"Let them...die"

[Bilger]

I would expect to not be running with almost anyone after telling them that, but that's something I am prepared to cop.

And like I said, if a lot of people do that, then it will quickly become an issue.

The current nerf, is not that bad sure, but it's the future that concerns me, where does it stop ?

It seems that nothing makes those happy that want to see casters nerfed.

There IS a nerf in the works, and yet there are still pages and pages (albeit from the same people) still crying that casters are OP.

Something like this might change their tune, and it's probably better to have an "artificial" lack of healers / casters, than the real lack of them in the long run once they are all nerfed to oblivion and don't want to play anymore.

Why argue for nerfs ? - why not argue for buffs to the class who feels left out. ?

What you suggest will NEVER work.

NO ONE is going to waist there time in finding a group that will take someone who refuses to do anything at all. (with the exception maybe of the TR train groups who say just stay at entrance for free xp)

Your suggestion if could get alll casters to do may work but will never happen because no one wants to waist there playing time searching for that group.

Casters needed a nerf that's why they argued and I agree they did and play multiple casters at high end.

They argue for (they and others including devs apparently) what's needed maybe they feel there melees abilities are fine and more balancing was needed to get it in order.

They got what they wanted by forums and speaking up with numbers stats and such. That type of stuff goes much further.

If go on with plans good for ya just expect to have a lot of down time standing around for that perfect group that will let ya pike.

[psi0nix]

This is last going to say on matter.

What you suggest will NEVER work.

NO ONE is going to waist there time in finding a group that will take someone who refuses to do anything at all. (with the TR train groups who say just stay at entrance for free xp)

Your suggestion if could get alll casters to do may work but will never happen because no one wants to waist there playing time searching for that group.

Casters needed a nerf that's why they argued and I agree they did and play multiple casters at high end.

They argue for (they and others including devs apparently) what's needed maybe they feel there melees abilities are fine and more balancing was needed to get it in order.

They got what they wanted by forums and speaking up with numbers stats and such. That type of stuff goes much further.

If go on with plans good for ya just expect to have a lot of down time standing around for that perfect group that will let ya pike.

I have no problems "shelving" my wizard / sorc / fvs and only running my monk, or even just solo running quests - perhaps do some "DoT Echrono's", group only with other casters, this is not a problem.

Casters can easily live without melee, but the other way round . . I'm not so sure.

Casters did not "need" a nerf, the best players on the best geared toons are what the nerf calling melee are using as their "examples", when in fact this is not the norm, and is far from the majority.

If that kind of power was attainable in a single life, with no epic gear, then it might be worth a look, but it takes A LOT of work to get a caster to that point.

I frequently MyDDO many of the posters here who call for nerfs, and do you know what ? - the majority of them (who don't have all "private", don't have a single caster in their list...... funny that).

[Jaid314]

there's something ironic about screaming that the melees deserve to be left alone to die because they are complaining about being weaker, when the fact is that the only reason the melees will be having problems completing any quests at all if they are left alone is because they are, in fact weaker.

if there was no imbalance to complain about, you wouldn't be able to threaten to screw them over. the very fact that you've decided you're going to attempt to screw them over by not providing essential buffs is proof that the melees are, in fact, justified in their claims that there is an imbalance.

casters are still powerful. when the expansion hits, they will continue to dominate in just about all content in the game. they will be easier to dominate with than any melee, and they will do a better job of it than any melee, provided equivalent player skill levels and equivalent amounts of time equipping the character are put in.

no, not all casters can solo all epics. indeed, many casters are unable to solo any epics at all. but most casters are able to contribute a heck of a lot more than most melees, again presuming similar skill levels and similar amounts of effort to equip are put in, and *that* is a problem.

on my sorcerer, i can dominate starting at level 1 all the way up to level 20. when the expansion hits, i expect my casters will continue to make my melees look like gimps. this is not because my casters have 20 different epic items and my melees have level 5 lootgen gear. it is because casters are inherently much more versatile, and are much more offensively powerful, while the way DDO works allows them to also be much more defensively powerful. without sacrificing any of that offence.

if you make a list of all the ways a character can contribute in this game, and look at the best builds for all of those different ways (and by "best build" i basically mean "most effective") you are as a general rule going to come up with some sort of caster.

if you want the best tank? usually gonna be a caster (whether they are divine or arcane is a bit of an uncertain scenario), who will be self-healing, while DPSing, while shield-blocking to reduce the amount of incoming damage.

