with the new feat changes, free up completionist already!

[Cetus]

Dude ... srsly.

what?

[Ganak]

Completionist should be like an auto past life feat. Such a very small percentage of players get it. Why not?

OP < Rewarding that grinding



To put it another way, if you are a completionist you have probably spent HIGH RL$ in the turbine store, speculatively significant revenue.

Who would be opposed?

[quijenoth]

/nosigned...

However I personally think its time to embrace the pathfinder system and increase feats to every odd level!

[Weyborn]

yes please make a free feat

not saying those that do not have completionist are not dedicated players (they may have 10 36 point builds played regularly )

but I can say that a completionist certainly has weathered through the years of minimal xp and most likely spent a lot of real coin, as I have so far, In working towards that completionist goal

yes yes yes - please

[Thrudh]

No real build has gamebreaking results from every stat getting bumped up a modifier.

Heh, then why do you guys work so hard to get completionist if the feat sucks so much?

It's +1 DC to all spells, 20 hps (basically an extra toughness feat), +1 to all saves, +1 to hit/damage, +3 to all skills, +1 to combat tactics

That's a pretty freaking awesome feat.

[sephiroth1084]

Heh, then why do you guys work so hard to get completionist if the feat sucks so much?

It's +1 DC to all spells, 20 hps (basically an extra toughness feat), +1 to all saves, +1 to hit/damage, +3 to all skills

Because they are completionists, DUH!

[Thrudh]

Most of those bonuses are marginal: +1 skill check isn't going to break any character.

It's +3 to all skills

[Thrudh]

Everyone gets:

• 20 hps is an extra toughness feat
• +3 to all skills is equal to ALL Skill Focus feats combined
• +1 to all saves is equal to the Luck of the Hero feat

Casters get:

• +1 DCs to ALL spell schools is huge, that's equal to 7 feats (normal spell focus feats only give +1 to a single school)
• You may only care about 2-3 schools, but still equal to 2-3 feats.

Melee get:

• +1 to hit/damage (don't tell me you powergamers don't want every single +1 you can get)
• +1 Combat DCs
• Possibly more AC

I do agree it's unfair that feat-starved classes can't use this feat (or other PL active feats) easily. But I don't think it should be free... Maybe cost APs (but then there are AP-starved classes).

Maybe use an equipment slot? (heh, I kid I kid)

It's a feat like any other feat. You have to make a choice if it's worth it to you. If GTHF is a better choice for a barbarian than completionist, then the barb should pick GTHF... If there are 9 other feats better for a pure barbian than completionist, than a barbarian probably shouldn't go for completionist. Different classes get more or less feats for a reason. It's part of the balance.

You guys are all expert at evaluating the trade-offs of different build choices. You knew how completionist worked before you started down that path.

It should not be free. It's too strong for that. In almost all cases, it's worth a feat slot. Fit it in. Or not. Just like every other feat. Make a choice.

[Cyr]

Heh, then why do you guys work so hard to get completionist if the feat sucks so much?

It's +1 DC to all spells, 20 hps (basically an extra toughness feat), +1 to all saves, +1 to hit/damage, +3 to all skills, +1 to combat tactics

That's a pretty freaking awesome feat.

That's nice. Let's actually talk about where this feat is useful though because that is how the game works, you don't really care AT ALL about most of those things on a particular build.

So let's take a DC caster (it's a wizard because OW feat slots become more of an issue)...

• +1 DCs
• +3 Concentration
• +20 HP
• -1 Feat Slot
• Few more SP from higher base casting stat
• +1 to All Saves

Not so bad I agree. However, instead the same person could have done 2 Barb lives, 2 Wizard lives, and 2 FvS Lives. (They cut out monk, fighter, rogue, ranger, pali, cleric (this build does not care about that school) NOTE: they also could cut druid/artificer/bard for three less times around the treadmill). They would have the same hp bump, +6 Spell Pen (which is frankly more powerful), some SP bump from FvS. For that they lost no feat slot so they can throw a feat into the Focus they actually care about (it's usually necro/enchant with one so high it is irrelevant in most cases). They also saved two more feat slots for spell pen feats and 6 AP. The second build is actually alot better off then the first one.

Every incentive is about what could be done instead. In this case, well a player could just plain get more effective PL for their build.

Let's take another build now...we will say fighter (because a pali, rogue, barb...they all are so tight on feats that the slot is a major sacrifice)...

