with the new feat changes, free up completionist already!

[sephiroth1084]

i hate that system
makes character building ********

How so?

I think Pathfinder is a huge improvement over D&D 3.5. Everyone gets more, and more interesting, build options, with choices made more relevant, and character growth better established.

[quijenoth]

Pathfinder is a spinoff by Paizo based on 3.0 ruleset that mimics 3.5 in some ways..
Pathfinder is interesting but soo much different that it is not even relevent to the topic.
DDO is no where close to being able to encompass the pathfinder differences..6 more classes, mounts, combat manouvers...

So wrong!

Pathfinder is essentially 3.75 and its entirely based off of 3.5 not 3.0 - it uses 3.5 skills (with some minor reduction in overall skills by combining some of them) 3.5 spells, 3.5 classes (with filled in dead levels) and even racial weapon familiarities which is 3.5

Don't believe me - have a read here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20030718a

Pathfinder is different in some ways but what it does different is actually already being applied into DDO in some cases.

Take for example stealth, in DDO you make a stealth check which is a combined move silently and hide, a monster makes both a listen and spot to detect you. in PnP you use hide to remain concealed and move silently to move without being heard. each works against either listen OR spot if your stationary you only need to hide, if your behind cover you only need move silently. Pathfinder decided two skills for very similar effects was unnecessary and so created stealth and perception. some like it some don't. DDO mimics Pathfinders decision by making both rolls regardless.

Another example is combat manoeuvers and compare it to dwarven/warforge/fighter tactic enhancements. you know have a single way of improving all of your combat tactics where as in D&D 3.4 you could only improve your trip, sunder or grapple exclusively. yes the mechanics with CMD/CMB is different but it makes monks a hell of a lot more viable

Pathfinder also has a similar stat inflation to DDO (although not as extreme) with +2 net gain on all racial stats (including human and half-elf) and magic items enhancing multiple stats....Belt of Physical Perfection

6 More classes and mounts you say? According to the Core Ruleboook Pathfinder has the following Core Classes

Core Classes
Barbarian
Bard
Cleric
Druid
Fighter
Monk
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Sorcerer
Wizard

You may be refering to the new Base Classes present in the Advanced Players Guide and other source books but then if we are going down that road lets look at all the base classes in 3.5 still missing from DDO from the Complete Series of books, PHB 2, Eberron Campaign Setting and many other splat books!!! to date we only have 2 non-core classes, Favored Soul and Artificer.

And last I recall paladins had mounts since 1st edition...


And as for Pathfinder being ********, I challenge you to make a 20th level rogue6/wizard6/rogue3/wizard3/cleric2 character with 14 intelligence in both 3.5 and Pathfinder. And tell me which one has an easier time assigning skill points.

[Thrudh]

Yes, part of the game revolves around character planning, but it also relies on different systems for this. Spells are separate from feats are separate from skills are separate from enhancements. Past lives shouldn't have been made into feats, because they added a separate system, with completely separate parameters to an already over-taxed system.

My point is that Completionists shouldn't feel forced into a smaller subset of possible builds just because the ability they worked so long and hard for is a feat that most characters can't fit. Other than the fact that it was made a feat first, can you present an argument for why it should be a feat?
The problem with that logic si that not all class abilities are worth a feat, and fighters do gain class features now in the form of enhancements. Sure, everybody gets them, but they remove some of that issue. And limiting feats feels more penalizing to everyone than it does beneficial to those that have them. In PnP, where these designs come from, characters were mostly picking up prestige classes for their power, and there was little reason to stay in a particular class for very long, so for many characters, splashing for a feat was very much worthwhile.

In DDO, we have BIG draws to going pure, or mostly pure, and splashing for feats becomes less and less attractive with every update.

It would be better to add unique class features to the classes currently using feats to give them power, and to then give other classes some bonus feats. Part of the problem on the fighter side of things especially is that feats don't scale very well with level, so while some other class is getting a class ability suitable to a level 15 or 20 character, fighters are still selecting feats from level 1-6 for the most part, or small upgrades to feats from those levels. This is a little less true for wizards, only because metamagics become more useful when you have higher levels of spells and more spell points/slots to play with.

If you were to take away a fighter's enhancements and compare them to a ranger without enhancements, the ranger wins for power. They are close to barbarians. They are probably weaker in DDO than paladins. If you take away wizard and sorcerer enhancements and compare them, wizards probably end up stronger than sorcerers with more spell options, better DCs, the same damage per spell, and not too many fewer spell points after Improved Mental Toughness. Feats aren't a very good balancing tool.

Fighters make up for their lack of class features in their enhancements. Much of the power of non-spellcasters comes from enhancements. Heck, even a lot of a spellcaster's power comes from AP.

You make good points....

You're probably right... Past lifes probably should have had their own system instead of being shoe-horned into the feat system.

[SableShadow]

You make good points....

You're probably right... Past lifes probably should have had their own system instead of being shoe-horned into the feat system.

They wore yah down, eh?

[Cetus]

....

