Is this right - AC/To-Hit?

[Frotz]

In short, it's real easy to hit anything at least some of the time, easy to be missed some of the time, hard to hit all of the time, and really hard to be missed all of the time.

Disagree.

I meant that as a summary of the way the current Beta equation is working, which I believe you'd agree with.

[Indoran]

The +25% is simply NOT ELEGANT...

get rid of that and make to hit more meaningful... that +25% is an essential part of you actually hitting. Rendering the rest of the to hit meaningless... as I stated in the fighter pl thread your formula is currently making lots of work useless.

A solution to a problem must be elegant, simple, and based on empirical data...

Empirical data right now (as exemplified in the posts above) say the formula makes LOTS of things irrelevant... don't go through with it... change it! one of the objectives was to make ac more meaningful (being a DM for 11-12 years I know how this can be complicated even in pnp) the Armor increases may very well be part of the solution, but the to hit formula needs some reworking.

Melee dps is currently not that uber and affecting to hit (most important physical dps multiplier) will affect it.

As I said in the fighter pl thread: The whole weapon specialization and focus line of feats are now meaningless.

Whats the point of +2 damage when you hit if you go from hitting 95% of the time to hitting 50% of the time?

Your math fu mr. devs failed...

Rework the to hit formula... my first advice is get rid of that +25% and make to hit more meaningful

[Purgatory]

My understanding is that The new changes to To-Hit and to AC both have diminishing returns.

Have made it that Melee classes no longer should be concerned with there To-Hit scores due to Diminising returns

But to focus on maxamizin the most DMG per a swing where there is no diminishing returns.

Dexed based toons are taking double hit on this new system

Yes the Str based toons are getting a diminishing return on there to-hit also but they still doing alot of dmg when they do hit. but the dex based toons are getting hit twice with the new system as they getting diminishing returns on both there to-hit and there AC for which they gave damage in exchange for.

This new system says that melee should no longer work towards improving there To-Hit Score nor should be thinking about investing into AC. But instead Should be focusing on maxamizing the most DMG per Hit as there is no diminishing returns when raising ones DMG per a Hit.

Compared to what we used to have was when you wanted to do more dmg you would first focus on hitting more often this is no longer the case.

[joaofalcao]

IMO this is the sort of change that shows how corporated the D&D brand has become.

- Planned by people who do not play the game.
- Rushed out to meet deadlines and full of black holes.
- No room to admit mistakes as any corporation only does that in the direst of times.
- Lip service to costumers.
- No transparency whatsoever.
- No respect for what the product really is. In this case D&D turns into some mainstream garbage.

I came back after a long break and if this mess go live, boy, I really dont know what I am going to do.

[Jingwei]

Here's the table with (your) AC vs monster's to hits. As far as I know, the monsters don't get the +25% base, and they roll d100, so a few more points of AC has some chance of generating an actual change (1%) in monster hit values.

I'm not really sure about the monster attack bonuses, but think they are all in about the right place.
Think most epic trash has around +60 to +70 to hit?

Attack     Hit Rate
      0.7  0.65 0.6  .55   0.5   0.45   0.4  0.35  0.3   0.25   
35    33   35   38    42    46    51    57    65    76    91   Gianthold?
40    37   39   43    46    51    57    64    73    85   101   
45    40   43   47    51    56    62    70    80    93   111   Demon queen (normal?)
50    44   47   51    55    61    68    76    87   101   121   VoD Norm
55    47   51   55    60    66    73    82    94   110   131   
60    51   55   59    65    71    79    89   101   118   141   VoD Hard
65    54   59   63    69    76    84    95   108   126   151   
70    58   62   68    74    81    90   101   115   135   161   VoD Elite, ToD judge (normal?)
75    62   66   72    78    86    95   107   123   143   171   
80    65   70   76    83    91   101   114   130   151   181   LoB (normal + hard)
85    69   74   80    87    96   107   120   137   160   191   
90    72   78   84    92   101   112   126   144   168   201   LoB (elite)
95    76   82   88    96   106   118   132   151   176   211   
100   79   85   93   101   111   123   139   158   185   221   ~Demon Queen (epic)
105   83   89   97   105   116   129   145   165   193   231   Lob (epic)

To, to get hit 50% of the time in Gianthold needs around a 46 AC, to get hit 30% of the time needs around a 76 AC.