• +20 HP
• +1 to hit
• +1 tactic DCs
• +1 damage
• +1 to all saves

Not bad at all, but those skills yeah the fighter could care less...maybe intim IF they are a tank build. So instead of leveling up an artificer, ranger, druid, cleric, bard, FvS, wizard, sorc they go 2 barb, 2 fighter, 2 monk, 1 Rogue more for equal lives. You will note that the past lives grant almost nothing for the a melee fighter that are given up. They end up with the same HP, +2 to hit, +2 tactics DC, +2 damage, +1 sneak attack damage, one more feat slot, and one less to saves (luck of heroes if they really wanted for equal).

Jeez, that second one is a complete no brainer.

[JOTMON]

I do agree it's unfair that feat-starved classes can't use this feat (or other PL active feats) easily. But I don't think it should be free... Maybe cost APs (but then there are AP-starved classes).
~
It should not be free. It's too strong for that. In almost all cases, it's worth a feat slot. Fit it in. Or not. Just like every other feat. Make a choice.

ITs not even really free, Grinding to completionist takes time and resources, 260+epic tokens and/or DDO store points, XP pots(turn-ins or DDO Store) access to all classess (Favour, VIP,DDO Store), Bank space, more bank space(DDO Store)... Turbine is profiting from those thant grind out completionists.

It is an achievement to get to completionist and yet a feat has to be spent to get the benefit of completionist, a forced respec happens anytime a new class is released.

it is worthwile farming as the Completionist does offer a great benefit, but ultimately it forces a feat sacrafice choice that really shouldnt have to be made. All classes are not feat balanced, AP is not a choice either as many classes are AP challenged as well.

It should be Freely granted for the achievement.

It is like farming out silver-flame favor for the pots and finding out that you have to spend a feat to be able to drink those pots and if any new Silver flame quests come out you have to re-run all the favor again... twice...

[Vordax]

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

So what percentage of DDO characters can actually take this feat? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? Seriously, its not overpowered because hardly anyone can actually take it. I always figured it not being free was a bug that would be fixed one day (tech limitations or some thing).

Between the bait and switch tactics for the wail nerf and this response, my respect for you has dropped several notches. At least answer the question on whether the copy and paste of implosion to wail will still have implosions bugs.

[Thrudh]

That's nice. Let's actually talk about where this feat is useful though because that is how the game works, you don't really care AT ALL about most of those things on a particular build.

So let's take a DC caster (it's a wizard because OW feat slots become more of an issue)...

• +1 DCs
• +3 Concentration
• +20 HP
• -1 Feat Slot
• Few more SP from higher base casting stat
• +1 to All Saves

Not so bad I agree. However, instead the same person could have done 2 Barb lives, 2 Wizard lives, and 2 FvS Lives. (They cut out monk, fighter, rogue, ranger, pali, cleric (this build does not care about that school) NOTE: they also could cut druid/artificer/bard for three less times around the treadmill). They would have the same hp bump, +6 Spell Pen (which is frankly more powerful), some SP bump from FvS. For that they lost no feat slot so they can throw a feat into the Focus they actually care about (it's usually necro/enchant with one so high it is irrelevant in most cases). They also saved two more feat slots for spell pen feats and 6 AP. The second build is actually alot better off then the first one.

Every incentive is about what could be done instead. In this case, well a player could just plain get more effective PL for their build.

Let's take another build now...we will say fighter (because a pali, rogue, barb...they all are so tight on feats that the slot is a major sacrifice)...

• +20 HP
• +1 to hit
• +1 tactic DCs
• +1 damage
• +1 to all saves

Not bad at all, but those skills yeah the fighter could care less...maybe intim IF they are a tank build. So instead of leveling up an artificer, ranger, druid, cleric, bard, FvS, wizard, sorc they go 2 barb, 2 fighter, 2 monk, 1 Rogue more for equal lives. You will note that the past lives grant almost nothing for the a melee fighter that are given up. They end up with the same HP, +2 to hit, +2 tactics DC, +2 damage, +1 sneak attack damage, one more feat slot, and one less to saves (luck of heroes if they really wanted for equal).

Jeez, that second one is a complete no brainer.

Yep, I agree with your analysis... which is why I would never go for completionist. Hitting 7 or so caster lives for your caster and 7 or so melee lives for melee pays off a lot better than completionist.

And people KNEW this before they started down the completionist path.

