Is this right - AC/To-Hit?

[grandeibra]

A 10 str cleric using a +5 weapon will hit more than 50% of the time against an AC 65 mob, and you on't see a problem?

You cobble together an abomination of system that does away with d20 roots of a socalled D&D based game, and you don't see a problem?

You reduce the value of build choices that involve to hit to next to nothing, and you don't see a problem?

You make more or less EVERY character in the game able to hit stuff nearly the same percentage of the time, and you don't see a problem?

Really?

Really??

/sighs-in-defeat

Well put. Sad but true.

[BruceTheHoon]

These are both true.


In the current build, we're giving monks 2% dodge when defensively centered at levels 1, 2, and 4. They should also gain 15 points of armor class as they level.

We're still watching them.

We do need more +%to-hit bonuses. There is nothing wrong with overshooting 100% for regular monsters and in my opinion, with right dedication from any capable class, even on orange named (personal view of mine: if it's insta-killable, I want to be able to hit it 95% on my armed-to-the-teeth character).

My opinion is, that feats and enhancements should all grant +% based bonuses. That way, they are always equally valuable.

I also think, that these changes really should have gone through a "Let's Talk" thread.

[emtp]

I am not likng my clonk any more. I have played in closed and open betas and he is just getting trashed. There is constent swaqpping and now getting beat to death and some how I am suposed to heal a group. I dont have all the cool grear and i am just getting tried of runnig ad tring for a torc and only getting a **** crossbow i can use well and cant pass on to my arty. i am getting close to 20 completions and yet to see on. And now I will be burning more sp to stay alive. I am looking at what a pure build might be but I have only been running him on live to do a few raids but it is not fun knowing what is comong and how much the fun is gone when I play him in beta.

[WangChi]

Thanks for the responses El, I appreciate the feedback.

What is the most bothersome to me is this concept of diminishing returns. At low levels/low ac, we'll barely need any attack bonus at all to hit every time we swing. We don't even need a higher attack bonus than the monsters AC to never miss. But as we level, no matter how much time and effort we put into gearing up or TR'ing our toons for maximum effect, we will never be able to achieve that same level of "never-miss" ability we enjoyed at the low levels.

This will allow new players to simply breeze through early levels and never pay attention to to-hit bonus's or even worry about them, because hey, they never miss anyways, they don't need em. But as they get higher leveled, will they even understand they are actually missing if they see grazes?

I guess I just don't understand the point of rewarding people who don't try to make themselves better by giving them grazes on all hits and a bare minimum 25% chance to hit even the most well armored monster, but at the same time, you're practically punishing those players that have spent months or years building their toons (multiple fighter PL's, paladin PL, hard to grind gear, etc). All that time and effort for maybe a 1% or 2% difference in their ability to hit seems a pretty harsh whack in the shins.

[LeLoric]

We do need more +%to-hit bonuses. There is nothing wrong with overshooting 100% for regular monsters and in my opinion, with right dedication from any capable class, even on orange named (personal view of mine: if it's insta-killable, I want to be able to hit it 95% on my armed-to-the-teeth character).

My opinion is, that feats and enhancements should all grant +% based bonuses. That way, they are always equally valuable.

I also think, that these changes really should have gone through a "Let's Talk" thread.

My only concern about % to hit bonuses is that you get too many of them meaning bab and other things just get completely useless. Somebody already brought up the 10 str cleric with a +5 weapon issue more % to hit bonuses and this gets worse.

[Indoran]

Skipping to-hit buffs like Greater Heroism or Inspire Courage would have dramatically negative effects to your overall damage output as a physical character. Considering the lengths that people are willing to go for an additional +1 damage, I think that it would be bordering foolish to refuse to use buffing and debuffing that increase your overall damage through the duration of the dungeon.

In the current system. Eladrin that system you guys are proposing rewards mediocrity with that uniforming +25% to hit just because you are proficient... just imagine for a second the curve it describes and which component has more weight by itself... all of the to hit buffs, the items you have, the strength you worked so hard to max or that plain +25%

That's why I say in other post it's not an elegant computing solution.

It gives undue weight. Why not let simply proficiency by inside the parenthesis as one of many factors and not at the end as a plain +25%. (dont answer me ... think about it)

Let us have the chance to see it all matters... Currently +1s are circumstancial and have a non noticeable impact MOST of the time. +1 is pnp and live have a very noticeable impact (5%) make it at least stay in 1% Any +1... or simply forget about +1s....

because what is happening right now is:

A 10 str cleric using a +5 weapon will hit more than 50% of the time against an AC 65 mob, and you don't see a problem?