[MRMechMan]

I would assume a creature is proficient with the weapon it carries.

Or its claws, bite, etc.

But, who really knows...

[Isolani]

I'm trying to think of a character I have ever made that these changes would be good for...the only one I can think of is the 11 wiz/6 fgt/3 mnk handwrap kensai I made a long time ago. His to hit was never very good, he needed GH, divine power, etc just to hit anything at all. So the changes would probably be an improvement for him. All my other melees will be worse.

Also, these changes would seem to make plate wearing FvS unstoppable killing machines. Well, they were already unstoppable killing machines before the expansion, so whatever is even more unstoppable once they have a meaningfull AC and PRR.

Seems like trying to "go big" on any particular stat (to hit, AC, etc) will not be a huge priority anymore due to diminishing returns, just try to get mediocre at everything instead.

I'm not really flipping out about the changes. I'm not sure I like them, but I'll give it a whirl before I decide.

[Shade]

The new AC system remains in-active in the last build of beta for monsters.

Maybe they will get it in the next built but I doubt it. At this rate I don't believe we will be seeing it go live for monsters so I wouldn't worry.

[karl_k0ch]

Debuffing:
Now: Useful, sometimes essential
Will be: Waste of time/teamwork

To-hit gear:
Now: Useful/Essential
Will be: Not worth slotting. Unnoticable.

Tactics: (sunder/flanking/SA to-hit)
Now:Helpful, valuable investment
Will be:Waste of time/feat/enhancement

Buffing (GH/bless etc)
Now:Almost always worth it
Will be: Utterly negligable for to-hit. Wasted SP.

I have to respectfully disagree with that. When looking at the to-hit, it might be true that there is no point where you can say "OK, this is enough to-hit gear on my toon since I hit everything on a 2 with PA on".
But the buffs and tactics are much more than that: In addition to reducing the AC (which is better than increasing the to-hit), Destruction and Improved Destruction will also reduce the Fortification by 12%, something which every rogue likes.
Sunder will reduce Fortification and reduce the Fortitude save, allowing either Stunning Blow, or better chances for the casters.
GH is much more than just +4 to-hit (which doesn't stack with a bard song, btw): It's also a skill bonus and a bonus to saves.

And to-hit stays relevant. As a table above shows, also for high-end content, a +6 to-hit can still net an increase in +5% to hit. This tells me that in particular bard songs are still very viable.

[MRMechMan]

I have to respectfully disagree with that. When looking at the to-hit, it might be true that there is no point where you can say "OK, this is enough to-hit gear on my toon since I hit everything on a 2 with PA on".
But the buffs and tactics are much more than that: In addition to reducing the AC (which is better than increasing the to-hit), Destruction and Improved Destruction will also reduce the Fortification by 12%, something which every rogue likes.
Sunder will reduce Fortification and reduce the Fortitude save, allowing either Stunning Blow, or better chances for the casters.
GH is much more than just +4 to-hit (which doesn't stack with a bard song, btw): It's also a skill bonus and a bonus to saves.

And to-hit stays relevant. As a table above shows, also for high-end content, a +6 to-hit can still net an increase in +5% to hit. This tells me that in particular bard songs are still very viable.

Of course the fortification reduction from destruction, the fort save reduction from imp sunder, the saves/skills/fear imm from GH are still useful.

Given the thread title I assumed it was fairly obvious that I was talking about. To-hit/AC.

Effectively this change means that no one is gonna be hitting 95% of the time...at least in meaningful content...so you are right in that builds/players that used to hit 95% of the time now benefit from +to-hit buffs, when before they didn't. But every point of to-hit means next to nothing at high levels. In fact, due to rounding, more often than not it means EXACTLY nothing.

However, everyone and they mama are gonna be hitting 75+% of the time with any kind of decent melee build. The difference between the highest level of playing and the lowest has been very much marginalized.