It's still one heck of a single feat, and (this is important) people can get it AND all those extra past lives you posted above. So you have to look at its power alone, not in comparison with those other past live feats.

[Thrudh]

ITs not even really free, Grinding to completionist takes time and resources, 260+epic tokens and/or DDO store points, XP pots(turn-ins or DDO Store) access to all classess (Favour, VIP,DDO Store), Bank space, more bank space(DDO Store)... Turbine is profiting from those thant grind out completionists.

It is an achievement to get to completionist and yet a feat has to be spent to get the benefit of completionist, a forced respec happens anytime a new class is released.

it is worthwile farming as the Completionist does offer a great benefit, but ultimately it forces a feat sacrafice choice that really shouldnt have to be made. All classes are not feat balanced, AP is not a choice either as many classes are AP challenged as well.

It should be Freely granted for the achievement.

It is like farming out silver-flame favor for the pots and finding out that you have to spend a feat to be able to drink those pots and if any new Silver flame quests come out you have to re-run all the favor again... twice...

You could make the same argument for ALL the active past-life feats... All of them have to be taken to get any benefit, and feat-starved builds have a harder time fitting them in.

Should all active past-life feats also be granted freely?

[Thrudh]

So what percentage of DDO characters can actually take this feat? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? Seriously, its not overpowered because hardly anyone can actually take it.

I don't get that logic. Something can be overpowered even if only 1 person gets it. It doesn't matter how many people can get it (and besides those people are the last people in the game who need a free bonus - they are already way ahead in power over the other 99.999%)

[JOTMON]

You could make the same argument for ALL the active past-life feats... All of them have to be taken to get any benefit, and feat-starved builds have a harder time fitting them in.

Should all active past-life feats also be granted freely?

Not really, Completionist is a great generalist benefit for farming out 13+lives, but not all the perks benefit all the classes.
A FVS/cleric has no need for any extra skill points, non-combat versions dont even need the DC's..
A rogue may(or not.. many rogues are skill point maxxed) benefit from a some of the skill points, but has no use for caster + DC's and struggles with the feat cost.
A paladin would benefit greatly from completionist as they rely on more than 2 stats and yet are one of the most feat starved classes, what do they give up.. shield mastery.. toughness.. or splash and lose capstone.

Individual past life feats offer specific benefits to the past life being taken, almost all the active past life feats are worthless to any specific build, the ones chosen give specific benefits to the build and would replace a feat... like Wiz greater spell pen replaced by wiz active past life +1 to DC's is comperable upgrade.
Barbarian active past life qualifies for toughness enhancements so you could trade up toughness feat.

On a feat starved class a feat progression or PRE chain is likely broken to take Completionist, or that build has to splash to a feat rich class like Monk/Fighter losing capstone to take the feat.

So what percentage of DDO characters can actually take this feat? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? Seriously, its not overpowered because hardly anyone can actually take it. I always figured it not being free was a bug that would be fixed one day (tech limitations or some thing).

Between the bait and switch tactics for the wail nerf and this response, my respect for you has dropped several notches. At least answer the question on whether the copy and paste of implosion to wail will still have implosions bugs.

Besides the attempt to derail the thread with a caster nerf complaint......
The % doesnt really matter.. the game 3 years from now if it is still going will have more completionists....
There is not a time limit on how long you take to get it.

/nosigned...

However I personally think its time to embrace the pathfinder system and increase feats to every odd level!

Pathfinder is a spinoff by Paizo based on 3.0 ruleset that mimics 3.5 in some ways..
Pathfinder is interesting but soo much different that it is not even relevent to the topic.
DDO is no where close to being able to encompass the pathfinder differences..6 more classes, mounts, combat manouvers...

[sephiroth1084]

You could make the same argument for ALL the active past-life feats... All of them have to be taken to get any benefit, and feat-starved builds have a harder time fitting them in.

Should all active past-life feats also be granted freely?

Kind of.

I find it highly inappropriate for half (or more) of the payoff that comes from the effort of TRing a character to be tied up in another mechanic (feats) that differs significantly from one character to the next.

I'd prefer for all PL feats to just get wrapped up with the passives and auto-granted, but the "feat" portion would only be given once, or give all TR'ed characters a bonus feat slot at level 3 that can only hold a PL feat or Completionist. I think the latter is a reasonable solution, but still suffers from the same problem, albeit less so. Fighters, wizards, artificers and monks (and to a lesser extend, rangers, especially if their feat prereqs get lessened with the enhancement update) can fit multiple past life feats and/or Completionist more easily than anyone else, but at least the rest of the characters can fit some of their PL feats.

