a halfling Dark Path/Ninja Spy challenge!

[GlassJaw]

Turbine must want me to make a monk because I pulled a ton of good monk gear this past weekend. I've had a build in mind for a while but not exactly sure the best way to make it work.

Requirements:
- halfling
- dark path + ninja spy
- good solo/small group capability
- must be able to flip out and go crazy like a ninja
- I have access to 32-pt builds and +2/+3 tomes
- leaning towards Wis/water monk, with splashes in maybe earth or wind

I'll mention that I'm not looking for the absolute perfect build for epic end-game stuff. I'll certainly level to 20 and play at the end-game but this is mostly a build for fun.

Here's my thoughts so far:

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Halfling Male 
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 282 
Spell Points: 0 

BAB: 15/15/20/2525 
Fortitude: 16 
Reflex: 18 
Will: 21 

              Starting    Feat/Enhancement 
Abilities    Base Stats    Modified Stats 
(32 Point)    (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Strength           14                17 
Dexterity          16                21 
Constitution       13                16 
Intelligence       11                14 
Wisdom             15                26 
Charisma            8                11 

Tomes Used 
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3 
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3 
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3 
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3 
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3 
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3 
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7 
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7 
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11 
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11 
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11 
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11 
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11 
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11 
 
              Starting      Feat/Enhancement 
             Base Skills  Modified Skills 
Skills       (Level 1)      (Level 20) 
Balance            7              32 
Bluff              -1             3 
Concentration      5              26 
Diplomacy          -1             4 
Disable Device     n/a            n/a 
Haggle             -1             0 
Heal               2              8 
Hide               3              26 
Intimidate         -1             0 
Jump               6              30 
Listen             2              10 
Move Silently      3              24 
Open Lock          n/a            n/a 
Perform            n/a            n/a 
Repair             0              2 
Search             0              2 
Spot               2              8 
Swim               2              3 
Tumble             7              30 
Use Magic Device   n/a            n/a 
 
Level 1 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+4) 
Skill: Concentration (+4) 
Skill: Jump (+4) 
Skill: Tumble (+4) 
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack 
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting 
 
Level 2 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist 
 
Level 3 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
Feat: (Selected) Dodge 
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness 
 
Level 4 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 5 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 6 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Sunder 
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness 
 
Level 7 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 8 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 0
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 9 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting 
 
Level 10 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 11 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 12 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons 
 
Level 13 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 14 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 15 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting 
 
Level 16 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 17 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 18 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
Feat: (Selected)  ??
 
Level 19 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1) 
 
Level 20 (Monk) 
Skill: Balance (+1) 
Skill: Concentration (+1) 
Skill: Hide (+1) 
Skill: Jump (+1) 
Skill: Move Silently (+1) 
Skill: Tumble (+1)

Feats
I actually have one feat left (at 18) but not sure what to take. I've read that Wis monks can have trouble with hitting, especially with Power Attack on, so I could shuffle the feats around and take Weapon Finesse earlier.

I've also thought about fitting in Combat Expertise and Improved Trip but that would probably require dropping Improved Sunder. Is Eagle Claw Attack a reasonable substitute for Imp Sunder?

I like the idea of high Wisdom + Combat Expertise and Unbalancing Strike + Improved Trip but getting an auto -3 Fort from Imp Sunder is pretty sweet. Any thoughts here?

Enhancements
I have very little experience with monks so not entirely sure yet. From what I've read, I definitely want Ninja Spy and I'm leaning towards Water with some Wind or Earth.

Void Strike - worth going all the way to IV?

I originally considering Crane but Monkey sounds cool too. Water + Monkey means crazy-high saves against traps, which is very nice for soloing. Same goes for stacking resists.

I'd also take the halfling sneak attack enhancements to maximize Ninja Spy, especially with Unbalancing Strike.

Anyway, hope this post isn't all over the place too much. Just trying to throwing a bunch of ideas out and hope for some feedback. Thanks!

[GlassJaw]

No thoughts? Just want to make sure I'm on the right track, especially since I've never played a monk before.

[keveniaftw]

I personally would go Shintao (have had dark life, now light and I **** know wht's better IMO)
Void strike IV is worth it if u planning on all round build anyways.

EDIT: I'm **** blind
*casts remove blindness*
Ok, better. Ur build seems ok, yes void strike 4 is worth it, but I'd surely go more str if I was u. Dex 19 is enough, 21 is n't needed rlly
Gl!
(Also, ninja and good solo capacity beginning from lvl 10 will be tough as not high amp Ninja (bad selfheals))

[GlassJaw]

Hmm, I've been reading more threads and it seems the consensus is that putting level ups into Wisdom is a trap. That definitely concerns me.