With this massive explosion of new enhancements, epic destiny's, levels, gear etc... The original endgame completionist build I had in mind may no longer be the same build I'd like to pursue. If I decide to switch builds in order to conform into these aforementioned changes, how can I just not pick up the completionist feat if I can't fit it in? Its so much work...and mind you...I personally did this work before bravery/tomes/30% xp pots were out too. It was an enormous grind, and just psychologicaly stinks to not take it if you have it.

Problem is: I agree with you completely that builds need to be planned around the feat, however these monumental changes alter the landscape of what builds people want to continue to pursue.

[MaximumCharisma]

With this massive explosion of new enhancements, epic destiny's, levels, gear etc... The original endgame completionist build I had in mind may no longer be the same build I'd like to pursue. If I decide to switch builds in order to conform into these aforementioned changes, how can I just not pick up the completionist feat if I can't fit it in? Its so much work...and mind you...I personally did this work before bravery/tomes/30% xp pots were out too. It was an enormous grind, and just psychologicaly stinks to not take it if you have it.

Problem is: I agree with you completely that builds need to be planned around the feat, however these monumental changes alter the landscape of what builds people want to continue to pursue.

It is actually for that reason that I had suggested a while back to split the feat into a passive and active part. I am in agreement with eladrin about the power of completionist feat and don't think that as it stands it should be free. But I think I understand how annyoing it would be have to really choose between feats in order to have the benefits of having put in that much play toward it.

I take it the completionists think the Pixel taller and gold aura suggestion I also threw in there is sorta like being given a creature companion for completionist eh?

[karpedieme]

To the OP +1 and

/signed

It has been the topic of many threads and to have the destinies now and coming new trees it makes sense more than ever.

I think overall it will give a better versatily /selection to the general class choice for completionist final build.

Here is why.....

Feat starved class completionist builds who choose to remain pure 20... Rogues / Bard / Pally / ranger especially are greatly penalized by feat restrictions.

Seriously to those who can stomach the grind, muscle through the many past lives deserve some form of passive reckognition

Completionist is not for all indeed. But for those that choose to go for it should have the comfort of selecting ANY class they choose and not be dictated by feat starvation.

[SardaofChaos]

I don't understand all this talk of it being overpowered. If you have it, you've been through 13 lives at minimum. You deserve to be more powerful than the rest. It's not like there's meaningful pvp that everyone needs to be equally powered.

I'd hazard a guess that everyone who has it would agree that it should not take up a normal feat slot (personally I like the 'completionist or active past life' slot idea), and furthermore that everyone against it has an exaggerated idea of just how quickly the average person can take a character through 20 levels.

[Xaxx]

even though I'm pretty sure they will never even consider doing it...

/signed....

/signed from the moment they release completionist.. and the ONLY way i'll ever bother with completionist... its simply not worth the work you have to put into it to spend a feat for it

[JOTMON]

So wrong!

Pathfinder is essentially 3.75 and its entirely based off of 3.5 not 3.0 - it uses 3.5 skills (with some minor reduction in overall skills by combining some of them) 3.5 spells, 3.5 classes (with filled in dead levels) and even racial weapon familiarities which is 3.5

Pathfinder is a variation that Bulmahn came up with when he didnt like how 3.5 was working and hated version 4 so they reworked their own version of 3.5 ... so I will give you that one. it is more a variation and evolution of their version of how 3.5 should have worked.

You may be refering to the new Base Classes present in the Advanced Players Guide and other source books but then if we are going down that road lets look at all the base classes in 3.5 still missing from DDO from the Complete Series of books, PHB 2, Eberron Campaign Setting and many other splat books!!! to date we only have 2 non-core classes, Favored Soul and Artificer.

Still doesnt help, more classes to be introduced at some point just means more TR's for completionists to have to do since completionists lose their status as soon as a new class is released, which means a forced Feat respec everytime.



baby steps....I dont think DDO could handle what pathfinder encompasses, its tough enough just getting the starter pack of Epic Destinies we are supposed to see live in a couple weeks.

They wore yah down, eh?

Come to the light Brenna.......

[Rodasch]

/signed. completionist really should be an automatic passive feat, just like the other passive past life feats.

[quijenoth]

When I was refering to Pathfinder I was actually only thinking about the extra feats on level progression - it equates to an extra 4 feats at 20th level for EVERY character. With more feats being added and more options to the players, an extra 4 feats would not break the game and add a little more variety to builds.

Still doesnt help, more classes to be introduced at some point just means more TR's for completionists to have to do since completionists lose their status as soon as a new class is released, which means a forced Feat respec everytime.

You maybe right on this but thats how its been since DDO introduced the completionist feat and TRs. There are over 50 base classes in D&D from WotC source material not including variants/NPC classes or Racial substitutions. From the Scout, Samurai, Warmage, Soulknife, and Favored Soul in the complete series to Marshals, Artificers, Hexblades, and Knights from other books.

Perhaps its time to re-write the Completionist feat - Now that we have all 11 Core Classes I think the Completionist feat should only include those classes - I.E. Drop Artificer and Favored Soul from the requirements. This prevents any new classes adding to the pain of completionists.

You could then include a new feat (or enhancements) that adds the Base Classes to that feat in some way - say +1 effective divine caster level for Favored soul as a past life.

