FvS and Clerics should be OP

[KillEveryone]

And to make things worse, if Divines were more powerful, you'd be less inclined to PuG from 1 to 20 as well.

Actually, I like to be social, I'll just be picky.

[FranOhmsford]

I see the confusion now. I don't really know how FVS work but for clerics in DDO you are not talking about feats at all. You are referring to enhancements. Clerics only spend AP not feats selecting their deity/faith. I'm all for more faith choices and buffing the faith lines altogether but that won't happen till the Enhancement Pass, if then. P2P Forgotten Realms faith enhancements? I don't know. I'd have to see what they come up with before I would choose to purchase them. True cleric domains would be like actual feats chosen at creation, and would be respeced with Fred or LR or something like that.... Domains based in enhancements could be respeced with trainer. Not sure which would be a better option, nor how the devs would go about it if they ever do.

Favored Souls have to pick a Feat at creation {Lvl 1}
Favored By The Sov Host
Favored By The Silver Flame
Favored By The Undying Court
Favored By The Lord of Blades
Favored By Vulkoor

Clerics and Paladins get an Enhancement - Follower of......

I was using the Favored By... Feat as my starter point.

I see no reason why this feat could not also be given to Clerics and Paladins so they can use it for Domains.

The Enhancement Tree would obviously change too.

For my Undying Court example above I would suggest:

Tier 1 Enhancement for Clerics/Souls would change the +1 to Hit to +2 to Hit / +2 Dmg
Tier 2 would make that +4 Dmg
Tier 3 would give the Necro DC

The Undying Call would remain as is except rather than being once/5 or 10 minutes {not sure how long the cooldown actually is} it would be 3/rest.
Maybe 1/rest at lvl 6, 2/rest at Lvl 12 and 3/rest at lvl 18 BUT NOT Tiered so you don't have to spend silly amounts of action points.

For Paladins - The Feat would give +3 to hit / +3 dmg
Tier 1 would be +6 Dmg
Tier 2 - +9 Dmg
Tier 3 - +12 Dmg

Obviously new {old} spells would need to be brought in to fill out domains too BUT all I'm asking for is better Faith Lines.

[Ungood]

And to make things worse, if Divines were more powerful, you'd be less inclined to PuG from 1 to 20 as well.

I for one, never said clerics/fvs souls should be made more powerful... I said healing should be made less onerous so that pugging has less aggravation. Healing only.

That right there is the problem. A Divine joins a group and they know they are going to play nanny to at least some of the members. It is quite evident from the countless forum posts and even the very terms they use like "Nanny-Bot" or "Heal-bot", that some players simply do not enjoy healing or taking care of the other members in the party that need assistance, however they are attracted to the power divines already have.

So the only way to honestly rectify the problem at this point is to remove this feeling or idea of dependency that others classes may have on a "healer"

That can only be accomplished by viable, renewable, cost effective means for every class to tend to their own needs, from the early levels all the way up, which currently simply does not exist, and it needs to for this game to progress forward.

BYOH and Self Sufficient Builds are the wave of the future, undeniable direction this game is shifting towards due to the desire and wants of the player base. No Divine walks into a group wanting to deal with some squishy spell sponge.

Even the few that like to play the support role of healer don't like being the only source, no matter what a player does, they simply can't be in two spots at the same time or deal with players that do not know how to work within their spacial environment.

So the answer lies in not putting that demand upon them. remove from the other playesr the idea that are supposed to be dependent upon a "Healer" and provide to all the classes the tools and means to be self reliant from the get go, so they build up not only the reptour of skills in how to work pots, wands, and others means to keep themselves alive, they get used it, accustom to taking care of themselves from Krothos on forward.

In the case of Pallies it is level 2, here is your Lay Hands, figure out how to use this keep yourself alive in the hard fights, and then at 4th it's "Here is your Healing spell, we expect you to take care of yourself now" it's early, it happens quick, and they get it fast so they don't have the time to get accustom to someone else taking care of their every scratch and wound.