My initial concept was to go high Wis and Water for crazy-high saves but not being able to hit anything would get frustrating very fast. Is a Wis in the 26 range high enough for this type of build? (15 base + 3 tome + 6 item + 2 enhancement)

That would allow me to put all stat points into Str and forgo Weapon Finesse.

[keveniaftw]

As dark monk, I'd say 30 wisdom in total is enough (15 base, 2 lvl up, 6 item, 5 enhancement (monk wis I, II, III and capstone), 2 tome.
As you will prefer fire stance probably, u'll have 28 wisdom, which is enough, but in the end u'll have ToD rings anyways.

[GlassJaw]

As you will prefer fire stance probably

Really? Everything I've read says that this is one of the least-used stances. Air and Earth seem to be the most common, with Water have situational uses (or specifically built around).

Honestly, the more research I do on monks, the more confused I get, especially with regards to Str vs Dex vs Wis and the upcoming changes in MotU.

Think I'm just going to put my monk on the back-burner for now I guess.

[sebastianosmith]

Really? Everything I've read says that this is one of the least-used stances. Air and Earth seem to be the most common, with Water have situational uses (or specifically built around).

Honestly, the more research I do on monks, the more confused I get, especially with regards to Str vs Dex vs Wis and the upcoming changes in MotU.

Think I'm just going to put my monk on the back-burner for now I guess.

Currently, fire stance is most usable at low levels (1-8). It provides more ki - in sort supply at those levels - and a slight strength boost. By the time you get to the Sands, you'll be wanting to run either air or earth as either will have outpaced fire in DPS and survivability. At the moment, favoring water stance is more a flavor build choice generally reserved for later levels and clonks. Extreme wisdom can be quite helpful with CC when hastes are plentiful.

As far as what's coming down the pipe in MotU, well, who knows really? I suspect what's on Llamaland will be close to what goes live. After that the Devs will see who screams the loudest and fix the squeakiest wheels in U15.

Please, proceed with your monk idea. I started out playing mostly fighters with a smattering of other mainly melee-focused builds. It was only when I started to play monks that I realized what playing a melee is all about. Some will tell you it's auto attack and AFK until the arcanes take down the boss. I can tell you that monks force one to be a more creative melee player. They are nuanced, requiring heightened situational awareness and above all balance (not the skill; the concept). Monks are the bards of melee classes; contributing without notice; brilliant without shining. I'll never play another melee class that lacks at least a splash of monk no matter what future updates bring.

[Rhysem]

Monks may well get screwed left right and center in motu, so waiting is not a bad plan. Shintao is nice for some content, lame for others. Ninja, ditto. Shintao shines on undead and eles, fails at humanoids. Dark fails at undead and shines everywhere else. Halfling is a strictly bad choice. Horc or helf, your pick. I'm partial to helf for dark, because you can cleric dillie to be able to throw scrolls. You're a monk so you already have the wis to get that dilly. I could maybe see human if you feel feat starved. Can always swap to rogue dilly if you later want to raid/etc and don't care about "UMDilly"ing heal.

For feats you need: GTWF, Imp Sunder, Stunning Fist, Toughness, and IC Bludg. Any prereqs also, of course. Spare feats can be spent as you will for now but with motu plan to spend the one at 18 on improved unarmed attack, which probably means you have no spare feats.

All-around earth is probably the best stance. In motu this is likely to be even more true as the AC changes are kinda screwing monks out of any PRR (ie: % based DR). Only way you get that is earth stance.

If you're doing void strike, you want IV or skip it totally.

One point of interest: In motu, the druid active past life summons flame blades (scimmis, including 18-20 crit profile) 3x/rest, which use wis to-hit and dmg. Trouble is they vanish if you unwield them, which means you can't swap weapons (or wand or scroll heal yourself) with them. You *might* be able to get tricky with one-handing one plus a shortsword as a dark monk and have weapon set hotkeys to push the flame blade to your offhand and a wand to your primary. I don't know if that'd work. It *should* as you never have to release the weapon, but in coding practically probably it doesn't. Might be practical with druid dilly if you can find scrolls of flame blade on a vendor, or with a rogue or artie splash to get umd as a class skill?

I have plans to TR my halfling shintao earth4 with dragonmarks into a helf ninja spy earth4/void4, but am sitting it out till I see how the AC/tohit changes fall out for a bit. Also suspecting with druid forms and the ability to cast in form, monk may be dead as a class compared to evasion splashed feral druids.

Oops, did I use a term from that other game? :-P

[Alternative]

It's really hard to discuss pretty much anything not knowing what the expansion changes are going to look like. Currently I'm liking my wis based monk that switches between air and earth stance as needed, tho there are some to-hit issues and you have to plan and build to counter that. Supposedly it's going to be 'easier' in the expansion but I don't know. Still remember than even is you go str based you shouldn't dump wis, and likewise when going wis based.

