to quote me and reply back with the same, Ill simply report from now on. Attempting to bait someone into trading personal insults is not a discussion.

[Chai]

My blue bar is my blue bar. Melee take heals and buffs for granted, but no one has an obligation to cast them. That's simply the reality of the game mechanics. Telling me how I am obligated to play? That kind of sounds like what you are accusing me of.

If a group leader puts up a cleric and FvS icon they are obviously looking for a healer. If you join that group/raid, then make the excuse that youre not obligated to heal anyone, when you KNOWINGLY took the healer position, and you do this regularly (not just one isolated nerd rage incident) then good luck getting into future groups as you build a bad rep on your server.

The reality of the game mechanics? Lets talk about the reality of the server community, which is far smaller than most MMOs. People are going to learn real quick that they just cant constantly give others the finger when asked to play their class/role, and then expect to get into the high end groups on their server. Alot of the higher end grouping is done through channels with the small remainder of spots PUGed out to other players who it is known can contribute.

Building up a reputation of non contribution and then telling people to not tell you how to play your character after taking a spot, then purposely being a non contributor? The channels are rife with names of these types of players, who soon after stop being invited to top end groups and raids.

[Rauven]

My blue bar is my blue bar. Melee take heals and buffs for granted, but no one has an obligation to cast them. That's simply the reality of the game mechanics. Telling me how I am obligated to play? That kind of sounds like what you are accusing me of.

My plat buys me heal scrolls (which hit me for over 300 with amp and scroll mastery), raise dead and resurrect scrolls (I carry both), mass cure mod (just to have on hand), resist wands (in case I lose my shippies and need resists, not like I've received a resist from a blue bar in a while), mass prot from elements (better than the single target protect, added benefit of protecting others), prot from evil wands and mass scrolls, displacement scrolls, invis and mass invis, mass teleport... And that's just a few. Prior to everyone wanting augment summon I've even been the main puppy buffer in HoX with mass bull and bear scrolls. Why again do I need your blue bar? Why have I been able to complete epics without a healer? Oh yeah, because your blue bar is your blue bar and no one has any right to say how it's used. Just like my plat is my plat and no one has a right to say how I use it, I just tend to be a bit more generous with my resources, which aren't as easily renewed as yours.

You're right, it's your blue bar so play how you like. But don't come here and complain when no one wants to play with you.

[DoctorWhofan]

All right...got the LFM filled, let's load into the quest...

Let me buff...oh, chugging down pots/clickies...ok...I can buff you. I have allotted mana for that...DOes anyone want anything?

The wizzy wants some buffs...sure...aw...he's buffing me! Thanks man! Let me know when you want spell points!

...now...let's get the party started...HEY! where did all the melees go?

Man, wizzy, we better catch up! They missed some mobs...you killl those and I'll get these...

Whoa! all the melees are dead! What happened? Wait! Let the Wizard and I kill these mobs first...there! What happened?

Oh...You don't have anything with FoM? I passed that out. In fact, the Wizzy asked for it specfically. Only 20 resistances and needed prot? Oh I asked but you guys had already took off....DW? Never didTangleroot? Oh, you should. Great quest chain andsuper easy to do. I got a set of Goggles of the fleshreaver for my SOrcerer out of it.

Yelling at me isn't helping. INo, I am not telling you how to play your character...Do you want a raise or not? When you outpace the healer and not prepared for it, things like this can happen.

Oh...you DON'T want a raise, then. Ok . No problem. I'll drop you at the next shrine....what, a mini boss? no problem. I have a wizard and the ranger isn't complaining so I raised him. He asked for buffs.


------


THree things have killed teamwork in this game...

1. XP per minute.
2. Kill count
3. MyDDO

It has NOTHING to do with melees, casters and whether or not you pay for the game...It has EVERYTHING to do with the person sitting in the chair at your computer...you.

YOU complained about the difficulty of quests. YOU complained about not going fast enough for XP. YOU complained about optionals are a waste. YOU choose to read MyDDO and the killcount. YOU

If you want to be a teamgame again, then play like you are in a team. Whether or not your team mates do it doesn't matter. You do it. YOU be the example.


EDIT: My example doesn't sound like a team player at the end. Because, it has everything to do with ME, too.

[psi0nix]

Ignored.

Your entire stance was picked apart by multiple users and you reply back with knee jerk accusations of not reading and not understanding, with no other substance whatsoever. If you continue to quote me and reply back with the same, Ill simply report from now on. Attempting to bait someone into trading personal insults is not a discussion.

I still fail to see in all that where you have shown my arguments backpedaling ?

Because I didn't that is why ...

As to people "picking apart" my "argument" , for a start there was not really an "argument" it was a request for casters to stop grouping with the melee class until the constant whinging about them dies down a bit.

My previous reply was in response to the barely veiled threats of in game "loss of rep", I don't veil things, if I want to say it, I say it.