Take 2 different groups: 1 has geared players that are flanking, GHed, bard songed, the target is sundered, acidfogged, the whole 9 yards.

Other group doesn't bother buffing, flanking, sundering, debuffing enemies.

Against a high AC target now, the first group could be doing as much as 2x melee dps (hitting on a 2 vs hitting on a ~12) or MORE.

Against a high AC target in the future, the lazy group still hits 75-80% of the time. Even that wizard swinging a spoon is serving something tasty 40-50% of the time.

I am all for letting ungeared players be made more viable. I am all for making interesting builds more viable. However, taking almost all motivation for getting BETTER OUT of the equation means that people will get bored with this system very fast.

Melee performance is quite gear based, suddenly shouting "YOUR TOYS MEAN NOTHING BUT PLEASE JUST KEEP SWINGING/PAYING" is a recipe for disaster. Maybe they attract new players that are less frustrated and stick around longer, but in the long term having nothing to grind for will see both old and new players start to yawn.

Luckily, I VERY much doubt the system will go live as is. To even suggest a system that almost utterly trivializes gear grinding, fighter PL grinding, buffs, debuffs and most importantly teamwork could be good is a bit mindblowing.

[aerendhil]

The new AC system remains in-active in the last build of beta for monsters.

Maybe they will get it in the next built but I doubt it. At this rate I don't believe we will be seeing it go live for monsters so I wouldn't worry.

Do you mean that the new AC formula is NOT going live ?
If so, you just made my day.

[MRMechMan]

Do you mean that the new AC formula is NOT going live ?
If so, you just made my day.

Ah I knew it! This was all just to distract us from the wail nerf!

[DrakHar]

Of course the fortification reduction from destruction, the fort save reduction from imp sunder, the saves/skills/fear imm from GH are still useful.

Given the thread title I assumed it was fairly obvious that I was talking about. To-hit/AC.

Effectively this change means that no one is gonna be hitting 95% of the time...at least in meaningful content...so you are right in that builds/players that used to hit 95% of the time now benefit from +to-hit buffs, when before they didn't. But every point of to-hit means next to nothing at high levels. In fact, due to rounding, more often than not it means EXACTLY nothing.

However, everyone and they mama are gonna be hitting 75+% of the time with any kind of decent melee build. The difference between the highest level of playing and the lowest has been very much marginalized.

Take 2 different groups: 1 has geared players that are flanking, GHed, bard songed, the target is sundered, acidfogged, the whole 9 yards.

Other group doesn't bother buffing, flanking, sundering, debuffing enemies.

Against a high AC target now, the first group could be doing as much as 2x melee dps (hitting on a 2 vs hitting on a ~12) or MORE.

Against a high AC target in the future, the lazy group still hits 75-80% of the time. Even that wizard swinging a spoon is serving something tasty 40-50% of the time.

I am all for letting ungeared players be made more viable. I am all for making interesting builds more viable. However, taking almost all motivation for getting BETTER OUT of the equation means that people will get bored with this system very fast.

Melee performance is quite gear based, suddenly shouting "YOUR TOYS MEAN NOTHING BUT PLEASE JUST KEEP SWINGING/PAYING" is a recipe for disaster. Maybe they attract new players that are less frustrated and stick around longer, but in the long term having nothing to grind for will see both old and new players start to yawn.

Luckily, I VERY much doubt the system will go live as is. To even suggest a system that almost utterly trivializes gear grinding, fighter PL grinding, buffs, debuffs and most importantly teamwork could be good is a bit mindblowing.

I can only hope the last paragraph is true. AC is broken. To hit is not. It's only a problem one way. Most first life characters have little trouble hitting on melee builds, and many are able to get to hits that are excellent. AC is a different story, completely. This new system for to hit is beyond awful. They have to know it. Very few even like the new AC system, but no one says anything positive about the new to hit system: because it's completely nonsensical.

[Shade]

Do you mean that the new AC formula is NOT going live ?
If so, you just made my day.

It is for players.

Not for monster so far.

