FvS and Clerics should be OP

[Ungood]

A healer should be boon to a party, not a necessity.

I would like to correct this. a Divine should be a boon to the party, a healer should not need to exist.

While I am in favor of adding more healing potions to the game, add them in as favor rewards, and such, there needs to be intrinsic abilities added to the melee classes that make them self sufficient that send a clear and concise message that self sufficiency is the nature of this game.

That comes from Feats like Quaff (Which allows the use of more then one potion at a time), or have Die Hard have a regen effect to it. That comes from there being methods and means open and even thrust upon the melee at the very start of the game that they can, and should tend to their own needs. But more then that, the game needs to provide them the tools to do so from the start to the end.

But providing boons and ability to melee classes seems to be against the very capacity of the development staff, as I recall their blundering with trying to revise Madstone boots, and fixing them while all they did was propose to transform them into some abomination.

So while it is self evident what needs to be done to make a change in the outlook of players and how their interaction dynamic, I know that nothing will be done that will actually address this issue or fix the problem.

Such is a sad fate when the solution to the issue is painfully glaring obvious, but knowing it will be ignored in favor some band-aid fix that will do nothing to resolve the cause of the problems and thus it will continue to fester.

The thing is, there is nothing I can do about it. I have stopped playing pure melee characters, because the designers honestly can't seem to do a single update without nerfing them in some manner or another, thus, while I know what it would take to move this game forward to enhance the freedom and thus the enjoyment of it's player base, I know that I may as well be speaking into the wind for all the good it will do in the end.

[Airgeadlam]

And you are not alone in this. No melee feels good about needing a healer

Well, then tell all those bonnie melees in your server to come to Thelanis, please. Here you will find melees that not only feel good needing a healer, but entitled to have a personal healer and healer only as well.

A big part of this argument though lies in how melee behave. Not all, but most.

People have gotten upset with me for suggesting tactics/positioning/taking advantage of cc/off tanking when I have aggro/etc.

I rolled up a 28pt F2P dwarven barbarian recently. He has zero twink gear, and uses what he can afford from questing. Even while running that toon and offering suggestions to other melee, I'm met with outright hostility at times, and heated debate during others. Yet, I don't die. I use CMW/CSW pots. Many people just don't get that standing in front of that Ogre/Troll while they are winding up is bad. They fully expect to be healed through every single mob they aggro that does this to them multiple times. It's a sad state of affairs.

This. There are certain melees out there that even with a Heal SLA, infinite uses and 1 sec cooldwon will wait for you on a divine to Heal them. No matter what options you bring to the table if the player has no intention to use them. CSW potions are enough in all the low level content, yet people don't buy them (and useful but slow resource on mid-high level). Resist 20 potions are avaliable at lvl7 yet they will take all the incoming elemental damage waiting for you to throw a resist (I lost count on how many times I casted a Resist Acid only because I noticed the damage ticks, not because they told me they were suffering that damage). Lost count of monks who never dare to use the Healing curse + Healing Ki (or wholeness of body, for that matter). Not that they have good healing amp or anything, right? Tell some barbs out there about that healing amp! "I have loads of Hp, I don't need it. Heal me" (True story!).

Problem is not the people who's not self-sufficient. Problem is people don't care about self sufficiency if they see a blur bar at their side. Period.

Self-sufficiency is already only open to, what did you call them. "Rock Stars", as I said several times over, self-sufficiency of a melee build should not be something someone sets for their twinked to death alt or third life character.

Not true. You don't need all the gear to stay alive. Taurean has explained about his new experience with a totally new barbarian. And he does not die, right? The toon is totally new, with no twink gear and only using what drops on chests.

Take a look, at low levels. CLW dropping on crates/barrels/boxes. Fresh off the boat players, no gear at all. Do they pick even ONE of those potions? Hell, no, that's why we have a cleric in the party.