Every class needs to have that, from the start, "here, we expect you to be self reliant" I mean really, you never read a DnD story where Dritzzt and his friends need to wait around for the "healer" to show up.

DDO needs to put that "Adventure with what you got" type feel into this game. Where First 5 is good enough even for starting players. Where no one is expected to stand around waiting for someone else to take care of them.

Think about how feeble that makes a class seem. How can you hold a vision that you';re playing a hardy though barb if that class needs a nurse maid to be able to do any quest. That is boggles the mind that Turbine lets that sit and fester and rot into their game.

I mean for second life and third life players who have the funds, it is a money sink even a pet project to have a self sufficient melee, after our arcane farmed the parts for the epic items, and all that jazz. But really, that kind of dependency needs to be abolished!

No I am not expecting a barb to solo heal an elite shroud Run. what I am expecting is that they can join a group and no one questions if they need to pull a hire or if they can take care of themselves. It needs to be the nature of all builds to be self reliant, only then will players want to be with other players.

Think about it. No one wants to be in a clingy yet abusive relationship, and that is what divines face every time they join a Pug, where some melee needs them to be there with them all the time and then if they die it's all the divines fault, and you know what, I understand their apprehension facing that at all, ever.

So the only way to remove that is to make it so that the melee don't need to feel clingy or dependent, that when they die they accept that it was all their fault. Like seeing a WF wizard drops dead, they don't blame the cleric, it's like "Dammit. sorry guys. I did not get the recon off in time" or "The mob tripped me" they have total accountabliy for themselves. That is why Divines and Arcane LIKE to group together!

What needs to happen is for that total accountability to now be moved on to all the melee classes and that can't happen until they have the tools and means to be able to account for themselves.

That is where the change needs to happen. That is what will make being a divine in a group fun. When we can all go in and know. we are not going to be pointing fingers, we can all work together while doing our own thing.

We know that is the answer. We realize it, and that will forever remain the problem until Turbine also realizes it.

[Sgt_Hart]

• Fighters should get a feat that allows them to regen life "Echos of Life" or something.while they are conscious.

Lots of good ideas in there, I'm just gonna nitpick this one and say..

BLANKETY, BLANK, BLANK, NO!


Not fighters, Give it to paladins, the feat-starved, gimp DPS, 2nd rate tank class...

The heir to the throne is already spoiled enough. Give the third son a horse(Not that paladins are suppose to inherently get mounts or anything.).

[Khatzhas]

Non-tanking melee simply contribute personal DPS to the party.

If melee don't want to be second rate classes, its time to become first rate party members. That means stepping up, being real team players and taking on a unique party role. Personal DPS is the battle cry, but it simply isn't enough.

Indeed. The issue is that melee have not been given any tools that they can use to do other than this. Melee can trip, stun dangerous mobs, Imp sunder to reduce fortitude saves, and use destruction/cursespewing weapons for likewise. That is all part of playing a melee, and since they require hitting the opponent, I'm assuming that they're all lumped into your "personal DPS" category. But unless you are a halfling that is about the limit of your party-support toolbox.

The answer to the issue you are proposing would seem to be giving them some more abilities to help out fellow party members. Just off the top of my head, how about a feat that allows you to help a knocked-down character get up immediately? Or some "tactical leadership" type buffs that provide bonuses to your party's AC and rolls to resist effects like knockdown and stunning blow? (Actually, party support is I think, the Purple Dragon Knight's schtick so for all we know they'll be coming in November.)

Sadly, most non-tanking melee players really aren't interested in equality of contribution, because it could impinge upon their fun. The sparcity of quality AC tanks today tells you all you really need to know about the average melee player's dedication to team play.

Actually, its more a reflection of the limitations of the current AC system. You can't really play an AC tank without having access to gear that you cannot get with that toon. If you want to tank, you either need to be supplied by another character, or stick to mitigation-based tanking using shield-blocking. At which point you are slowing the rest of the group down unless its a quest that would normally challenge them a lot.
Lots of melee start with the intention of supporting the group by tanking, but learn that outside some situations, trying to tank doesn't actually support the group.