Given that you seem to think I am encouraging people to join groups then pike, it IS clear you have either not read or mis-understood my posts.

I do know what I meant, or am to be told how to play AND what it is I am saying aswell ?

There is no "Baiting" about it, I would call the veiled threats pretty far from "Discussion" aswell, I don't take kindly to people trying to intimidate others by making such statements as you did.

This is not a melee vs caster thread,not supposed to be anyway, it's a stop whinging about casters on the forums all the time thread, because it just causes undue attention to the class and in this class nerfs.

[Bilger]

I still fail to see in all that where you have shown my arguments backpedaling ?

Because I didn't that is why ...

As to people "picking apart" my "argument" , for a start there was not really an "argument" it was a request for casters to stop grouping with the melee class until the constant whinging about them dies down a bit.

My previous reply was in response to the barely veiled threats of in game "loss of rep", I don't veil things, if I want to say it, I say it.

Given that you seem to think I am encouraging people to join groups then pike, it IS clear you have either not read or mis-understood my posts.

I do know what I meant, or am to be told how to play AND what it is I am saying aswell ?

There is no "Baiting" about it, I would call the veiled threats pretty far from "Discussion" aswell, I don't take kindly to people trying to intimidate others by making such statements as you did.

This is not a melee vs caster thread,not supposed to be anyway, it's a stop whinging about casters on the forums all the time thread, because it just causes undue attention to the class and in this class nerfs.

You talk about veiled threats I went back and re read his posts there was no veiled threats. He was stating and warning that by doing what planned people will talk in these channels and your rep will be hurt.

He didn't say he was going to that.

He wasn't trying to intimidate anyone.

I also agree that you haven't back peddled but you have a very bad argument when in one sentence you say casters aren't overpowered and in the next you say melees can't live without casters. (simply untrue)

IMO what you suggest with telling groups even before start as have stated prior to this post is a bad idea.
1. As soon as say piking pretty much ya will get boot most of time.
2. Name will spread through channels and rep will take hit.
3. Hope guild is as good as say that is only groups that will take you.
4. It's a game have fun, play the way you like, just remember there are others playing the same game and they want to have fun.

Seriously gl on your en devour. Just be prepared for the consequences in the long run.

[Ganolyn]

"Let them... die"

Sigh, I wish people would just let this thread die.

[psi0nix]

You talk about veiled threats I went back and re read his posts there was no veiled threats. He was stating and warning that by doing what planned people will talk in these channels and your rep will be hurt.

He didn't say he was going to that.

He wasn't trying to intimidate anyone.

I also agree that you haven't back peddled but you have a very bad argument when in one sentence you say casters aren't overpowered and in the next you say melees can't live without casters. (simply untrue)

IMO what you suggest with telling groups even before start as have stated prior to this post is a bad idea.
1. As soon as say piking pretty much ya will get boot most of time.
2. Name will spread through channels and rep will take hit.
3. Hope guild is as good as say that is only groups that will take you.
4. It's a game have fun, play the way you like, just remember there are others playing the same game and they want to have fun.

Seriously gl on your en devour. Just be prepared for the consequences in the long run.

There are some of the melee class, generally in the PUG screnario where they do "need" casters, and vice versa.

If the caster population stopped grouping with the melee type classes (apart from guild of course), then this in my mind would case a "hey, what happened to all the casters" type of response, and that leaves the door open to "Well all the whinging on the forums and calls for nerfs to those classes has resulted in those classes not wanting to group / play "

I do realise it's not the best method, but as is seen on here the arguments become circular and end up really going no-where, but the multitude of threads calling for nerfs are still created daily.

This does seem to have slowed down a little after the announcement of the wail changes.

I'm not condemning the changes, I am condemning the method in which the decision to do so was reached, as I do believe that all the posting on here had a direct impact on that decision.

While it can be a good thing for turbine to listen to the playerbase, it's a bad thing when nerfs are called for constantly.

I don't care about kill count, or who does the most of whatever in a quest, it is supposed to be a fantasy role playing game, again if we like our casters to be "godlike" then we really should be able to have that option, especially when you've spent so long grinding gear and TR'n that character to get to that point.

I have no doubt that actually joining a group and then piking would result in an in game loss of reputation, that is not what I am suggesting, I was suggesting to not group at all, and if asked say why.

I am not sure how I can get that across as I have said it in at least 4 or 5 posts, then immediately following are posts saying that if you join groups and then force pike ...etc... *sigh

The only thing that "matters" in this respect is the game experience, which has no bearing on "real" life, and also at the end of the day means nothing apart from how you wish to enjoy your game.

It is worth fighting in some respect for my class, as any changes to it can cause my enjoyment of the game to become less, which of course I would like to avoid.