Look at those fancy (yet ugly) h-elves out there. Fighter, level 20. And oh, yes, rogue dilettante. 3d6 is sooooooo uber DPZZZ!!! And of course, you can't even think on getting the cleric one. That's a waste, right? Want to know how many times I've been told to use Lockania's free feat change to get rogue dilettante instead? Want to know how many people told me, kind of exact words, "Man, using scrolls is a drain, you'll get poor in no time"? Want to know how many of those people expect the cleric/fvs/bard in party to drain their resources in potions/wands/scrolls without hesitation?

No, self-sufficiency is not just about twink gear, and past lives, and having 41 UMD or being a caster. Is about knowing what you're doing: When to fight, when to retreat, when to draw aggro and when to let others do it. And of course, be willing to sacrifice some "UBERDPZZZ!" if needed.

As an example, I'm doing some TR-Trains on my guild. "Twink gear! TR!" you can say, but no always. I sometimes bring a fresh lvl1 toon, 32pt build that's true, to the group. Last TR train, our "healer"was me, on a non twinked warchanter. Songs, buffs.. but healing? I used potions like crazy for most of content, so they did. And we made it to 20.

Current TR train, well, this time I'm using a TR toon as well. Since he was a WF FvS on his previous life, I had only WF gear to twink. Asked the guy who was gonna bring a FvS to the group "Man, would you mind if I do this? I want this barbarian life, and this and that". He said yes, so bingo bango, WF Barbarian. The divine's most feared. And... circumstances: Our healer was not there when we started. "Uh oh", I thought "If he can make it to the group, I'm gonna be a bit screwed". Well, what is done is done, they say, so I just adjusted tactics. DR>DPS. Healing amp>DPS. And I keep on killing stuff, and I'm not dieing (lvl18 so far). Am I elite? No, for sure. Do I have all the twink items? No. Do I have (forgot!) silver flame pots? No. UMD? No. Repair Serious Damage potions! And for most of the content, and thanks to the enemy AI, I can round in circles followed by a bunch of enemies and drink some potions, back to fight, rinse and repeat. Takes a bit longer? Sure. Do I die? No.

Player mentality. What we need to change is the player's mentality. Without that, no matter what options you offer for self healing, they will never use them.


To the OP: No, clerics and favored souls don't need more power. Give me a cleric who can kill epic bosses in one hit, and I still won't heal the stupid barbarian pugger and his uberzdpz! It is not that healing is expensive: auras and bursts are free, so the fvs capstone is. It is not that is not fun: It's only not fun when that is the only you can do (personal opinion, of course). The problem is not the class, or any other class. Is the other people.

[Arkenvis]

In regards to greater melee self-sufficiency, I would like to put forth a suggestion that doesn't require taking a feat or grinding favor, and adds a reason for people to consider two of the most useless skills in game: Alter the Heal/Repair skills/kits to recover a percentage of a character's health over a reasonably short period of time. A bonus to the skill could provide greater benefit, though to keep wands/scrolls/potions in play, perhaps using a kit should have a short activation time that can be interrupted without consuming the kit.

[Ungood]

This. There are certain melees out there that even with a Heal SLA, infinite uses and 1 sec cooldown will wait for you on a divine to Heal them.

I believe that this is a totally fallacy, and that most players and play styles are nothing more then the byproduct of the system that spawned them, a system that started them out dependent upon a "healer" and they by no other choice embraced what was imposed upon them by the game mechanic.

If the game mechanic changed they too would change with it. Players, all of them are products of what the system crates. If the game by design had self sufficiency built in then players would develop and embrace a self-sufficient mentality.

But right now, the system is designed that to be sel -sufficnt on a melee requires a vast amount of favor grinding, gear acculimation and near endless plat funds. In this regard the system while putting the ability to be self-sufficient there for melee, has made the task very daunting and thus puts forth the message that they do not want this for their melee classes.