Currently wis gives you AC, and improves DC of monk special abilities, most importantly stunning fist and touch of death. In the expansion the monk destiny gets a couple more interesting wis based moves. (note you don't have to use water stance when wis based, on my monk I use either air or earth)

Strength gives you more raw damage and better to-hit, and is a much safer way to go on a first life monk. This is also where fire stance is useful, when you don't have a lot of raid gear it's the best stance for to-hit and ki generation.

Last important thing to consider is Void 4 strike. When you roll 20 you erase (insta kill) struck enemy, works on everything, living, undead, elemental, golem, even epic orange named mobs (used to work on training dummy too). It has low ki cost and low cooldown too, but the cost to get it is massive. You have to take tier 3 of all four stances, and at least one tier 4 stance. Not only is it very AP intensive but also requires you to have base 16 of all str dex con and wis, and 18 in at least one (so base stats, level ups and tomes only) It is worth it, but very hard on a first life and without +3 tomes, +2 tomes being a must have pretty much.

[GlassJaw]

Currently I'm liking my wis based monk that switches between air and earth stance as needed, tho there are some to-hit issues and you have to plan and build to counter that.

I'm intrigued by a Wis-based monk but concerned about potential to-hit issues, especially with Power Attack. I have decent gear but certainly not of the end-game/epic caliber.

And that's the main issue I'm having trouble wrapping my head around when it comes to monks - where to put level-ups?

Str - Won't need Weapon Finesse but will DCs be high enough for Stunning Fist and other monk abilities?

Dex - Easier to get a higher Dex, especially with halfling, but requires another feat in an already-feat starved build.

Wis - Great DCs but at the expense of to-hit bonus? Would it be viable to be Wis-based and take with Weapon Finesse?

[WTFFowler]

your build here

Feats
I actually have one feat left (at 18) but not sure what to take. I've read that Wis monks can have trouble with hitting, especially with Power Attack on, so I could shuffle the feats around and take Weapon Finesse earlier.

I've also thought about fitting in Combat Expertise and Improved Trip but that would probably require dropping Improved Sunder. Is Eagle Claw Attack a reasonable substitute for Imp Sunder?

I like the idea of high Wisdom + Combat Expertise and Unbalancing Strike + Improved Trip but getting an auto -3 Fort from Imp Sunder is pretty sweet. Any thoughts here?

Enhancements
I have very little experience with monks so not entirely sure yet. From what I've read, I definitely want Ninja Spy and I'm leaning towards Water with some Wind or Earth.

Void Strike - worth going all the way to IV?

You dont need a tumble that high. Spot is a nice place to put additional points as you know where traps/invisible enemies may be.

To-hit will always be an issue with monks, thats just the way it is. If you inssist on using wis stance than a pair of cursespeweing of destruction handwraps to swap to every now and again will benefit you on tougher to his boss fights. In terms of feats, you can never go wrong with another toughness. No, eagle claw attack is not a substitute for Imp.Sunder

The -3 fort stacks per hit, up to a max of -12(or 15 forgot which one). Which will make sure your dark finishers land easier and you can stun better. I would not trade that for feats that boost your ac if you dont plan on tanking. If you are planning on tanking earth stance is the way to go.

If you want to go finesse, max out wind stance. Its the best dps stance for not-always-hasted monks. It also provides a boot to dex which would helps with to-hit.

About void strikes: Either go 1 so you can use the void finishers, or go all 4 for insta killing fun. Don't go part way, you dont get that much for the ap for 2 or 3

I'm intrigued by a Wis-based monk but concerned about potential to-hit issues, especially with Power Attack. I have decent gear but certainly not of the end-game/epic caliber.

And that's the main issue I'm having trouble wrapping my head around when it comes to monks - where to put level-ups?

Str - Won't need Weapon Finesse but will DCs be high enough for Stunning Fist and other monk abilities?

Dex - Easier to get a higher Dex, especially with halfling, but requires another feat in an already-feat starved build.

Wis - Great DCs but at the expense of to-hit bonus? Would it be viable to be Wis-based and take with Weapon Finesse?

Strength you can never go wrong in. Even if you go finess, strength still determines the damage modifier, dex only applies to hit. This is my personal choice, but I dont do finesse builds either.

Dexterity will provide you better ac as well as more to-hit if you go the finesse route. Some extra reflex saves and that about it. You build can't be that feat starved if you have an open feat slot at 18(if you solved that already my mistake I skimmed through most of it)

Widsom will give better DC's to your finishers as well as stunning fist and AC. I wouldn't put any point into it though. Between Imp sunder, and the ways to boost your stunning DC you wont need it. As to viability- if you're going dex based finesse why would you put stats here and not in dex?

Hope this helps. Just mostly from anecdotal and person experience. I tried to answer things to give you the best fit what I think you wanted you're build to be, but really the days of dex/wis based monks were numbered when they changed auto crit. They are still perfectly playable, just not optimal.