In real world terms, I don't expect to work for free. If I just wanted equal personal DPS, I could slack and play a melee toon.

Given some of your previous statements, I'm pretty sure you would not achieve it.

None of this would be an issue in this game if casters received unlimited spell points (like melee receive unlimited swings of their weapons), but the devs view that as "overpowered". Plus, it would decrease revenue from mana pots sales in the DDO store

Depending upon prestige enhancements, they can do pretty well cycling through SLAs on echoes of power. Obviously doesn't work with every caster though.

[aerosole]

That right there is the problem. A Divine joins a group and they know they are going to play nanny to at least some of the members. It is quite evident from the countless forum posts and even the very terms they use like "Nanny-Bot" or "Heal-bot", that some players simply do not enjoy healing or taking care of the other members in the party that need assistance, however they are attracted to the power divines already have.

So the only way to honestly rectify the problem at this point is to remove this feeling or idea of dependency that others classes may have on a "healer"

Many of your arguments makes sense, but there is one prevalent mentality amongst players that override any sense of self-sufficiency. It is the need for more dps and more hp.

Amongst melees, which classes are the most self-sufficient in taking care of themselves? Paladins and rangers are obvious candidates. Both classes can get good saves easily, can self-heal, and has a lot of versatility. Rogues are next, mostly due to umd.

Yet, the common attitude in pugs is that these classes are gimped. Paladins are "not dps". Rangers are useless. The rogue is only good for getting that extra +15% trap xp.

And when the high dps barb or fighter joins the party, everyone applauds, finally, now we have some *real* melees!

Players actively *choose* dps and hp over self-sufficiency every single time. Or at least they do in pugs and in forums. Look at the popularity of, say, the monster vs the solar phoenix.

Part of the reason lies in the difficulty to build a good ranger/rogue/paladin. DDO is a complex game and the casual player is simply unable to grasp all the intricacies to make their class or build works. A poorly built character is a liability for the party, and a pain for the healer, regardless of the potential for self-sufficiency. No amount of potential - or actual self healing ability - matters when the build fails.

A properly built character, OTOH, is an asset to the party. Why are divines happy to heal in guild runs but refuse to pug? Because they can trust their guild members to perform, regardless of class and build. The availability of self-healing is never an issue. Guildies know to bring SF pots, heal scrolls, and the like, and contribute as a whole to win the raid.

Imagine if, one day, all casual players make perfect, highly optimized builds and are actually reasonably geared. No 0% fort rogues or 200 hp rangers. Everyone joining your random pug shroud run has 500+ hp and DR breakers. I doubt, as a divine healer, you will feel much trepidation or worry. Even if no one in the whole party can self-heal.

If anything, the game needs to do a better job educating casual players how the complex game mechanics work. For those who does not care, the pre-defined class paths are meant to take care of that... but we all know how atrocious those are. Having a good UI helps a lot in that area (e.g. the defense % numbers is a good example - it tells the newbie player whether their ac is actually working). Some way of benchmarking their build performance is another (again, this is where the paths can help, but fails). Honestly, DDO does a very poor job in these areas, evidenced by the multitudes of poorly build characters.

What divines hate the most is not the boring role of being the sole source of healing; it is the dreadful task of trying to keep an incompetent party alive long enough to drag them through a raid.

[Ungood]

Not fighters, Give it to paladins, the feat-starved, gimp DPS, 2nd rate tank class...

I would like to take a moment and explain that when I said give, I only meant that such a feat would be available from the list of feats they could select. I have no inhibitions about making an Echo's of Life feat, It was more a personal vision of something that would be am Upgrade to the Die Hard feat, where you take care of yourself and click back 5% of your life every 30 Seconds as long as you are conscious, and not under some negative spell effect like cursed wounds, mummy rot, etc.

