Kicked with not chance to explain...

[flynnjsw]

It's not their fault, they were born that way.

Bamboo is bad mmkay

[wax_on_wax_off]

Bamboo is bad mmkay

That's why we smoke it, 'cause we're bad; bad to the bone.

[Gawna]

That's why we smoke it, 'cause we're bad; bad to the bone.

Do you mean bad at building rogues?

[Tap4black]

i think what you are missing is the concept of metagame.

The single attack damage taken at end game is not based on the target having 450 hit points, it is based on the target having 900+. By itself, this would only make the lack -40, but unfortunately that isn't all there is to the equation. What makes those 10 hit points (or -20 for drow or -100 for new drow) desireable is the concept of overhealing and spell cooldowns.

You see, if the incoming damage is 400 and i heal 500 every 6 seconds the character with 900 hit points is never in any danger of dying. However that character with 450 is playing soul stone limbo the entire time. Any and i mean any variation in the healing cadence (curse/interuption/gawna seeing a rat/ etc) means death for that character.

ftfy!

[arkonas]

Um... yes. I myself am a halfling assassin rogue with full sneak attack enhancements. +4 attack and +8 damage per hit makes a huge difference in dps.

If you think I'm "gimping myself" by not spending my AP elsewhere, then you are horribly incorrect. The only boxes I've ever blown were the first few way back in 2008 when my rogue was just made and I was new to DDO.

It's funny i met a rogue who was a tr on argo that couldnt do traps on epic. wow its funny the similarities lol

[samthedagger]

Sadly, rogues, despite the valuable services they can often supply, are usually underestimated. This is because it is a difficult class to master. But there are plenty of examples of good rogues out there. The other day I ran through the Harbinger of Madness chain on elite with a group of four rogues and I was the healer. I only had to worry about one rogue, who was obviously being played by a new player (had a little less than 200 hp at 16th level). We chipped in to buy him some gear, and yes, he died quite a few times, but making mistakes is how people learn not to make them again, so I did not have a problem with it. The other three rogues just killed stuff wicked fast. (BTW this was on Argo, not Khyber.)

Personally, I prefer to create my own LFMs when grouping as a rogue. I rarely find that to create a problem. But I rarely find difficulty getting accepted into groups as a rogue when I do join LFMs.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Really? Personally I'd like to find a way to make my HP as low as possible when I join a party.

cause if I ever get kicked for that, it would save me a lot of trouble instead of having to put up with grouping with the type of person that would kick you for low HP.

I think all /kicks, should be followed immediately by /squelch.
and if everyone else in the gorup would drop and /squelch immediately, I'd bet this sort of thing would go away pretty fast...

[mobrien316]

I have never booted anyone from a party unless they disconnected for a long time.


If someone has low HP for their level, AND they are getting continually killed during a quest, I will probably try to politely offer them some advice. Once they die the first time, no one is getting any more of a penalty if they die fifty more times, so I will usually keep resurrecting them.

If their hit points are so low they are just getting one-shotted by everything we meet, I will just carry their stone along with me after a while.


I have encountered enough players with what seemed like low HP but who knew how to play and were an asset to the party that I think it is just plain stupid to boot people after doing nothing more than looking at their hit points. I suppose there is an extreme that would make me do it, but I haven't encountered that yet.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Do you mean bad at building rogues?

That must be it, any rogue without 500+ HP, no madstone, no ship buff is clearly gimped and should reroll.

[ScarletIncubus]

I have never booted anyone from a party unless they disconnected for a long time.


If someone has low HP for their level, AND they are getting continually killed during a quest, I will probably try to politely offer them some advice. Once they die the first time, no one is getting any more of a penalty if they die fifty more times, so I will usually keep resurrecting them.

If their hit points are so low they are just getting one-shotted by everything we meet, I will just carry their stone along with me after a while.


I have encountered enough players with what seemed like low HP but who knew how to play and were an asset to the party that I think it is just plain stupid to boot people after doing nothing more than looking at their hit points. I suppose there is an extreme that would make me do it, but I haven't encountered that yet.