In the same regard, if a divine needs to max House D favor, need a barrage of "Damage Amp Items" and spend anywhere from 5 to 20K plat per instance just to be able swing a weapon with any capacity functioning at less then 50% of what a melee could do no matter how good they got, while yes, there would be some melee capable divines in the game, rightly so very proud of their accomplishment, but by and large the vast population of them would not peruse such a direction simply because from the starting gate, the game seems to be stacked against you and this not only come to accept that the melee classes better be swinging the weapons for them, but come to demand it.

In a simplified version, most players by and large simply want to play the game not have to play the system.

Case in point: You said:

Resist 20 potions are avaliable at lvl7 yet they will take all the incoming elemental damage waiting for you to throw a resist (I lost count on how many times I casted a Resist Acid only because I noticed the damage ticks, not because they told me they were suffering that damage).

Ponder this, I have to go shipping, stock inventory, take up inventory space, (5 slots for resist pots, which Ironically my fighter did deal with, along with cure blindness, remove curse/disease, lesser restoration, cure light and cure serious pots, and Haste/Rage pots, and that was just the generic stock stuff). In doing this, it is tedious, I have to shell out plat, inventory space, and hot bars for on my best day, as the levels get higher will be inferior to something that another class gets for free. It glares of being a sink, even a waste of time for a melee to have to make that investment when almost any caster can cast resist a superior (30 at level 11) with little to no effort their part. The game simply does not pull forward as the game progresses, it does not offer 30 resist pots, it does not offer restoration pots, it does not provide the means for a melee to really take care of themselves. It makes it very clear that anything they get, on their best days, will be an inferior product, case in point, no pot in the game will last as long as casters using the spell. I use haste posts like mad, I drink them like water because they last 30 seconds, a caster can drop a 4 min haste on my melee, if I have a caster in the group that can cast a single spell on the entire group that lasts 4 min, or I could chug 8 pots, it seems rather ridiculous to conceive that anyone should be chugging the 8 pots (Unless they ran off not waiting for buffs, but that is their own fault then ).

But, looking at this, and a great point you have brought up about resist, I will admit, most melee never dealt with pots to take care of that part of their build, However,when ship buffs came in, everyone jumped all over them.

It became the norm for Everyone to grab the resist buffs and anything else they can on their way to the quest. Suddenly, no one was asking the casters for resist buffs. Suddenly the entire mentality of the game world changed, everyone is now covering their own in that regard. No one is asking or demanding that the casters put resist on them, and the old days of waiting for a dozen or so buffs to be cast is gone, in it's place, players tending to their OWN buffs is born. A minor first step in the system where players were given easy to acquire, renewable and cost effect means for them to tend to their own needs and, lo and behold, not only did they use them, they embraced the very idea of taking care of themselves, no longer did anyone expect the "casters" to take care of resists.

End result, Casters no longer feel burdened with spending 10 min at the start of the quest buffing everyone, asking if everyone has resists, or any of that, the melee tend to their own, because it is easy and available and suddenly it is expected of them and they embrace that, so much so, that the typical group greeting now is "Getting ship buffs"

So great example, When Turbine put in some convoluted system of using inferior products like pots, getting resist was a problem. They make easy to acquire, cost effective, system that provides a superior product and the vast population puts using them into their questing routine and the issue with even wondering if players have resist up is gone. When I started casters (Myself included) would either just toss resists on the melee or ask if anyone needs any, some people did use items after all.

Ship buffs changed the game in the world of self sufficiency, with them everyone is expected to have buffed before they hit the quest and lo and behold (on my sever at least) they do. In fact ship buffs are a great example of how the population wants to be self sufficient, enjoys it even, from casters to melee, players enjoy being able to to tend to their own needs in an effective way, and when that means is put out in easy to obtain manners it becomes expected of them.