In fact, I have no limitations or inhibitions about allowing this feat to be given to all melee classes. Maybe even have it get an enhancement line to augment it faster and further, or even allow it to be used to have a renewing effect that allows a person with this feat to tend another player and restore 10% of their health over the next 30 seconds, useable once a day or renewing like US is, once every 600 seconds.

The heir to the throne is already spoiled enough. Give the third son a horse(Not that paladins are suppose to inherently get mounts or anything.).

I really wish they put in some kind of Pet companion for Pallies, like the Figurine, call it a Bridle or something that summons their 20th level War Horse to come fight with them. I could so see that as a handy class benefit.

There have been a few suggestions along this line as well, like allowing Men-at-arms in the game, to function like arti-dogs, but be basically hires that a player has to outfit, and levels with them. There have been some great ideas on the subject and I hope Turbine takes the time to look into them.

There is no doubt that all the melee classes could use some love, and augments to balance them out are there. Like I said, giving Pallies level 6 spells would be a step in the right direction to make them far more able bodied, as well as give the impression that this is not a second rate tanker class, but it's own construct, this is a caster/melee mix that is a force to reckoned with.

Indeed. The issue is that melee have not been given any tools that they can use to do other than this.

That is the core problem right there, again and again we realize that while every caster class is given a diverse portfolio of tools, melee classes are very one dimensional, and that is where we need to fix them. We need to allow them to bring more to the party then "I can swing this axe really good"

And step one along that path to diversity needs to be the ability to take care of their own needs, if only their own needs.

Making a Self Sufficient Melee should not be relegated to the Pet Project of bored Casters, or players on their path to Completionist going though their "melee lives", which is what it currently is.

[KillEveryone]

Please don't take my rant to mean that I don't like healing. I really don't mind doing that.

I don't want to have to do that the entire quest because I'd like to have a little fun doing something else with my SP because I have so much more to offer than just dishing out heals.

I think melee need to have better access to self healing options. Regeneration items are junk...over 60 minutes you'll regen 60 HP and it is the rare occasion that a quest is even going to last 30 minutes unless you are new to the quest. Even then, 60 minutes just for 60HP, come on now, that is a tickle on a barbarian. CSW pots don't really make a dent into a barbarian red bar. Silver Flame pots take a bit to get and for new players, this isn't a very good option since they'll have to get the gear to make up for any penalties to the pots since they wouldn't be very likely to fudge a build point for that.

But there is a attitude that when a divine joins, they are going to be stuck watching the red bars when there is more to them than being a red bar watcher.

[Sarisa]

Think about it. No one wants to be in a clingy yet abusive relationship, and that is what divines face every time they join a Pug, where some melee needs them to be there with them all the time and then if they die it's all the divines fault, and you know what, I understand their apprehension facing that at all, ever.

Best quote in the thread, and sums up my feeling about the one in three or four PUG's that tried my patience and goodwill to the limit.

That is EXACTLY why many divines, even those who love healing and the support role, and play that role extremely well, end up becoming EXTREMELY picky about the groups they join or simply go anonymous and run guild/channel/friends only.

[Ungood]

Please don't take my rant to mean that I don't like healing. I really don't mind doing that.

I don't want to have to do that the entire quest because I'd like to have a little fun doing something else with my SP because I have so much more to offer than just dishing out heals.

And you shouldn't have to. Really it's bad design to have this dependecny built into these classes. They need to start with better more potent healing items avaliable to melee's.

• Lower level Heal Amp
• Feats that allow for Healing faster with the tools we have already like Quaff.
• Better stronger healing Potions.
• Boosting the Speed of Regen Items

There is no reason why a Melee should be so poorly provided for that they feel the need to be dependent upon a divine to nanny them. Both the Melee and the Divine get a portion of their gaming fun robbed from them in such a set up.

But there is a attitude that when a divine joins, they are going to be stuck watching the red bars when there is more to them than being a red bar watcher.

Exactly, and on the same token, a Melee player does not like the idea that they need to have a divine join the group to allow them to have any fun. That is why Vets with the funds and gear always play self sufficient melee builds, they would rather throw plat, and I mean just dump plat, gear and farming tine on their main caster to outfit their melee to they do not need to depend on some healer to enable them to have fun.