Mm, at 420 ship buffed hp @ 20 with gear, I pretty much fall into the category. I'll probably never get into an eLoB, but ultimately I'm a DPS melee toon, not a tank; I have treason so I don't pull agro, and I make it my business to learn how not to get hit with attacks when possible.

Generally, people don't have a problem with running with me. I get declined due to not having a decent set of weapons more than I do for HP. At least there's something I can improve.

[Machination]

Ah, you need to go play a human rogue there buddy. Human's make great rogues, they have oodles of skill points, flexible enhancement stat allocation, and one of the best enhancement lines in the game "human adaptability", all applicable to making a very good rogue that can do any trap in the game 1st life (with gear), pure or multi class.

If I see halfling/human rogue, I assume even worse than drow. I saw too many failed boxes by non drow(those can afford high INT even on 1st life). Non drow rogues lack rogue skills, you know this fact.

It is like barb without Kyosho lack pds comparing to barb with Kyosho. Agree? This way non drow rogues really lack inherent rogue skills.

And yes, I'm saying about 1st life.

[Chai]

Its pretty sad that people can cover up questional builds with high HP totals but having lower HP is not acceptable in content we ran at cap 16 with far lower HP than we have nowdays and no epic gear. Someone can build a toon that cant hit water if it fell out of a boat, but hey, it has 600+ HP, it will be easy to keep alive while it does mediocre DPS due to constantly missing attacks and when it does hit, not having the strength to do more damage.

A few days ago I watched a 172 HP level 15 rogue do the swim in elite crucible. The people who were all making fun of his HP total in the beginning of the quest were soulstones roughly halfway to the room they needed to get to. He died zero times the entire quest while the 400+ HP club members did not have a similar showing, dying at least once each, and some more than that. He also contributed decent DPS - wasnt standing back and avoiding death by not participating.

Yes, players should work to get decent HP totals, but it becomes a game of diminishing returns real quick after the "standard gear" is used - GFL, +6 con item, minos, etc. People should build a shroud HP item for their toons. This doesnt mean they suck as a player.

Ive always said if you want to get into any group or raid, play a barbarian. Most group leaders mistakenly look at HP totals as an absolute indication of skill, and even if you build a barbarian completely wrong, the huge HP total will cover up any build disparity that may exist. Cant hit high damage numbers? It doesnt matter. You have 800+ HP. They think youre uber.

[ResEvil6370]

I think with the barb example its more that, pure and simply - it's a hard class to completely mess up - the general barb is more competent than the general rogue or ranger or pally sheerly because its easier to get right.

At end game in particular a ton of stuff has cleave dmg - most raids having something with a 360 degree atk range, so despite awesome playstyle or amazing AC, toons with lower hp are gonna find it tougher or make it more difficult on the healers.

The combination of these 2 mean the classes in question get less love from group leaders - not because they're less capable but more due to them carrying a higher risk factor of being troublesome than the more 'solid' and easier to mess up classes.

Least thats how i look at it if i'm ever throwing a group together.

And I don't believe saying you can get any trap in the game is an excuse of any sort - it's expected of the class - every rogue really should be capable of traps at the level they are at.

[Beer_Dude]

Its pretty sad that people can cover up questional builds with high HP totals but having lower HP is not acceptable in content we ran at cap 16 with far lower HP than we have nowdays and no epic gear. Someone can build a toon that cant hit water if it fell out of a boat, but hey, it has 600+ HP, it will be easy to keep alive while it does mediocre DPS due to constantly missing attacks and when it does hit, not having the strength to do more damage.

A few days ago I watched a 172 HP level 15 rogue do the swim in elite crucible. The people who were all making fun of his HP total in the beginning of the quest were soulstones roughly halfway to the room they needed to get to. He died zero times the entire quest while the 400+ HP club members did not have a similar showing, dying at least once each, and some more than that. He also contributed decent DPS - wasnt standing back and avoiding death by not participating.

Yes, players should work to get decent HP totals, but it becomes a game of diminishing returns real quick after the "standard gear" is used - GFL, +6 con item, minos, etc. People should build a shroud HP item for their toons. This doesnt mean they suck as a player.

