Is this right - AC/To-Hit?

[Postumus]

Just admit it and make a % system that works instead of trying to jam a d100 peg into a d20 hole.

Diminishing returns and % system means any and all bonuses you can add are useful - but get less useful the more you have - rather than now with the long mangled d20 system where many bonuses are either completely a waste of time, or way too useful once they put you over a magic threshold.
[/QUOTE]


Going to a d100 system is one thing, but the proposed change to 'to hit' is something else.

Diminishing returns is not a % system. In a % system +1 (or +1%) will always be half of +2 (or +2%) and one fifth of +5. In this system the actual percent value of "+1" varies, it scales depending on the AC and level of character.

Players will not be able to look at an item and intuitively know how much better a +5 weapon is than a +1 weapon because depending on at what level they use it and against what AC they use it on. Does the +5 weapon give a +25% chance to hit? Does it give a +20% chance to hit? +18.5%?

With the new formulas all you will know as a player is that +5>+1 therefore it is some unknown order of magnitude better. At that point you might as well just color code the items and toss out +'s altogether since the relative values won't be consistent.

And as long as you have power creep without hard caps on upper limits, they will need to keep 'normalizing' the game, and going to a d100 system is just a temporary fix.

[Synthetic]

Players will not be able to look at an item and intuitively know how much better a +5 weapon is than a +1 weapon because depending on at what level they use it and against what AC they use it on. Does the +5 weapon give a +25% chance to hit? Does it give a +20% chance to hit? +18.5%?

With the new formulas all you will know as a player is that +5>+1 therefore it is some unknown order of magnitude better. At that point you might as well just color code the items and toss out +'s altogether since the relative values won't be consistent.

And as long as you have power creep without hard caps on upper limits, they will need to keep 'normalizing' the game, and going to a d100 system is just a temporary fix.

Actually the system isn't that complicated you have a bonus which grows and is appropriate for your level - +1 sword for a level 1 +6 weapon for a level 20 each providing a 5% to hit at the respective level - assuming you're fighting level appropriate stuff. Now you want to work on another stack of bonuses. An example would be for a fighter stacks would be like

Attribute - strength
Enchantment of weapon
Buffs - GH, Bless etc. (5min duration on bless clickies now)
Flanking mastery
Weapon Focus
Sneak attack bonus
Other gear bonuses
Debuffs <- worth slightly more then additive bonuses, but you can't take them with you.

If a level 20 keeps each of these stacks at about a +6 level then you're going to be getting about a 5% increase per stack. If you don't then you have to raise another stack to make up for it. You'll pretty much always have 50% to hit if you're a full bab class as your bab alone is enough for that in general. With 9 stacks that are close to the +6 you'll be close to maxed out beyond that it's pretty hard to increase, but debuffs have a big effect so that's probably the way to go at that point. Granted it seems most people on their own can get 4-5 stacks of bonuses and beyond that you'll be looking for the bard etc to help out further though you'll have a bit of carry over - if you have huge strength that could be worth 2 stacks.

At least that's how I'd explain it based off of the to hit charts folks have put up.

[BTIGER]

/signed

Say NO to a bland game, say NO to ditching d20, say NO to the new "system".

Make a new petition thread to stop it then.

Mostly it seems to me the elitists who want to keep the balance of power in check. It makes you feel uber to tell people their characters suck compared to you.

[BTIGER]

Seriously?


If +/- 10 to hit normally results in between a %5 and a %10 difference how do we have meaningful build choices? That's 20 points of strength and it only gives an effective +1 or +2? to hit. It's sickening that you think this doesn't change combat/character building.

Does STR affect damage or does it not? Case closed. Goodbye.

[Postumus]

Does STR affect damage or does it not? Case closed. Goodbye.

ha ha ha what are you even talking about?

[Dandonk]

Make a new petition thread to stop it then.

Mostly it seems to me the elitists who want to keep the balance of power in check. It makes you feel uber to tell people their characters suck compared to you.

Heh, me elitist? Thank you for the vote of confidence in my characters, I'll be sure to mention this in guild chat. People need a laugh at this point.