This dependency that Melee have needs to go away and Melee builds need to have self sufficiency as a class feature and mantra of the game itself.

Every vet, every TR, builds or is funded to the point to take care of themselves, so they can have fun, because that is the natural progression that the game is moving in, and Turbine needs to wake up and address this, support it and make it so that it is embraced by the new players coming to this game., otherwise there will be remain constant friction between melee who feel emasculated because they need to be healed the and divines feel chasten in such a role.

Good will comes from equal players meeting and having fun, dependency generates bitterness. Which is what these forums have in spades, and the only real solution is to remove the dependency that melee classes suffer though.

[taurean430]

Best quote in the thread, and sums up my feeling about the one in three or four PUG's that tried my patience and goodwill to the limit.

That is EXACTLY why many divines, even those who love healing and the support role, and play that role extremely well, end up becoming EXTREMELY picky about the groups they join or simply go anonymous and run guild/channel/friends only.

I don't run anon. I simply say no. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement aside from that one bit.

A big part of this argument though lies in how melee behave. Not all, but most. The number of players I've encountered in game so far that feel it's my responsibility to lose all of my sp/wands/scrolls/pots while they do little to no visible damage is astounding. You look at the red bar and it's barely moved, yet you've spammed multiple cures/heals on them.

People have gotten upset with me for suggesting tactics/positioning/taking advantage of cc/off tanking when I have aggro/etc. When I feel my best option on my divines is to kill the mobs myself that's a problem.

I rolled up a 28pt F2P dwarven barbarian recently. He has zero twink gear, and uses what he can afford from questing. Even while running that toon and offering suggestions to other melee, I'm met with outright hostility at times, and heated debate during others. Yet, I don't die. I use CMW/CSW pots. Many people just don't get that standing in front of that Ogre/Troll while they are winding up is bad. They fully expect to be healed through every single mob they aggro that does this to them multiple times. It's a sad state of affairs.

I'm sorry to say that it's more effecient sp and time wise to kill it myself in some parties. Because it costs me very little to do so compared to what it takes to keep the autoattacking statue alive. The godsend actually has been that with the changes coming into play you see a lot of experienced players trying to get last minute TR's in. Those are by far much better groups to run with.

I feel this is something that should have been addressed years ago but remains ignored to this day. It's past due time that increased healing consumables were made available outside of the DDO store.

[phalaeo]

I especially "enjoy" having people spam me tells to join their group when I am already in a quest, either with a party or soloing. I used to ask whether they really expected me to ditch my current quest just to run theirs, but too many said "yes"....

There really needs to be an option to block all incoming tells except from people in your party.

I used to ask as well, or even let them invite me and continue to go along with my business, but it got too annoying. Perhaps it is different on different servers, but it annoys the heck out of me on Argo.

[phalaeo]

Quite honestly, I believe there are two ways to get people to play more healer-types.

1. Make the other players more self sufficient, or less whiny in pugs (kinda hard to implement, right? I.e. not a lot of control with this option.)

2. Give us more fun (but not necessarily OP) spells and tools to work with. More flexibility to pursue secondary roles.

For instance- make Life Magic and the crit lines 1AP per tier, like Arcanes are. Then we could freely invest in Smiting a little more. Give us cool new spells, like Divine Punishment. There's a ton more ideas to be inserted here.... they don't need to be OP to be effective, fun, and encourage diversity.

[DeafeningWhisper]

And you shouldn't have to. Really it's bad design to have this dependecny built into these classes. They need to start with better more potent healing items avaliable to melee's.

• Lower level Heal Amp
• Feats that allow for Healing faster with the tools we have already like Quaff.
• Better stronger healing Potions.
• Boosting the Speed of Regen Items

There is no reason why a Melee should be so poorly provided for that they feel the need to be dependent upon a divine to nanny them. Both the Melee and the Divine get a portion of their gaming fun robbed from them in such a set up.