I have also been informed of messages sent by some who I won't name, to my guild leader for a start, and others, attempting to cause a -non-group situation for myself, which has of course failed as anyone who runs with me / has run with me knows the kind of player I am. This is where the "veiled threats" etc came into it, forum rules prevent me from going into too much detail about who said what to whom, but rest assured it was met with laughter.

As I said earlier, players who are actually "elite" do not exclude others based on someones say so or forum post, it's about how you actually play.

There is a group who think they are good players who do this, but they generally know one way to run a quest and if anything goes "not to plan" they rage which really isn't a sign of a "good" player, and to be honest they are not the types I like to group with anyway, I prefer the relaxed players who know what they are doing, get the quest done regardless of anything going 'not to plan' and have a laugh along the way when things do go wrong. (like pulling a red alert in new invasion, pulling that back into shape is 'fun')

Sigh, I wish people would just let this thread die.

Much as I watched for weeks on end wishing that all those threads "Casters are OP" would die........

[Bilger]

There are some of the melee class, generally in the PUG screnario where they do "need" casters, and vice versa.

I have no doubt that actually joining a group and then piking would result in an in game loss of reputation, that is not what I am suggesting, I was suggesting to not group at all, and if asked say why.

I am not sure how I can get that across as I have said it in at least 4 or 5 posts, then immediately following are posts saying that if you join groups and then force pike ...etc... *sigh

.

So the overly loud voices of a few will cause the masses to have their toons nerfed, ok, fine.

But, I would say to ALL casters, do NOT heal them, do NOT res them, do NOT DoT up the end boss, do not Buff them, cast no CC unless YOUR life is in danger,

"Let them die".

As you posted in original post in thread that sentence alone says that.

How can you not do what quoted and not be in group. How can you let them die if not grouping? You have to be in group to get to end boss and DOT or raise someone. You did pretty much say it. If that's not what you meant then maybe you should watch your wording on things, because as you wrote it it seems exactly what you where intending.

As I have said in the first couple of pages melees do not need casters to cap or lvl in this game even in elite content did it on a barb life. (some just use a lot more resources to do it) Sure a caster makes life a lot easier and less resource intensive.

If you are talking epics then yes most can not be done without a healer.(That is only caster type a melee would possibly need)

But as you say we NEED casters so in own words that means casters are OP.

GL though and as everyone else has stated it's probably one of if not the worst way to do this. ( I have said it in multiple posts so far and just going to shut up)

[psi0nix]

As you posted in original post in thread that sentence alone says that.

How can you not do what quoted and not be in group. How can you let them die if not grouping? You have to be in group to get to end boss and DOT or raise someone. You did pretty much say it. If that's not what you meant then maybe you should watch your wording on things, because as you wrote it it seems exactly what you where intending.

As I have said in the first couple of pages melees do not need casters to cap or lvl in this game even in elite content did it on a barb life. (some just use a lot more resources to do it) Sure a caster makes life a lot easier and less resource intensive.

If you are talking epics then yes most can not be done without a healer.(That is only caster type a melee would possibly need)

But as you say we NEED casters so in own words that means casters are OP.

GL though and as everyone else has stated it's probably one of if not the worst way to do this. ( I have said it in multiple posts so far and just going to shut up)

I'll admit the first post was a bit unclear, it was typed in a rush / rage and wasn't very well worded. I did try to clarify in later posts, by let them die I meant that those who need casters in their groups would die because they didn't have any.

I did not want to go back and edit it though, as what I said is what I said, and I would rather clarify than retract (if that makes sense).

In some quests people "need" rouges, this does not mean they are "overpowered". Same with casters, just because some melee "need" them to stay alive (heals DoT etc) does not mean they are overpowered.

And if the melee don't need casters then are they not overpowered by that same logic ?

The way I see it, each class has it's abilities and methods of playing, the whinging about casters being overpowered was coming from a lot of people who obviously did not play them, or had little understanding of what was required to get to the stage where you can drop a wail in an elite/Epic run and actually see mobs die.

They seem to make out like it's "easy" and anyone can do it on a first life toon with one leg and a heartbeat. Which is completely untrue. As I've said, people seem to base the whole casters are OP thing on the top tier best players, not the majority.

The original idea, like a casters on strike type deal, obviously won't work, as it's clear that it has near 0 support. Someone out there likes the idea though as my forum rep has actually increased from this thread, whereas looking at the reply posts I would have thought it would plummet.

In game I've seen none that are really caring enough about the issue to exclude themselves from PUGs, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I'm not "mad" that people don't like the idea, I'm "mad", (or at least was), because of the, what was, constant whinging about casters on here the forums.

If you don't like them, don't play them or with them.

Some of the people posting for nerfs to them don't even play the game anymore, amazing.

[Drekisen]

Is it hot and humid where you guys live......I was just wondering because it makes it much harder to sweat and then you can't cool down properly.... but if you take a long bike ride it will force you to sweat and it will make you feel better.

Anyways...just a suggestion