[Crazyfruit]

I don't think it should be changed at all. It's just a silly feat with small bonuses, not something people should consider a real goal with large benefits... or work for hundreds of hours towards... please visit my signature if you feel otherwise.

I've met many players who turned into nutcases thinking of it as a goal. Here's one. Those I knew all quit the game or went on extended breaks once they tried a typical "TR grind". I hope none of the staff at Turbine would actually want to encourage that kind of behavior.

Personally I'm at 9/12 on my character with several class repeats (whose past lives are useless). I don't enjoy DDO's endgame or raiding so I kill myself immediately after hitting 20 - though that will change come MOTU & spending some time at cap for fun. No interest at all in doing the others for Completionist. As a non-free feat I'd only take it on like 4 classes who get tons of feats (due to PrE reqs/etc for others). As a free feat I wouldn't want it because after that many lives and with all that loot it'd make the game even easier - aka more boring.

All of the other passive ones are such minor bonuses that it doesn't really effect anything, other than maybe giving you free feats on the caster ones if you would've taken Spell Penetration.

[Elceleb]

/signed

[acrone]

Whit new PrF on the new expansion on my barb i can't buy complationist feat,for how is the game now yes,becouse i just need switch thoughnes or barbarian past life active feat,after expansion not,becouse i need buy some PrF.So on my opinion it's absolutly good have a free passive feat the completionist like other passive past life feat,i don't undertund why many people says it's OP,if is a feat that for a large part of build can not be trainable.

In other terms for people don't like hear,if i take completionist feat on my barbarian20 i nerf my build whit the MotU expansion,in my opinion is not right to have done 12+1druid past life,and not at least be able to put a feat that I have earned with great effort.

sorry my english

[SardaofChaos]

I don't think it should be changed at all. It's just a silly feat with small bonuses, not something people should consider a real goal with large benefits... or work for hundreds of hours towards... please visit my signature if you feel otherwise.

I've met many players who turned into nutcases thinking of it as a goal. Here's one. Those I knew all quit the game or went on extended breaks once they tried a typical "TR grind". I hope none of the staff at Turbine would actually want to encourage that kind of behavior.

Personally I'm at 9/12 on my character with several class repeats (whose past lives are useless). I don't enjoy DDO's endgame or raiding so I kill myself immediately after hitting 20 - though that will change come MOTU & spending some time at cap for fun. No interest at all in doing the others for Completionist. As a non-free feat I'd only take it on like 4 classes who get tons of feats (due to PrE reqs/etc for others). As a free feat I wouldn't want it because after that many lives and with all that loot it'd make the game even easier - aka more boring.

All of the other passive ones are such minor bonuses that it doesn't really effect anything, other than maybe giving you free feats on the caster ones if you would've taken Spell Penetration.

Don't think you have room to talk, mister 1.5 posts per day.

Also, if you feel getting it free would make the game too boring, then take useless feats like skill focus: swim instead of toughness. Make your own challenge instead of asking for it to be forced on everyone.

[Sarnind]

Whit new PrF on the new expansion on my barb i can't buy complationist feat,for how is the game now yes,becouse i just need switch thoughnes or barbarian past life active feat,after expansion not,becouse i need buy some PrF.So on my opinion it's absolutly good have a free passive feat the completionist like other passive past life feat,i don't undertund why many people says it's OP,if is a feat that for a large part of build can not be trainable.

In other terms for people don't like hear,if i take completionist feat on my barbarian20 i nerf my build whit the MotU expansion,in my opinion is not right to have done 12+1druid past life,and not at least be able to put a feat that I have earned with great effort.

sorry my english

this is a lost battle my dear friend, the devs play with champion class, what can you expect?

[Elceleb]

Seems Devs dont care about this post. Probably they dont care about time/money that ppl spent to reach feat. With new feat system completionist will be unviable for some build.. sorry, that's unfair. Pls, make it a passive feat..

[Jarel_Lonewolf]

Considered the HUGE effort and cost in terms of time required by being a completionist in this game, the Completionist feat should be given FOR FREE. Not only that, but just like the stat bonus from tomes, the stat bonus from such feat should be usable as stat requirement for other feats (like Dodge, Combat Expertise etc.). Having to buy the Completionist feat with a slot is an insult to all the pain and dedication that players are giving to the game.
Just my two cents.

[stEel_one]

Considered the HUGE effort and cost in terms of time required by being a completionist in this game, the Completionist feat should be given FOR FREE. Not only that, but just like the stat bonus from tomes, the stat bonus from such feat should be usable as stat requirement for other feats (like Dodge, Combat Expertise etc.). Having to buy the Completionist feat with a slot is an insult to all the pain and dedication that players are giving to the game.
Just my two cents.

Agree 100%, plus in my opinion, considering the "inhuman" amount of xp needed for the completionist (at least about 53 MILION), isnt a matter of overpowering or unbalancing a toon, but a A DUE REWARD for the huge sacrifices needed to achieve it.

IMo all who think that completionist should not be TOTALLY FREE are only jealous, like Esopo's Fox&Grapes.