you want the best DPS? caster, hands down. no melee competes with the capacity for destroying trash of a caster, and in the vast majority of situations a caster will have superior raid boss DPS as well, only running into problems if you have an exceptionally long fight consisting of nothing but pure DPS without any pauses in between. barbarians would maybe come close, but lack the range, the instakills (which are essentially a form of DPS), the varying damage types, and require a lot more gear to even get that close. also, their AOE is not nearly as big as the best caster AOEs, and they don't get abilities that let them DPS while doing something else at the same time (ie, a caster can throw down a blade barrier or a wall of fire or whatever else, to kill enemies while they deal with other things)

buffing? not even close. i think the most powerful melee buffer available is a light monk. their best buffs are not as good as level 3 spells, as a general rule.

healing? well, inasmuch as any melee can be described as being good at healing, i suppose that would also be a light monk, or at least someone who has splashed it. better have a group of 400% or better heal amp builds if you want it to work though, and everyone had best be using their own self-healing at the same time.

crowd control? well, i suppose currently the best melee build is, once again, a monk build. though in this case, i suspect a kensei/shintao multiclass will be strongest. pretty much all of their options will be melee range, single target, short duration, and tend to be a lot more limited in terms of targeting weaknesses (that is, if a caster is facing a group of melee trash, they can throw a mass hold monster. if facing a bunch of casters, web. if facing a bunch of high-save opponents, a dancing ball mixed in with debuffs and some kiting. and so forth).

but not only is the best build of each type a caster. as a general rule, the second and third best builds tend to also be casters. people will accept a sorcerer or even a bard as CC if a properly spec'd wizard isn't available. good luck getting into echrono on your 12/8 fighter/monk build on the strength of your CC.

casters are dominant now. after the expansion, they will still be dominant, even with the supposed nerfing of them (which ultimately amounts to, what... wail of the banshee getting nerfed? did anything else even really have a noticeable effect?)

[Simplesimon1979]

Try doing the Crucible swim on a wizard . . . (on elite).

Done.



Question is can a fighter or barb do it or should anyone without evasion be able to do it.

[Carpinelli]

This is exactly why my melee characters do not NEED casters. If a caster thinks they are so important that they don't play as a team, I am more than happy to stand back and let the caster do his thing.

Let the casters die.

[Bilger]

Casters can easily live without melee, but the other way round . . I'm not so sure.

Was going to shut up but this point is so ridiculous had to say something.

I can solo a new melee to cap with np at all doing nothing but elites(given I like to twink and such). Just using pots, scrolls, wands, hirelings, and such.

A new player may not be able to solo it but in group situations a caster is not needed.(healer maybe but caster is never NEEDED)

Casters do make quests faster and more time efficient and are great to have but needed is such a strong word because they are not.

Just as melees are not and just as any class in this game is not needed.

All are helpful maybe you just need a better understanding of all classes then because nothing is NEEDED at all.

[psi0nix]

Was going to shut up but this point is so ridiculous had to say something.

I can solo a new melee to cap with np at all doing nothing but elites(given I like to twink and such). Just using pots, scrolls, wands, hirelings, and such.

A new player may not be able to solo it but in group situations a caster is not needed.(healer maybe but caster is never NEEDED)

Casters do make quests faster and more time efficient and are great to have but needed is such a strong word because they are not.

Just as melees are not and just as any class in this game is not needed.

All are helpful maybe you just need a better understanding of all classes then because nothing is NEEDED at all.

Ahh, so casters are NOT overpowered and melee CAN do what casters can.

So why all the crying on the forums that melee are left behind and cannot contribute etc, why all the posts wanting nerfs to casters ?

(oh and that crucible run : was it before or after the last lot of updates ) Either way it is an achievement : how many people can say they have done that ? - not many I would wager. (there is the part where you can avoid the swim by getting through the door before it closes, now fixed I believe).

I don't base my points on the elite of the elite, I base it on the "general" population, and the general population of melee currently need casters to keep them healed etc.

And it's the "general" population of melee that want to see casters nerfed, I swear sometimes they are just trolling, but unfortunately turbine appears to be starting to listen to the trolls.

[Bilger]

Ahh, so casters are NOT overpowered and melee CAN do what casters can.

So why all the crying on the forums that melee are left behind and cannot contribute etc, why all the posts wanting nerfs to casters ?

(oh and that crucible run : was it before or after the last lot of updates ) Either way it is an achievement : how many people can say they have done that ? - not many I would wager. (there is the part where you can avoid the swim by getting through the door before it closes, now fixed I believe).

I don't base my points on the elite of the elite, I base it on the "general" population, and the general population of melee currently need casters to keep them healed etc.