/.../

You reduce the value of build choices that involve to hit to next to nothing, and you don't see a problem?

You make more or less EVERY character in the game able to hit stuff nearly the same percentage of the time, and you don't see a problem?


/sighs-in-defeat

that makes no sense... I dont want my wizard to hit as much as my blitz +/- 10%

I want my blitz to show farming the stupid epic abishai set for +3 str was a good idea (a couple of month happily farming that) that my eclaw set with +4 damage is not gimped by a mediocre to hit now...

I want my to hit to matter! I dont want rewards for mediocrity! Fun for everyone includes fun for us who invest heavily in our toons...

[Grailhawk]

In the current build, we're giving monks 2% dodge when defensively centered at levels 1, 2, and 4. They should also gain 15 points of armor class as they level.

We're still watching them.

Would it be possible to tie the 6% total dodge from 1,2, and 4 in to the Wisdom to AC class feature that monks get so that splashes with only 1 level can get the full bonus if they have enough Wisdom? Max(wis mod/2,6) would be good. That would require a 32 wisdom to max out that's not an insignificant investment.

[Mahatu]

I rather like the idea of a collision detection based combat system with to hit working as armor penetration. That could be a lot of fun. I would fear that there would be more people balking at that than the upcoming implementation though for it being "less D&D." Personally, the exploration, the story, the adventure and the ability to develop your character are more what D&D is about to me than the exact mechanics.

[tihocan]

If we removed the rounding to 5% for players, then every individual +1/-1 to hit and AC would have an effect on player damage output, but then we'd lose the direct tie to the d20, which we're loathe to do. It's quite possible for us to do this, if there's enough call for it. We thought that keeping the d20 with this known behavior was preferable - let us know if we're wrong.

Please save the D20!!!!

[Cyr]

The +3 max caster level is nothing compared to the kind of dps increases we see from dreadnaught, shadowdancer, fury of the wild, fatesinger, grandmaster.

Numbers.

10-15% miss increase for many mobs is expected for melee.

That is a 10-15% loss to make up for in the first place.

A +3 max CL increase is another ~15% -20% dps increase. Higher DC's matter alot for dps also. Particularly on low DC builds like warforged sorcs where the stacking twist potential and much higher base stats will mean big differences for 1/2 or no damage saves.

That is ALOT of ground to make up IN EPIC LEVELS. In heroic levels it is just plain caster win/melee lose.

[orakio]

Note even close to enough to make them compete or not make them poor shadows of their former selves.

Less emphasis on monk levels and more on stat allocation is needed unless the goal is to insure that monk splash builds are completely pointless in anticapation of the enhancement pass killing them completely.

Your take on that is that monk splash builds are completely pointless? 2 feats, 4% dodge (which amounts to the equivalent of dodge feat +1% bonus), evasion, wis to AC, 3 bonus ac, and potentially a stance if you are using a ki weapon, on a 2 level splash and thats pointless?

Very interesting opinion considering what most other classes get for a 2 level splash.

[Stillwaters]

A 10 str cleric using a +5 weapon will hit more than 50% of the time against an AC 65 mob, and you don't see a problem?

You cobble together an abomination of system that does away with d20 roots of a socalled D&D based game, and you don't see a problem?

You reduce the value of build choices that involve to hit to next to nothing, and you don't see a problem?

You make more or less EVERY character in the game able to hit stuff nearly the same percentage of the time, and you don't see a problem?

Really?

Really??

/sighs-in-defeat

+1

If we removed the rounding to 5% for players, then every individual +1/-1 to hit and AC would have an effect on player damage output, but then we'd lose the direct tie to the d20, which we're loathe to do. It's quite possible for us to do this, if there's enough call for it. We thought that keeping the d20 with this known behavior was preferable - let us know if we're wrong.

You no longer have a direct tie, you have a slight nod to the d20.

Seriously? How we calculate the chance to miss is what makes our combat system good?

I always thought it was the active nature of it.

The active(ish) System is nice and seperates you from packs of other generic mmos out there.

But.

Since 1974 Dungeons and dragons was a d20 system, losing that tie makes this MMO less than D&D, not equal to it.
DDO now seems like a cheapened knockoff of D&D as other failed MMOs have tried to do.



Gary Gygax's Memorial Shrine is in Delera's graveyard (you know the chain right, the one where you get a D20 as a trinket at the end??), I suggest you and the other devs responsible for this, go down there and stand at his shrine and apologize for associating this MMO with his works.

