Is this right - AC/To-Hit?

[Ape_Man]

So now how does he go in a quest without healers looking over his shoulders? This is one of the areas it falls down on badly. Ac was one of the way to separate melee from blue bar or massive pot dependance now not so much.

61 AC (yes, a MASSIVE 61 AC), 16% dodge, 10% incorporeal, 20% blur and Hard Amrath was SLIGHTLY rougher than it is on live 70 AC.

This of course was on a toon without ship-buffs.

It's not as bad in practice as it looks on paper.

[Synthetic]

I think you should can the d20. Certainly keep it for rolling around the screen purposes, but DnD is not the d20 it's the adventure the fun you have with friends and the ability to make off the wall builds post them on the forums and have everyone else copy them!

As someone who did play D&D AD&D and the 2nd edition but never played PnP 3.5 edition it doesn't matter to me. I like the freedom of character building with the 3.5 rules, and that will still be in the game - and it will probably work better since it will be harder to make a complete GIMP (yes the gimp builders have a new challenge!)

[Dandonk]

As someone who did play D&D AD&D and the 2nd edition but never played PnP 3.5 edition it doesn't matter to me. I like the freedom of character building with the 3.5 rules, and that will still be in the game - and it will probably work better since it will be harder to make a complete GIMP (yes the gimp builders have a new challenge!)

True. You can then roll for where to put the stats, like in the GIMP program. Because building a decent character is now pointless - hurray for build choices! Even if they mean nothing, hurray for everyone being equal!

Not.

[Masadique]

I think you should can the d20. Certainly keep it for rolling around the screen purposes, but DnD is not the d20 it's the adventure the fun you have with friends and the ability to make off the wall builds post them on the forums and have everyone else copy them!

As someone who did play D&D AD&D and the 2nd edition but never played PnP 3.5 edition it doesn't matter to me. I like the freedom of character building with the 3.5 rules, and that will still be in the game - and it will probably work better since it will be harder to make a complete GIMP (yes the gimp builders have a new challenge!)

+1,000

Don't listen to the little guy below you, he's just mad.

V

[BTIGER]

Oh lordy lordy. Is this thread the epicenter for the impending Dooooo0000ooo0000m-ocalypse?

To-hit becoming entirely pointless with these changes? If things are more complicated than 1-20 numbers it's bad? Moving away from 3.5, even just a little bit, suddenly makes this game decidedly not-D&D?

Seriously?

1) To-hit will not be pointless to acquire. People currently do virtually everything they can for more damage. They do this because defenses are pointless (AC) or require very little effort to acquire (blur, shield mastery, HP) and there are so many sources of to-hit in the game that you don't need all of them for a 95% chance to hit. So people max damage. With the changes proposed, higher to-hit will always be a source of more damage. If you want max damage (which some people will, although less than currently with more defensive values becoming relevant), then you get as much to-hit and damage as you can.

2) It's only more complicated if you delve into the numbers. On the surface, for people that don't care, it's really simple: More to-hit = more damage, more AC = more defense. Will there be situations where more to-hit doesn't give any more effective damage? Sure. But we have those situations now, too. Most people won't care about that, though. And the people that do care about it are the ones who currently optimize and run numbers on everything, anyways. It's a non-problem. Could it be simpler? Sure. The current system is so simple that it doesn't work. But we don't want that, do we? No, we don't. There has to be more complexity. There has to be more numbers thrown in. Or else you'll get something equally broken.

3) Just because things no longer literally hinge on a d20 roll doesn't mean it isn't D&D. I have some friends who play D&D. One time they brought in some other people who had never played before. They made characters and want to be the best boat-makers in the world. So they put all their skill points into boat-making, and they made boats. No combat, no equipment. It's still D&D, though, because that's the heart of D&D: Customization. The ability to do what you want, how you want, when you want. That's why multiclassing is such an important part of DDO (and the main thing that sets it apart from other MMOs).

And when something doesn't fit, what can you do? Change it. If my friends want to be the best boat-makers in the world, do I throw down my fist and exclaim "No! You're in the dungeon of blahdeblah, and you have to fight these goblins, rescue the villagers, and escape!"? Of course not, that would be idiotic. D&D encourages modification to fit what you want to do with it. That's why there are so many manuals, so many campaigns, so many modifications, and so many people playing it in vastly different ways.