I don't want anyone to "suck". But I do want build choices to matter. With the new system, raising attack stat will be next to pointless.

[noinfo]

Heh, me elitist? Thank you for the vote of confidence in my characters, I'll be sure to mention this in guild chat. People need a laugh at this point.

I don't want anyone to "suck". But I do want build choices to matter. With the new system, raising attack stat will be next to pointless.

And thats the problem with this new system you can make very poor build decisions and you can get away with it as people who spend time actually building and gearing get only a marginal improvement from it. There is no reason to try and aquire or build if its not going to improve your character and this by itself even ignoring all the other issues puts a cap on peoples interests. I have yet to see anyone build a toon with the goal to be average.

[noinfo]

Make a new petition thread to stop it then.

Mostly it seems to me the elitists who want to keep the balance of power in check. It makes you feel uber to tell people their characters suck compared to you.

What your post comes accross as is that I want to be as good as the people who play alot and have put effort into building their toons but without any real effort, your post is written in a way that makes the quoted seem to be selfish but you may want to reflect on your own reasons first.

If you want to change a system to make it easier for some to achieve goals thats no problem to me, but if you leave out the top tiers in those area, those who spend the time to gear and develop then those people will lose interest. These hard core players are not the majority of your market by a long shot but they are your consistent market, they are the ones who stuck out the hard times of no content and will be here long after those who desire mediocrity and bringing those who put in the effort to be pulled down to their level have gone.

[Postumus]

Actually the system isn't that complicated you have a bonus which grows and is appropriate for your level - +1 sword for a level 1 +6 weapon for a level 20 each providing a 5% to hit at the respective level - assuming you're fighting level appropriate stuff. Now you want to work on another stack of bonuses. An example would be for a fighter stacks would be like
rd etc to help out further though you'll have a bit of carry over - if you have huge strength that could be worth 2 stacks.

At least that's how I'd explain it based off of the to hit charts folks have put up.

This is incorrect. If you look at the calculations done is the to hit threads you.ll see that you get diminishing returns the higher the enemy AC. Consider you can get a +5 weapon at L10. That weapon does not equate to +5% at level ten. But it eventually it will go below +5%. But when? it is not intuitive.

[Nyvn]

Does STR affect damage or does it not? Case closed. Goodbye.

How about Destruction and Sunder? That's -8 to hit, which again can give 0-%10 increase in to hit. These effects are alot less useful than before.

While the AC for players had serious flaws, this drastically changes the to-hit system which was working quite well for players. If you were built for melee you were probably on or above the D20. Now it doesn't matter.

You're of course entitled to disagree, but please put some thought into your responses.

[Synthetic]

This is incorrect. If you look at the calculations done is the to hit threads you.ll see that you get diminishing returns the higher the enemy AC. Consider you can get a +5 weapon at L10. That weapon does not equate to +5% at level ten. But it eventually it will go below +5%. But when? it is not intuitive.

In the old system you got diminishing returns also it's just you either got a 5% return or you didn't, which is rather diminishing :P

Since you don't like the other example how about this for you. Take your level divide by 3 multiple that by 10. That's what you need to always hit the best monster AC for your level - not counting your BAB. If you increase your to hit by the first number you've increased your chance to hit by 5% - also you start with roughly a 50% chance to hit purely from BaB if you're a full bab class. Granted that's to always hit the high end stuff epic malicia at level 20. If you want to know how you can always hit elite trash it looks to be lower like level divide by 4 multiple by 10. This is simply a way to judge when you'll get 5% it's not a hard rule because as you pointed out it depends on your opponents AC. This makes the assumption that high boss AC stuff is moving at a +3 to AC per level while high trash is +2 per level, and of course AC can't be lower then 10.

The actual number you need to get 5% is 10% of your opponent AC * 10. The best way to get this is divide things into buckets of 10 and start working on them. That way you know what you want to work on to get the 5% increase.

The new system makes things like flanking mastery useful, while before you didn't need it because you hit everything do to AC being useless - yes it was useless for monsters also.