Exactly, and on the same token, a Melee player does not like the idea that they need to have a divine join the group to allow them to have any fun. That is why Vets with the funds and gear always play self sufficient melee builds, they would rather throw plat, and I mean just dump plat, gear and farming tine on their main caster to outfit their melee to they do not need to depend on some healer to enable them to have fun.

This dependency that Melee have needs to go away and Melee builds need to have self sufficiency as a class feature and mantra of the game itself.

Every vet, every TR, builds or is funded to the point to take care of themselves, so they can have fun, because that is the natural progression that the game is moving in, and Turbine needs to wake up and address this, support it and make it so that it is embraced by the new players coming to this game., otherwise there will be remain constant friction between melee who feel emasculated because they need to be healed the and divines feel chasten in such a role.

Good will comes from equal players meeting and having fun, dependency generates bitterness. Which is what these forums have in spades, and the only real solution is to remove the dependency that melee classes suffer though.

I play self-healers only, just because I freaking *HATE* having to burden someone into watching me play instead of playing.


I tried leveling a Barb and melee fighter, I couldn't get past lvl 7, the idea of having to not only drink pots like they're going out of style but also "need" healer at end game made my blood boil, those toons where quickly deleted.

Now I build splashed toons, with either high UMD or healing spells and I also build for versitality, my toons can provide dps as well as other things like trap skills, CC or buffs.

It's sad that a pure melee has to focus almost solely on dps/tank builds because their own self-healing is none existent. Only been able to play when someone deciedes to take you by the hand and kiss your boo-boos away is, well, insulting in my book.

Well insulting might be too hard a word, but yeah it's not "fun" that's for sure.

[Sarisa]

I don't run anon. I simply say no. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement aside from that one bit.

I said become picky about your groups OR go anon.

[Ungood]

Quite honestly, I believe there are two ways to get people to play more healer-types.

1. Make the other players more self sufficient, or less whiny in pugs (kinda hard to implement, right? I.e. not a lot of control with this option.)

This is very easy to put in, and already exists at the higher levels, they just need to have more trickle down, and this would actually fix the underlying problem. Nothing else will.

[Ungood]

I play self-healers only, just because I freaking *HATE* having to burden someone into watching me play instead of playing.

And you are not alone in this. No melee feels good about needing a healer, they don't enjoy the dependency and nothing inhibits a players game enjoyment then needing to depend on someone else to enable it.

Which make no mistake is where most of the bitterness stems from, they don't want to be dependent but due to ridiculously poor development and continual design of the game, they remain so, thus they are unhappy at needing the "healer" there, then to have that healer given them an attitude and not do their "role" generates nothing but strife across the entire game and what has caused most of the issues we see on the forums today.

I'll tell you this, even a player who enjoys playing a "healer" is thankful for the chance to run in a group of self sufficient players and not need to worry about anyone else. It is uplifting and freeing to them. And I respect that feeling, and that freedom for both divines and melee's can be obtained IF they provide the means to melee players to not be shackled to a "healer" because that binding goes both ways.

I tried leveling a Barb and melee fighter, I couldn't get past lvl 7, the idea of having to not only drink pots like they're going out of style but also "need" healer at end game made my blood boil, those toons where quickly deleted.

Now I build splashed toons, with either high UMD or healing spells and I also build for versitality, my toons can provide dps as well as other things like trap skills, CC or buffs.

It's sad that a pure melee has to focus almost solely on dps/tank builds because their own self-healing is none existent. Only been able to play when someone deciedes to take you by the hand and kiss your boo-boos away is, well, insulting in my book.

Well insulting might be too hard a word, but yeah it's not "fun" that's for sure.

Disenchanting is what I would chose to describe that situation. We are playing a game where we are hero's our toons are to be the stuff of legend, not some sword swinger that needs a nurse maid.

While I am not asking that melee toons be give anything on a silver platter, I am asking that the means, methods and abilities be there from the start to develop a self sufficient nature in this game. Because when we all can take care of ourselves, we can group and play because we enjoy the game and the company of the other people in our group. not because we need some specific class make up to enable us to be able to function.