And it's the "general" population of melee that want to see casters nerfed, I swear sometimes they are just trolling, but unfortunately turbine appears to be starting to listen to the trolls.

Figured you would try to put words in mouth lol

I said NEEDED and capped purposefully.

You said "they can't live without casters" and yes they can and do just fine without.

Casters SOLO epics not many melee are capable of that. (select handful)

I wasn't arguing there overpoweredness with you casters trivialize content.

A melee can live without them though accept maybe epics which you need healers for. (unless uber of the uber melee)

Healers at the most is only caster type you might need for any content, but having a caster just trivializes it. (which is why a lot consider them OP)

Now do you understand what saying.

Probably try another twist of words again but read full posts and see what saying and understand next time.

As far as crucible swim goes any toon with decent hp can do if know it and are smart with pots alone even sorcs and wizards and even on elite. Had a guildy do it recently and a bard type tr build. Seen wiz and sorcs do in past without any tricks. Besides that was anothers post and just telling my observations.

Casters compared to melee are OP it isn't even a question but NEEDED as you say not true.

[psi0nix]

Figured you would try to put words in mouth lol

I said NEEDED and capped purposefully.

You said "they can't live without casters" and yes they can and do just fine without.

Casters SOLO epics not many melee are capable of that. (select handful)

I wasn't arguing there overpoweredness with you casters trivialize content.

A melee can live without them though accept maybe epics which you need healers for. (unless uber of the uber melee)

Healers at the most is only caster type you might need for any content, but having a caster just trivializes it. (which is why a lot consider them OP)

Now do you understand what saying.

Probably try another twist of words again but read full posts and see what saying and understand next time.

As far as crucible swim goes any toon with decent hp can do if know it and are smart with pots alone even sorcs and wizards and even on elite. Had a guildy do it recently and a bard type tr build. Seen wiz and sorcs do in past without any tricks. Besides that was anothers post and just telling my observations.

Casters compared to melee are OP it isn't even a question but NEEDED as you say not true.

And not many casters are capable of solo running epics either.... very few that I have seen.

So why the issue then ?

Again, it seems when we talk about melee we talk about "everyone" but when we talk about casters the only ones taken into account are the best of the best.
Seems very one sided and basically one group trying to ruin anothers fun.

By your description it seems to me that things are in balance, the best melee can solo epic, the best casters can aswell.

As to the efficency of either, that's up to the player.

That seems fairly well balanced to me, and I have to say that you simply cannot expect someone who hits things with a pointy metal stick to have the same effectiveness as someone who harnesses the forces of nature, and wields the power of necromancy.

These things are "poweful" in the extreme, if anything DDO casters have a fairly low level of power, they are certainly not attaining "godhood" or splitting worlds.

[Bilger]

And not many casters are capable of solo running epics either.... very few that I have seen.

So why the issue then ?

Again, it seems when we talk about melee we talk about "everyone" but when we talk about casters the only ones taken into account are the best of the best.
Seems very one sided and basically one group trying to ruin anothers fun.

By your description it seems to me that things are in balance, the best melee can solo epic, the best casters can aswell.

As to the efficency of either, that's up to the player.

That seems fairly well balanced to me, and I have to say that you simply cannot expect someone who hits things with a pointy metal stick to have the same effectiveness as someone who harnesses the forces of nature, and wields the power of necromancy.

These things are "poweful" in the extreme, if anything DDO casters have a fairly low level of power, they are certainly not attaining "godhood" or splitting worlds.

Again another twist.

Casters trivialize content and compared to melee are extremely more powerful in DDO. (more casters can solo epics by far than melees and that is a fact takes less skill as a caster to do it)

I could go on and on and refute you left and right about everything you say and twist everything the other way also isn't very hard.

Your whole point of thread was casters are NEEDED and by casters (which I am one also melee also healer all can do epics but can only solo with caster or healer) refusing to do anything for anyone that it will cause a change to game.

Which I have rebutted and have said they don't need them to complete content as you seem to think they do.

So by your own statements caster must be in a group to complete which from where I am sitting you are saying they are OP. (hmmm see I can twist words to)

We can keep twisting words all night if want.

I was just giving advice that what you want to do is a wrong way to do it and will get you nowhere at all.

Now if want me to keep rebutting you I can and this will go nowhere and will change nothing in long run just be a waste of time. Just like what you have suggested casters do.

[Munkenmo]

If you can't tell that casters have been overwhelmingly on top since the days that vorpal had a cap of 1k hp, the exact time that insta kills were allowed to work in epics there's something wrong with you.