Ive always said if you want to get into any group or raid, play a barbarian. Most group leaders mistakenly look at HP totals as an absolute indication of skill, and even if you build a barbarian completely wrong, the huge HP total will cover up any build disparity that may exist. Cant hit high damage numbers? It doesnt matter. You have 800+ HP. They think youre uber.

Well put. I couldn't agree more. It kills me when you see these high HP barbarians and at the end of the quest they have the fewest kills of the melees by more than 50%. It would be different if they were taking on a tank role and holding agro but they're not. They're in there hacking away and not making much progress. But according to the majority of these PUG party leaders you have to have a barbarian to do DPS. And the group will most likely fail without one.

[jydog100]

Its pretty sad that people can cover up questional builds with high HP totals

Haha, no doubt. I've seen quite a few fighter types lately with 3X, 4X even 5X or more toughness feats. tons of hp but no clue. couldnt fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

Stereotype will always be around in this game. just the way it is. Reputation is more important than any stat or gear to me. good player = good player, doesnt matter what build or gear. You get a name as a sponge or a bad attitude or DB its hard to shake free of it.

Learn the game, play it as best you can and have fun. Scr3w everything else.

[Blank_Zero]

something something something

All I hear is

[AirbornedChild]

That must be it, any rogue without 500+ HP, no madstone, no ship buff is clearly gimped and should reroll.

Ok, you advice to take 16 CON always. But 2 races cannot do this. Well, there are many nice drow/elf players. You aren't correct.

Obviously I can't mention names but I'm certain you can all figure out who I'm talking about. Listening to this guy go on about rogues and bards and every other class as if he is the know all end all authority on DDO. Reminds me of some dude running around on a barbarian tooting his own horn on how great he is. The only difference is that barb with the axe does actually know how to play a barb and is actually right more than he is wrong when he posts unlike our bard/rogue expert here.

I answered to post where dude said that he will decline any drow rogue. I don't think that just saying about ANY drow rogue is nice.

Thread about bard and Extend is growing. Some people said that they never take it, some people said that this feat is must. Who is right? It is my choice.

Remind me what i said about rouge? The thing that their rogue skills are better only because they are elves and have more base INT. I didn't say anything about dps. I said only about skills. Next time quote my post as argument.

At last, I didn't say anything about other class. If I did it - quote my post. I remember: I said only about rogue/drow and bard. You failed, green aberration.

Well put. I couldn't agree more. It kills me when you see these high HP barbarians and at the end of the quest they have the fewest kills of the melees by more than 50%. It would be different if they were taking on a tank role and holding agro but they're not. They're in there hacking away and not making much progress. But according to the majority of these PUG party leaders you have to have a barbarian to do DPS. And the group will most likely fail without one.

I prefer to have sorcs and PMs in party with one(or two) tank. DPS is much better.

Ah, you need to go play a human rogue there buddy. Human's make great rogues, they have oodles of skill points, flexible enhancement stat allocation, and one of the best enhancement lines in the game "human adaptability", all applicable to making a very good rogue that can do any trap in the game 1st life (with gear), pure or multi class.

You like human because it is your favorite race. But it is not mine. I don't think you want to see whole game of human rogues, human clerics, human FvS, horc/WF barbs. All races have their benefits.

PS But human/dwarf is best for making tank, I know.

[AirbornedChild]

Um... yes. I myself am a halfling assassin rogue with full sneak attack enhancements. +4 attack and +8 damage per hit makes a huge difference in dps.

If you think I'm "gimping myself" by not spending my AP elsewhere, then you are horribly incorrect. The only boxes I've ever blown were the first few way back in 2008 when my rogue was just made and I was new to DDO.

Do you really think that +2 SA damage is worth of 4 AP. Many people do not think as you do. Tier III - yes. Tier IV - too expensive.

[kazeikan]

Wdf man you have no chain of thought. This is not a language issue.

[flynnjsw]

Wdf man you have no chain of thought. This is not a language issue.

It's a Russian bamboo issue.