The rest of us should go there too, to mourn not just the loss of a great games creator, but our own loss of a D&D MMO.

[CanuckWisdom]

What I fundamentally dislike about the new to-hit and AC systems are that one cannot eyeball their numbers and get a sense of what their chance of success is. Now, we need both a calculator and have to know the monster's to-hit and AC values specifically, or within a point or two.

Here's the post. The one I've been looking for to express what seems to me to be the biggest drawback.

I've been reading a bunch the past few days about this new system and trying to get my head around it. I have some good characters but honestly nothing too extreme, so I may(?) largely benefit from the changes, however, it doesnt sit well with me because I dont understand whats going on (the math).

The active style of play is very appealing, in the moment, but it goes hand in hand with understanding the system (without a calculator).

For example: When I'm actively playing and actively failing (lets say I miss too much), I can understand why that is and then (here's the important part for anyone that plays the game long enough to make it to end game content) SEARCH/GRIND for loot (i.e. decide which packs to buy, be motivated to repeat quests, see my characters develop after hitting level cap etc) and see a tangible difference in my characters performance. A difference I understand, and can actively appreciate in combat. Without understanding the difference, or presuming it doesnt make very much of a difference, my motivation to get the new sword (read: buy that pack) that will increase my to-hit by 2 is diminished.

For a game with no pvp, diminishing returns at the high end of the combat spectrum, is a serious disincentive to continue playing. For me, and I'm sure most other players, once you cap a character or two, the entire game is basically about grinding the loot to achieve understandable benefits. 'I see improvement path, I pursue improvement path, YES I did it', vs. 'this looks better but Im not quite sure, which direction do I go? Diablo 3'

Maybe I just havnt looked into the new system enough, not having played the beta, and I will eventually understand it.

[captainker]

Would it be possible to tie the 6% total dodge from 1,2, and 4 in to the Wisdom to AC class feature that monks get so that splashes with only 1 level can get the full bonus if they have enough Wisdom? Max(wis mod/2,6) would be good. That would require a 32 wisdom to max out that's not an insignificant investment.

Good idea, but 6% is just not enough. Barbarians get twice as much from uncanny dodge. Why would they even consider marketing the monk as 'dodgey' and give it less than a barbarian? Full dex and wisdom modifier to dodge is called for if non-earth stance monks are going to continue to be survivable.

[Cyr]

Your take on that is that monk splash builds are completely pointless? 2 feats, 4% dodge (which amounts to the equivalent of dodge feat +1% bonus), evasion, wis to AC, 3 bonus ac, and potentially a stance if you are using a ki weapon, on a 2 level splash and thats pointless?

Very interesting opinion considering what most other classes get for a 2 level splash.

Yeah, that was not stated well by me. I should have stated 6+ level builds which right now are very competitive as tanks and dps builds.

2 splash builds will remain useful regardless, but not for the reasons or builds they are neccessarly good for now.

[quijenoth]

What I think the game needs is a progressive attack system that is based on a sweet spot on AC.

what I mean is this... (and this takes into account the current system on Lamannia)

If an AC 20 requires a 20 to hit, someone with a +10 will hit 50% of the time. for each +1 to hit over 10 the chance to hit increases by a slowly increasing % bonus to hit - the higher you get to exceeding that magic 20 the quicker the bonus increases.

conversly for each +1to hit UNDER 10 the chance to hit quickly decreases. Even 2 or 3 points under 10 will dramatically reduce your chances to hit - but will eventually (by the time you are at +0 to hit will result in no reduction in to hit chance (caping your chance to hit at arround 5%.

This way you maintain the illusion of 20 points to hit scale but can actually extend it to 40, 50 or even 100.

What this means to a fighter is that a +1 to hit is far more valuable to him than it is to a wizard. but as the fighter gets to the automatic hit stage that +1 becomes less valuable. The wizard is still able to fight if he needs too but if he wants to actually fight well he needs to invest more than just a few +1s to climb the scale.. conversely rogues and other secondary combat classes will gain far more from a +1 to hit agaisnt average ACs.


im not always very good at explaining what I mean in words so ill take a leaf from Eladrin and modify my suggestion onto one of his graphs




as to calculating the formular for this, I'm not THAT good at maths and will leave that up to the experts

[WangChi]

We shouldn't have to know pi to 10 places and be able to calculate logarithms in our heads to understand a combat system. This isn't differential calculus, nor should it be.

The current system is easy to understand and that makes it easy for players to figure out what they need to do to achieve their goals, ie. grind out more gear, TR for a past life, etc.