Some things just don't fit in an MMO with real-time combat. The attack sequences of P&P, with their decreasing AB for each attack in a round, don't work, because then people simply interrupt their attack chain and get the full AB on every hit. The HP totals don't work, because things would die way too fast when put in a real-time situation. These are departures from the official 3.5 rulebook, and yet people generally seem fine with them.

Another thing that doesn't really work is the d20. Yes, we all love it. It has you on the edge of your seat when you're sitting at a table with your friends. But it's virtually meaningless in a real-time MMO. There are so many dice rolls doing on that each one has virtually no impact unless it's that 1 you rolled on that massive Disintegrate that killed you. We all value the d20 so much, and yet it has no real impact on the game. Except when it's bringing it down. Having a 20-point effective range on hits in an MMO that's constantly adding levels and content simply doesn't work. If things kept going and we got to level 40, 50, etc., the exact same thing would happen with saves; either you go big or you ignore them altogether. That's bad game design.

So what do they do? Change it up. Make it work for the game that's being played. Just like the P&P group that decides to go fishing and do nothing else. Just like the guy who puts all his points into disguising himself to keep people from seeing that he's actually a bear for as long as possible. And yet a fecalstorm is launched because it doesn't stay true to the original game, despite branching off from the original game being a core part of the original game.

Is it perfect? Of course not. I think the free 25% chance to hit thanks to proficiency is too high and should be 5-10% if it's there at all. But there are going to be problems with any system. So long as it makes AC relevant, however, it's hard to mess it up badly enough that it's a net negative effect on the game (not the perception of the game, but the actual game itself).

Not trying to be mean or anything, but I seriously don't get all the furious complaining. Over-reaction is over. Maybe somebody'll explain it to me...

I feel the same way, except for the 25% proficiency bonus which I like.
They may need to tweak some to-hit +'s to % but Eladrin sounds like he agrees with that..

Whatever you do, DO NOT KEEP THE OLD SYSTEM!

[BTIGER]

Also, d20 sucked, Rolemaster was better with the d100

[Faent]

So now how does he go in a quest without healers looking over his shoulders? This is one of the areas it falls down on badly. Ac was one of the way to separate melee from blue bar or massive pot dependance now not so much.

Here's how. He converts to a Pale Master with sick damage mitigation, insane persistent self-healing, decent enough burst healing and massive quantities of pseudo-DR. Because, you know, a caster should be able to tank trash better than a melee. Like, duh, right? The Pale Master's ability to be beat upon by epic mobs, without giving a ****, needs to be revoked. Honestly, that BS needs to be nerfed into the ground.

[krogyy]

So the +20 AC, one every level, has been removed and replaced with 15 AC?

V

not sure if you got answered already, but i think it refers to the fact that now you get a total of 20 ac from 20 monk levels while before you got 5 for a change of +15.

[noinfo]

61 AC (yes, a MASSIVE 61 AC), 16% dodge, 10% incorporeal, 20% blur and Hard Amrath was SLIGHTLY rougher than it is on live 70 AC.

This of course was on a toon without ship-buffs.

It's not as bad in practice as it looks on paper.

Yeah from 70-> 61 in amarath is quite different then 85->75 with all those I can assure you I tried it myself. The differences is very very noticable and not SLIGHT at all and when I tried on elite not hard in a quest at level that was qute manageable via AC without massive healing and comparable to my barb in difficulty if slower in speed on live.

[noinfo]

I feel the same way, except for the 25% proficiency bonus which I like.
They may need to tweak some to-hit +'s to % but Eladrin sounds like he agrees with that..

Whatever you do, DO NOT KEEP THE OLD SYSTEM!

Whatever you do, DO NOT KEEP THE NEW SYSTEM!

Actually take a look at all the things that have been pointed out and address/discuss them. Say no to mediocrity.

[noinfo]

Also, d20 sucked, Rolemaster was better with the d100

Ah Roll-master I remember it well the game you played when you didn't want to use your imagination or make any choices Let the dice decide and the dice describe.

[Dandonk]

Whatever you do, DO NOT KEEP THE NEW SYSTEM!

Actually take a look at all the things that have been pointed out and address/discuss them. Say no to mediocrity.

/signed

Say NO to a bland game, say NO to ditching d20, say NO to the new "system".

[WangChi]

The new AC system remains in-active in the last build of beta for monsters.

Maybe they will get it in the next built but I doubt it. At this rate I don't believe we will be seeing it go live for monsters so I wouldn't worry.