[blerkington]

... A big part of this argument though lies in how melee behave. Not all, but most. ...

Hi,

I think this post really gets to the centre of the problem. More self-healing options for melee is one approach, but the amount of babysitting a melee requires often comes down to playstyle, more than gear and build.

If you don't play your melee tactically, but just wade in and grab as much aggro as you can, you can count on taking some serious damage in every encounter mid- to end-game. I think it's appropriate that can occur, because there should be risks, and it also contains a message for the player to take away from that about improving their style.

So is the issue here that the melee classes need more self-healing options, or that we just need to play them better? I'm not saying everyone should be a rockstar, just doing things that every thinking, competent player has within their control.

From what I see here and from my own experience healing, having to heal melees in raid settings is not an issue, nor is keeping an eye on a good group of them outside of raids, when they are making an effort to look after themselves through good play and topping themselves up out of their own pockets.

The real misery comes from poor treatment by other players, whether it's intentional because they are rude or because they don't know any better and have silly expectations about people babysitting them no matter what they do.

That seems like more of a social problem, which can be solved by education or avoidance depending on your inclination, rather than a reason to change the way the game works.

Thanks.

[Ungood]

More self-healing options for melee is one approach. but the amount of babysitting a melee requires often comes down to playstyle, more than gear and build.

The amount of "babysitting" as you call that should be needed by any class should be no greater then zero.

Self-sufficiency is already only open to, what did you call them. "Rock Stars", as I said several times over, self-sufficiency of a melee build should not be something someone sets for their twinked to death alt or third life character.

And I'll explain this again, the lack of healing options open to a melee gives the players the impression that someone is supposed to take care of them, and that is the wrong impression to give anyone, as that reinforces or for players first time playing an MMO generates a "role" mentality that this game does not support for their divine classes. The only way to remove that impression is give them the means to tend to themselves from the start to the finish, and right now, the game seems actively adamant against providing such means. And that will forever cause problems and issues.

No one likes needing help, or being unable to play, no group wants to wait for a "healer" and as it stands the view of the divine players is that they don't want to join a group that Needs a "healer". So we have a denifinite problem that steps specifuclaly from the lack of self healing options open to the melee classes.

There are only two actual solutions, the first is make Divines and Melee totally interdependent, and thus everyone is hapless and unhappy, -or- make them mutually independent, which the option that would honesly resolve and solve the issue with everyone coming out with the freedom and ability to enjoy that game that they sincerely want and deserve.

[DeafeningWhisper]

The amount of "babysitting" as you call that should be needed by any class should be no greater then zero.

Self-sufficiency is already only open to, what did you call them. "Rock Stars", as I said several times over, self-sufficiency of a melee build should not be something someone sets for their twinked to death alt or third life character.

And I'll explain this again, the lack of healing options open to a melee gives the players the impression that someone is supposed to take care of them, and that is the wrong impression to give anyone, as that reinforces or for players first time playing an MMO generates a "role" mentality that this game does not support for their divine classes. The only way to remove that impression is give them the means to tend to themselves from the start to the finish, and right now, the game seems actively adamant against providing such means. And that will forever cause problems and issues.

No one likes needing help, or being unable to play, no group wants to wait for a "healer" and as it stands the view of the divine players is that they don't want to join a group that Needs a "healer". So we have a denifinite problem that steps specifuclaly from the lack of self healing options open to the melee classes.

There are only two actual solutions, the first is make Divines and Melee totally interdependent, and thus everyone is hapless and unhappy, -or- make them mutually independent, which the option that would honesly resolve and solve the issue with everyone coming out with the freedom and ability to enjoy that game that they sincerely want and deserve.

A healer should be boon to a party, not a necessity.

Adding healing pots (make them favor rewards of some kind, 150 thou not 400) with base 50-75 would go a long way to help melees be more self-sufficent.

Right now it's Silver Flame pots or yell "heal" for no UMD/blue bar melees.