I already posted proof elsewhere, checky my epic elite thread for screenshots. Still miss on rolls of 2-9, not grazing hits per the new system.

[DrakHar]

It is for players.

Not for monster so far.

I already posted proof elsewhere, checky my epic elite thread for screenshots. Still miss on rolls of 2-9, not grazing hits per the new system.

Great! Really, I understand some of the rage with the new AC system as it hits a few types of builds, but applying it to monsters and messing with the to hit effectively nerfs everyone.

[Emili]

The new AC system remains in-active in the last build of beta for monsters.

Maybe they will get it in the next built but I doubt it. At this rate I don't believe we will be seeing it go live for monsters so I wouldn't worry.

Yes, it's not in place atm...

If it were it would place BaB, Inspire courage, feats and many things including loot in high cost for low value categories...

i.e. 12 ap for inspired attack III on a bard netting +3 would not cross the to-hit line against a 50ac mob. A +5 weapon would net the same as a +1 weapon in to-hit against a 60ac mob...

[Eladrin]

Debuffing:
Now: Useful, sometimes essential
Will be: Waste of time/teamwork

To-hit gear:
Now: Useful/Essential
Will be: Not worth slotting. Unnoticable.

Tactics: (sunder/flanking/SA to-hit)
Now:Helpful, valuable investment
Will be:Waste of time/feat/enhancement

Buffing (GH/bless etc)
Now:Almost always worth it
Will be: Utterly negligable for to-hit. Wasted SP.

I have to disagree with this as well.

While an individual +1 or -1 to hit or Armor Class (on monsters) may not have an effect in a specific encounter due to the rounding to maintain the d20 for players, overall, debuffing, to-hit, various tactics, and buffing have a significant effect over the entirety of the dungeon.

For a particular attack, +1 to hit may or may not move you into the next 5% band. Against a different monster in the dungeon, or under slightly different circumstances (you moved into flanking for an additional +2), it might. Taking the entire quest into account, the +1 will make the difference occasionally, increasing your overall damage output.

Many of these bonuses and debuffs are less critical than before, when some characters would be unable to contribute to a fight at all without them, but together they should provide tangible benefits to the damage output of the party as a whole. There's also an interesting twist where AC debuffs (and buffs) are slightly more powerful in general than to-hit.

If we removed the rounding to 5% for players, then every individual +1/-1 to hit and AC would have an effect on player damage output, but then we'd lose the direct tie to the d20, which we're loathe to do. It's quite possible for us to do this, if there's enough call for it. We thought that keeping the d20 with this known behavior was preferable - let us know if we're wrong.

Skipping to-hit buffs like Greater Heroism or Inspire Courage would have dramatically negative effects to your overall damage output as a physical character. Considering the lengths that people are willing to go for an additional +1 damage, I think that it would be bordering foolish to refuse to use buffing and debuffing that increase your overall damage through the duration of the dungeon.

[Cyr]

I think the math is pretty clear on this.

It is a buff to those with no to hit to speak of and a nerf to the opposite.

No dancing around will change this fundamental relationship due to the change in the to hit formula.

What does this mean in practice?

Well it means that our melee/ranged toons miss more and are less effective while our caster toons hit more (if they bother) or are unaffected (if they don't).

Considering the power balance prior to this xpack would indicate the opposite direction on class/build balance should be occuring this is not well designed.

As for the rounding error making a +1 to hit not even matter at all in some cases, that is a sideshow from the main attraction of the overall effects this has on play.

[MaximumCharisma]

Am I the only one who does not understand the need to leave the d20 system for player to-hit? I know monster to-hit was too high and player AC was unbalanced.

But balancing player to-hit never seemed like an issue to me. I would like to know if I missed something important in these updates that made the to-hit changes so necessary or if it was only so that they could add random +% modifiers into the destinies.

[Voldomar]

I have to disagree with this as well.

Here we go. My last hope is lost

There's also an interesting twist where AC debuffs (and buffs) are slightly more powerful in general than to-hit.
.

You call "interesting twist" what I see as one of the flaws in the system