If this does make it to beta before going live, could anyone please post some combat results so those of us that aren't participating in the beta can get an idea of what to expect (Not that it will matter, I don't think we'll gonna change this regardless). Thanks.

[Viciouspika]

To tell you all the truth the D20 system died a long time ago. It died when they removed thaco from DnD and AC 10 to -10. That is a d20 spread. With the enhancements in DDO and uber equipment and weapons, the range has increased beyond the D20 system for AC and to hit.

The system for AC and to hit needs to be changed to a D100 system. A max AC and to hit needs to be set and never broken or the system will need to be changed again. Work all enhancement, equipment, and weapons to a percentage system or keep with the current one but use a +1 equal to +5% in the coding of the game.

Personally, I think that the emerald build 2.0, that the highest AC toon curently on live wears pajama's,is funny and not related to pnp dnd.

For all those crying doooooooooooooooo00oooom or frustrated that they farmed so hard to be the uberest, there is a ray of sunshine on the horizon: the enhancement change later in the year. I think they will use the enhancement redo, to make you uber again, to fix whatever flaws in the system as well as equipment changes.

Have fun, good luck and may your chests and clams never be ransacked.

[Masadique]

To tell you all the truth the D20 system died a long time ago. It died when they removed thaco from DnD and AC 10 to -10. That is a d20 spread. With the enhancements in DDO and uber equipment and weapons, the range has increased beyond the D20 system for AC and to hit.

The system for AC and to hit needs to be changed to a D100 system. A max AC and to hit needs to be set and never broken or the system will need to be changed again. Work all enhancement, equipment, and weapons to a percentage system or keep with the current one but use a +1 equal to +5% in the coding of the game.

Personally, I think that the emerald build 2.0, that the highest AC toon curently on live wears pajama's,is funny and not related to pnp dnd.

For all those crying doooooooooooooooo00oooom or frustrated that they farmed so hard to be the uberest, there is a ray of sunshine on the horizon: the enhancement change later in the year. I think they will use the enhancement redo, to make you uber again, to fix whatever flaws in the system as well as equipment changes.

Have fun, good luck and may your chests and clams never be ransacked.

Another +1!

@Noinfo: Say no to elitism.

V

[Cetus]

I never cared much about the d20 system. Whats important to me is that the game is ENJOYABLE and BALANCED. If that means deviate from the d20 system, by all means do it. The dice roll doesn't make or break this game for me. Sooner or later this game will crush under the d20 constriction if we are ever going to expand even further to levels 30 + beyond.

[Scraap]

Seriously? How we calculate the chance to miss is what makes our combat system good?

I always thought it was the active nature of it.

Alright. So. To-hit, to-be-missed, and active combat.

Part of what does make the current live system as good as it is, before it breaks down (note that I do not dispute that it breaks down, merely dispute the cause), that I think ya'll are loosing track of, and have been for a while, is making snap judgements based on dungeon geometry, threat assessment, and a given toons customized tool-set to react to those.

The tool-sets under consideration for this thread:

The distinction between a toon with overkill to-hit while moving, and while not, for instance, has a great impact on whether or not a given play-style is supported by a given class+race combination, making them play distinctly differently. The overkill to-hitter can dart from mob to mob, while one on the dice is actually impacted by that -4 to-hit, forcing them to slow down a bit, and take a few counter-swings (more, the less on-the-dice they are). Note also of course, that this is the only reason that feats like spring attack, shot on the run, or weapon finesse are supposed to exist, as far as the core design end goes.

The distinction between a toon that can take a fireball to the face and keep going, and one that can't, hasn't changed. 'nough said.

The distinction between a toon with relevant AC, and one without also has an impact. Bosses get talked about a lot, but by and large, bosses are where the action breaks down, since it's one mob, sometimes 2, and we're dog-piling them, by and large. Where it shows the most on a pure melee toon, is where we're on the receiving end of being outnumbered. One with high-relevance AC can prioritize the highest threat single mob while soaking the damage potential of it's minions, while one with low-relevance AC needs to pick off a few to whittle the extra damage on down to levels it can manage. Furthermore, for characters with the additional options of THF or S&B, where choosing to put away that axe actually makes a relevant AC distinction, that's one less decision to make on a per-encounter basis.