Completionist takes too much effort to be something only certain characters can pick up easily once they've unlocked it.

It would be like if the number of AP we received via the enhancement system was different from one class to the next based on the number of feats that class gained. It makes some sense, but it would have been very unfair. Past Lives are a different system, but got tied to feats, which is already a somewhat unbalanced and limited system--it didn't need more being tied to it.

[Thrudh]

Completionist takes too much effort to be something only certain characters can pick up easily once they've unlocked it.

But to play devil's advocate... a big part of character planning is accounting for limitations like feat slots.

There's a lot of feats that only certain characters can pick up easily.

Anyone going for completionist should have an end-build in mind, and they can decide AHEAD OF TIME if they're going to have enough feats. Splashing for extra feat slots is a big part of many builds, why not a completionist build?

Past Lives are a different system, but got tied to feats, which is already a somewhat unbalanced and limited system--it didn't need more being tied to it.

Are feats an unbalanced system? Fighters get a ton of feats because they don't get innate powers like rage or spells or LoH or smites, etc.

Wizards get a ton of feats because they cast slower, and get less SP than sorcs

Extra feat slots are used to balance out the classes.

[Cyr]

But to play devil's advocate... a big part of character planning is accounting for limitations like feat slots.

There's a lot of feats that only certain characters can pick up easily.

Anyone going for completionist should have an end-build in mind, and they can decide AHEAD OF TIME if they're going to have enough feats. Splashing for extra feat slots is a big part of many builds, why not a completionist build?
.

I call nonsense on this one.

Completionist is a very time consuming path to take. So time consuming that by the end of the road the builds have often changed...perhaps multiple times.

[Jay203]

/nosigned...

However I personally think its time to embrace the pathfinder system and increase feats to every odd level!

i hate that system
makes character building ********

[sephiroth1084]

But to play devil's advocate... a big part of character planning is accounting for limitations like feat slots.

There's a lot of feats that only certain characters can pick up easily.

Anyone going for completionist should have an end-build in mind, and they can decide AHEAD OF TIME if they're going to have enough feats. Splashing for extra feat slots is a big part of many builds, why not a completionist build?

Yes, part of the game revolves around character planning, but it also relies on different systems for this. Spells are separate from feats are separate from skills are separate from enhancements. Past lives shouldn't have been made into feats, because they added a separate system, with completely separate parameters to an already over-taxed system.

My point is that Completionists shouldn't feel forced into a smaller subset of possible builds just because the ability they worked so long and hard for is a feat that most characters can't fit. Other than the fact that it was made a feat first, can you present an argument for why it should be a feat?

Are feats an unbalanced system? Fighters get a ton of feats because they don't get innate powers like rage or spells or LoH or smites, etc.

The problem with that logic si that not all class abilities are worth a feat, and fighters do gain class features now in the form of enhancements. Sure, everybody gets them, but they remove some of that issue. And limiting feats feels more penalizing to everyone than it does beneficial to those that have them. In PnP, where these designs come from, characters were mostly picking up prestige classes for their power, and there was little reason to stay in a particular class for very long, so for many characters, splashing for a feat was very much worthwhile.

In DDO, we have BIG draws to going pure, or mostly pure, and splashing for feats becomes less and less attractive with every update.

Extra feat slots are used to balance out the classes.

It would be better to add unique class features to the classes currently using feats to give them power, and to then give other classes some bonus feats. Part of the problem on the fighter side of things especially is that feats don't scale very well with level, so while some other class is getting a class ability suitable to a level 15 or 20 character, fighters are still selecting feats from level 1-6 for the most part, or small upgrades to feats from those levels. This is a little less true for wizards, only because metamagics become more useful when you have higher levels of spells and more spell points/slots to play with.

If you were to take away a fighter's enhancements and compare them to a ranger without enhancements, the ranger wins for power. They are close to barbarians. They are probably weaker in DDO than paladins. If you take away wizard and sorcerer enhancements and compare them, wizards probably end up stronger than sorcerers with more spell options, better DCs, the same damage per spell, and not too many fewer spell points after Improved Mental Toughness. Feats aren't a very good balancing tool.

Fighters make up for their lack of class features in their enhancements. Much of the power of non-spellcasters comes from enhancements. Heck, even a lot of a spellcaster's power comes from AP.