You're asking for divines/casters to not heal melee etc, knowing that divines/casters can and probably will live through content and beat it without melee, whilst the inverse is simply not true for most of the population.

There's an imbalance, and melee have been calling for boosts for the best part of over a year. In that time the devs gave casters dots moving them from best in group for dealing with trash, to close to best in group for dealing with bosses.

Unfortunately the devs chose to nerf wail of the banshee instead of boosting melee. Be grateful they're still leaving dots alone.

Your argument is flawed, and your logic is flawed, get over yourself and accept that something had to change, to make the game more fun for the masses.

You're clearly angry, try directing it at people making decisions rather than the poor melee who have also been nerfed for the expansion.

[psi0nix]

If you can't tell that casters have been overwhelmingly on top since the days that vorpal had a cap of 1k hp, the exact time that insta kills were allowed to work in epics there's something wrong with you.

You're asking for divines/casters to not heal melee etc, knowing that divines/casters can and probably will live through content and beat it without melee, whilst the inverse is simply not true for most of the population.

There's an imbalance, and melee have been calling for boosts for the best part of over a year. In that time the devs gave casters dots moving them from best in group for dealing with trash, to close to best in group for dealing with bosses.

Unfortunately the devs chose to nerf wail of the banshee instead of boosting melee. Be grateful they're still leaving dots alone.

Your argument is flawed, and your logic is flawed, get over yourself and accept that something had to change, to make the game more fun for the masses.

You're clearly angry, try directing it at people making decisions rather than the poor melee who have also been nerfed for the expansion.

The problem is, the people making the decisions are listening to the few on the forums that constantly whine about OP casters.

Again it's "ok" for the melee player base to bring about changes to casters that negatively effects their game play, and trivialises the time and money they have spent to attain what they have, but as soon as I suggest something that negatively impacts on melee I'm "being a jerk".

If it was truly an issue that melee are underpowered then lobby for a buff to melee, not a nerf to casters.

Otherwise it's a case of "I want others to suffer aswell", instead of "lets all get to a point where we can enjoy the fruits of our efforts",.

And again, it's nowhere near ALL casters that are able to do the things people are basing this nerf calling on.

Based on those melee who can solo an epic, should all the casters be on here saying they are OP etc ? - there are a great many casters who cannot do this, more than those who can.

It riles me that some people sole purpose seems to be to bring down others enjoyment of the game, hence this thread, I figure well, if your going to try to ruin my game play, then why should I or anyone with similar abilities help at all ?

Why should we heal / buff / CC / Insta-kill for you all ? - why should we not just say "your on your own, enjoy".

It's all well and good for the melee who just has to "hit things" to kill them, casters take more skill to play than a melee, which is opposite to what is said in this thread, the micro-management is alot more intense, and you need to know how to play more than you do to just run in and hit something till it dies, while a caster keeps you healed / mass pro'd .

All the while they are keeping you upright they are also taking out mobs who may make your life very hard (like kiting the shadows in TOD).

See i'm being called all sorts of names for wanting casters to have a negative impact on the melee gameplay:

WELL WHY ARE YOU ALL TRYING SO HARD TO NEGATIVELY IMPACT CASTERS ?

I'm certainly not the only one who feels this way, and I think more casters should simply "opt-out" of anything that involves the melee crowd, keep our "OP" selves to ourselves, and leave the melee to play the way they want, unhindered by us taking the kill count, or anything else.

The only thing that really separates casters from melee in their survivability is the self healing, but then if we could not heal ourselves, then we couldn't heal YOU.

The less fun you all make it for casters the less of us there will be, as has been seen with rangers. You will all be whinging on the forums that there are not enough healers or CC casters anymore ----why have they left ---- etc etc.

And you will only have yourselves to blame.

[AMDarkwolf]

How about punish all those horrible melee's by just not joining their groups?

Be better then getting squelched en' mass due to 'oh sorry, I'm just gonna pike now because melee's suck' attitude

[psi0nix]

How about punish all those horrible melee's by just not joining their groups?

Be better then getting squelched en' mass due to 'oh sorry, I'm just gonna pike now because melee's suck' attitude

That's basically what I am saying, and to perhaps tell them why, and also for as many casters (both arcane and divine) to do the same.

[Bilger]

The problem is, blah blah all same stuff said before,
And you will only have yourselves to blame.

What I am reading now is let's take are ball and go home.

You seem to lump everyone who don't agree with you as a melee.

I am a caster my favorite toons are all casters and I agree they are OP to certain extents.

Huge nerfs aren't needed but sm ones like to wail are needed.