Marginalizing gains in to-hit and to-be-hit therefore marginalizes the distinctions in offensive and defensive decision-making, both from the character design end as far as long term impacts, and the questing end as far as short term tactics (and more importantly, per-encounter strategy, since there's a direct correlation there for how many mobs a given toon can handle), and reduces re-playability, since approaching various encounters various ways can and does breathe new life into the old girl when you do get to the point of being highly successful with a given archetype. Note also of course, that it puts a serious cramp in the motivation to pursue further gains in a given aspect the further you are into that margin.

[Nyvn]

I have to disagree with this as well.

While an individual +1 or -1 to hit or Armor Class (on monsters) may not have an effect in a specific encounter due to the rounding to maintain the d20 for players, overall, debuffing, to-hit, various tactics, and buffing have a significant effect over the entirety of the dungeon.

For a particular attack, +1 to hit may or may not move you into the next 5% band. Against a different monster in the dungeon, or under slightly different circumstances (you moved into flanking for an additional +2), it might. Taking the entire quest into account, the +1 will make the difference occasionally, increasing your overall damage output.

Many of these bonuses and debuffs are less critical than before, when some characters would be unable to contribute to a fight at all without them, but together they should provide tangible benefits to the damage output of the party as a whole. There's also an interesting twist where AC debuffs (and buffs) are slightly more powerful in general than to-hit.

If we removed the rounding to 5% for players, then every individual +1/-1 to hit and AC would have an effect on player damage output, but then we'd lose the direct tie to the d20, which we're loathe to do. It's quite possible for us to do this, if there's enough call for it. We thought that keeping the d20 with this known behavior was preferable - let us know if we're wrong.

Skipping to-hit buffs like Greater Heroism or Inspire Courage would have dramatically negative effects to your overall damage output as a physical character. Considering the lengths that people are willing to go for an additional +1 damage, I think that it would be bordering foolish to refuse to use buffing and debuffing that increase your overall damage through the duration of the dungeon.

Seriously?

Using the to hit formula of (Attack bonus + 10.5) / (target AC * 2) +.25 if proficient with weapon, rounding to nearest .05

AC     + To Hit  
     50                                       60
30  (50 + 10.5) / (30 * 2) +.25 = 95     30  (60 + 10.5) / (30 * 2) +.25 = 95
35  (50 + 10.5) / (35 * 2) +.25 = 95     35  (60 + 10.5) / (35 * 2) +.25 = 95
40  (50 + 10.5) / (40 * 2) +.25 = 95     40  (60 + 10.5) / (40 * 2) +.25 = 95
45  (50 + 10.5) / (45 * 2) +.25 = 90     45  (60 + 10.5) / (45 * 2) +.25 = 95
50  (50 + 10.5) / (50 * 2) +.25 = 85     50  (60 + 10.5) / (50 * 2) +.25 = 95
55  (50 + 10.5) / (55 * 2) +.25 = 80     55  (60 + 10.5) / (55 * 2) +.25 = 90
60  (50 + 10.5) / (60 * 2) +.25 = 75     60  (60 + 10.5) / (60 * 2) +.25 = 85
65  (50 + 10.5) / (65 * 2) +.25 = 70     65  (60 + 10.5) / (65 * 2) +.25 = 80
70  (50 + 10.5) / (70 * 2) +.25 = 70     70  (60 + 10.5) / (70 * 2) +.25 = 75
75  (50 + 10.5) / (75 * 2) +.25 = 65     75  (60 + 10.5) / (75 * 2) +.25 = 70

If +/- 10 to hit normally results in between a %5 and a %10 difference how do we have meaningful build choices? That's 20 points of strength and it only gives an effective +1 or +2? to hit. It's sickening that you think this doesn't change combat/character building.

[Dandonk]

/sigh

The problems, which are many and serious, with this system has been demonstrated again and again. Still nothing.

We have suggested alternative fixes, still nothing.

Please do not make this another bland generic MMO. Please do not make build and gear semi-pointless.

And please, please... don't throw away some of the last d20 heritage this game has. First dice notation, and now we throw away the dice themselves. Meh.

[Postumus]

The system for AC and to hit needs to be changed to a D100 system. A max AC and to hit needs to be set and never broken or the system will need to be changed again. Work all enhancement, equipment, and weapons to a percentage system or keep with the current one but use a +1 equal to +5% in the coding of the game.

To be clear, this change isn't changing things from a d20 to a d100 system.

It will still have multiple formulas that players won't actually see so a +1 =/= 5% consistently. Sometimes +1 will be 5%, sometime 4%, sometimes 1%, sometimes <1% depending on the level of the character and the AC/level of the monster he is fighting.