[Blackmoors]

Greetings Eladrin (since your the Dev giving feedback on this thread!

Im a D&D PnP fan and used to play as a DM on our sessions. I dont mind complex systems or some number crunching as its somewhat part of the game and the DM job. Im also someone who has been playing this game since its existence and therefore have some insight on the DDO gaming experience. That said, I find the new combat system very "non" D&D and DDO like in various aspects, many aspects others have already pointed out!

First - the system is very complicated, I mean silly complicated and not user friendly at all. How can you expect someone to understand both your logic and math behind this change? You do know not everyone is a programmer or math expert and that many of your explanations and math demonstrations are alien language to most of us right...?

Second - you are conscious that this changes more than hurt this or that build (which ofc it will), will make every build more generic right...? You understand it will end many a flavor build and render useless many spells, feats, enhancements, items, etc... Its easy to predict many of the things I mentioned not being valid choices and as such, more people running around with same build and weapon/item choices. That in itself is the complete opposite of the premise of DDO and what you and the other Devs said that the new expansion would bring which is more varied options!

Third - your building a bigger gap between melee/ranged and spells. Spells are more and more viable options since this change will diminish the DPS output overall. Not only that, casters will be able, with no investment whatsoever, to be somewhat effective in melee. Again this will decrease the variety in builds since many a class will be less effective in any given party context and therefore less fun to play.

Forth - each +1 matters! One thing that every player knows is that each +1 matters now and should always matter. Thats what makes us players farm that quest 100 times, for that seal that will give my character +1 to AC, to hit, to dmg! You should never ever "round up" values, makes no sense at all and its contrary to everything D&D represents and DDO has represented since its existence! When content was scarce and a update was something that took 6-9 months to be released, farming for thous +1s was what kept us playing. Thous +1 are what distinguish each Character and what makes us want to improve them.

Fifth - Armor Class. I had a tank before and understand why a change was necessary. That said, never did I though it was something the game really needed that bad to the point were a entire system would had to be reworked for it be effective. If I was told in advance that in order for AC to work you would do this, I (and many others I suppose) would say no thanks, leave it as it is! I think there were 3 big issues with AC: it required too many items and build sacrifices to make it useful; it didn't benefited as much as it should heavy armored characters; it didn't worked on epics. I think the first two things were easy to fix (increasing AC bonus on some items and rewarding heavy armors and shields as you did) and the third wasn't warranted at all - a epic Demigod, a epic Dragon, a epic Marilith should always be able to hit anything if it stood still in from of it swinging a weapon! A epic minion of that Dragon, could miss a few attacks it a character was able to reach a epic AC but that big Red Dragon shouldn't ever ever ever miss unless he did a critical miss!


This is just a few reasons but im sure many others can be pointed out. I also know there's advantages for this system. For me the one that stands out more is making characters that had problems to hit be more efficient but at what cost...? Was to hit really a problem before? And if it was, you do know that its something each and every character and player could solve with a bit more experience, knowledge and game time. The beauty about this game is that anyone can and will always evolve and become more powerful...

As a D&D fan and DDO player/customer for more than 6 years, I would ask for you and the Devs to take a closer look at this and maybe test a bit more before you release it. Do a brainstorm with all the collected feedback the players have given you and try and see if this change is really for the better.

I for one really like what you, and everyone involved with this game for that matter, do with this game. Its notorious, the time, effort and dedication you guys put to make this game and universe we all love come alive and I will give you the benefit of the doubt whether this goes through or not, but I do have to say I really dont like what Im seeing in this change to combat system... Personally I think it moves away from D&D rules and clearly makes one the things that this game stands out (its dynamic combat system) more meaningless and less attractive... Food for thought one must hope

Anyway, its just my feedback and as always, IMO!
Black

[voodoogroves]

Seriously? How we calculate the chance to miss is what makes our combat system good?

I always thought it was the active nature of it.

It's certainly part of it.

Let's face it. We play D&D to shop and optimize and as much with our brains as our keyboards. The diminishing returns and no longer rewarding long-term grind as much takes some of the enjoyment out of it.

The abstraction further makes it less obvious ... 1 isn't always 1 and instead of the player having an "active' involvement in planning and building their character, now it's going to perform nominally based on the engine and weightings there.

[Masadique]

In the current build, we're giving monks 2% dodge when defensively centered at levels 1, 2, and 4. They should also gain 15 points of armor class as they level.

We're still watching them.

So the +20 AC, one every level, has been removed and replaced with 15 AC?

V