I would be more behind you if they nerfed the bejesus out of casters and kept doing it but you are throwing a fit over something that hasn't even happened yet.

Sm nerfs yes and even melees and tanks are getting some in this update.

My Kensai2/DOS/monk ac/hate/dps tank is going from unhittable in a lot of content to being hit atleast 30%+ of the time. (transfers to lam failed plus in middle of tr's so can't get exact #'s) It's a big hit to all the gear and such I have collected over time and effort.

It's not just casters so get over that notion. There are a lot of nerfs this round casters aren't getting as bad as you want to say.

I think they are going to be fine and how people can whine over something not yet tested or done yet id beyond me.

PM's will be fine and destroy content still on a lesser scale than before, but not much.

Look at all sides all the nerfs just because slightly hurts doesn't spell DOOOOOOOMMMMM!!!

[psi0nix]

I probably should have clarified a little earlier, but I am not really talking about the now coming nerf to wail, it has been largely what inspired me to create this thread though.

I do realise that not "all" the people who say casters are overpowered are the "melee lobby" that I mention so often, it is however the main "problem" as they are the ones who lay claim to casters "waltzing through epics solo, wailing and finger of deathing everything in sight" and "they have unlimited mana", and so on.

This group has I believe been largely responsible for the upcoming decision to nerf wail. Remember it was not going to be a nerf to wail, it was going to be "hard to kill", basically immune to death spells until they got down to %50, this was overturned and the wail nerf introduced because it had less impact and basically didn't alienate the entire player base.

So for a start we have it pretty well in concrete that there was no direct opposition to wail, but simply the made up problem that "casters are overpowered", and this is where the "melee lobby" are responsible for having something, anything, done to tone down casters.

So from my, and I would think a lot of other caster fans, point of view, this group of pro-melee people have made enough noise, often enough on the forums that the developer and marketing sides of turbine have actually taken notice, and rather than really look into the right or wrong of the situation have reacted with a mindset of "we need to do something about casters", rather than "Is there really a problem here, or is it just a couple extreme cases".

So from there I would take it that in future the same group can have the same effect, and the nerf bat will swing again, and again.

It is fairly clear from the current state of the forums that nerfs to casters are still being called for with many such threads of "casters are overpowered", it seems to be the hot topic at the moment. Thing is all those threads have been created by the same people, who post the same things, and then people like me end up replying and saying the same things, rinse - repeat.

So it gets to the point where it's clear that neither "side" are going to give in to anything, unfortunately one of those sides has the capacity to have a very negative impact on the others gameplay, both past and future.

I think it might be worth reminding the ones having this impact that negative impact on gameplay for us can result in the same for them, yes it is "***-for-tat" but it's gotten to the point where circular arguments are the norm, and it really just needs a "resolve", this is my method on how to resolve it once and for all.

Both melee and caster should be able to co-exist in quests and raids without having any jealousy or feeling of inadequacy, look at this from the game worlds context, the mighty warrior against the odds, magic, demons, magicians, the mysterious wizard, keeper of ancient arcane arts, shaker of worlds.

I could go on but you probably get the idea.......(i hope).

This IS derived from D&D, it's supposed to be a "fantasy", an "epic fantasy", mediocre toned down powers and "balance" simply does not belong in that world, that kind of thing belongs in WoW, and other "generic" MMOs.

We just don't want our "fun" to become a chore due to others intolerance of our choices in character and play type.

[mikesharpshooter]

for sure casters can do alot quests faster easily and ALONE without using resource
meele and ranged cannot be so efficent.

so: do not nerf casters, make meele and ranged more efficent.

[Aurora1979]

for sure casters can do alot quests faster easily and ALONE without using resource
meele and ranged cannot be so efficent.

so: do not nerf casters, make meele and ranged more efficent.

Yea I suggest this everytime nerfs are discussed.

Currently:-

Casters= players having fun playing them.

Melee= players not having as much fun playing them.

Nerf casters:-

Casters= players not having as much fun playing them.

Melees= players not having much fun playing them.

Instead if they buffed melees and left casters alone:-

Casters= Players having fun playing them

Melees= players having fun playing them.

Falls on deaf ears though. Apparently nerfing one class is a better solution then buffing the other.

[donblas]

Casters can easily live without melee, but the other way round . . I'm not so sure.
).

Congratulations - you have given voice to the problem exactly.

[Edyit76]

Casters SOLO epics not many melee are capable of that. (select handful)

So because a select few very well geared, multiple past lives, awesomely played characters can solo some epic
content we should nerf all casters?

That is brilliant logic.