I'll give an example: I was in a group a while back when ship buffs were new, and someone joined the party and said the typical greeting on my server "getting ship buffs brt"

One of the other players made a snide remark about not needing ship buffs, well, I was not bowing down to cast resists on them simply because they did not opt to take care of themselves. in fact, it seemed the rest of the party seemed unamused that anyone would actively refuse to use a means made open to them to take care of their own.

So. Seeing how fast the entire game mentality changes when players are given the means to take care of their own, I have to disagree about the issue being players like the idea of needing a healer.

I want to express this as well, no matter what some other players have done with dragon marks, or UMD on other races, or anything of that liking, there is not a single viable motive that a class should be required to give up any part of it core nature in any extent to be self-sufficient, otherwise, it sends a clear message that the game is against this. If a class has to give up a core aspect of it's class to obtain something, is a mechanical means by the game design itself that the class is not supposed to have that feature.

Case in point, a divine can swing a weapon with zero impact on their ability to heal, ergo, a Divine can melee. If a Divine had to reduce their ability to heal by some margin to be able to use a weapon, that would have a significant impact on the population and what they felt about the diversity of the divine class. For example, I seldom see a Elf FvS using a Great Sword, yet I see a WF FvS using great swords all the time. I would wager that is because the elf would need to give up a feat or take a splash to be able to use that great sword where the WF does not, thus all of a sudden the rules change in the game.

Sure, some players do it, I see players that splash cleric into the Fighter as well, but it is uncommon and they make trade offs to do so, and more often then not, they are TRed, or twinked ridiculously. I mean honestly Imagine if any FvS needed to splash at least one level of "Melee" to use any weapon. Now the rules the change again, and suddenly, melee FvS is not as freely built as it was, while people would do it, it would change their perception of the population on the mentality behind doing it. Suddenly there is a cost involved.

In this regard, since we have already seen that if the means are put there, the masses of players will use them. We have seen how much a game changer ship buffs are, and the population uses them from the low levels on up, because they matter from the low levels on up.

So, any belief that the problem is the player base,or that players will not change and embrace revision if it provided has been proven false by the birth of ship buffs, while there are always some hold outs they are the exception, not the rule.

[Airgeadlam]

But right now, the system is designed that to be sel -sufficnt on a melee requires a vast amount of favor grinding, gear acculimation and near endless plat funds. In this regard the system while putting the ability to be self-sufficient there for melee, has made the task very daunting and thus puts forth the message that they do not want this for their melee classes.

Ponder this, I have to go shipping, stock inventory, take up inventory space, (5 slots for resist pots, which Ironically my fighter did deal with, along with cure blindness, remove curse/disease, lesser restoration, cure light and cure serious pots, and Haste/Rage pots, and that was just the generic stock stuff). In doing this, it is tedious, I have to shell out plat, inventory space, and hot bars for on my best day

Somehow, it is quite different when my divine stocks on all these just in case, right? To me is a holiday with little ponies and fun and candy. Of course an extended haste from a caster is better than chug a pot every 30 secs, so are the resists. But what is better? Nothing or something? If you run out of ship buffs, or the casters' buff, or die and raise at a shrine with no nearby caster... Better to have a frigging Resist 20 potion, or just wait till someone comes to rebuff you? Chug some pots, or stand iddle at 5% of your health till some divine gets to you? Radiant aura is nice for healing, buf if aura is not there? What if cleric is incapped, or dead? No selfhealing whatsoever? Since it costs plat and takes time, you better die too than heal yourself. Well, up to you.

Self sufficiency is not about being able to do everything all the time, is about taking some time to cover your bases in case there are no better options avaliable. "Oh, oh, but refilling 800hp via CSW potions is slow" (And this at 20, I see plenty of people not using pots at levels in which a single CSW potions = 50% of their health). Yes. "And a divine can cast a Heal and be done with it". Again, yes. But if the divine is not there... Better slow than no health. But no, of course. Stocking on potions just in case is "tedious" and "expensive". Please, tell me which vendor gives stocks of Heal scrolls for free if you're a divine, because I missed it when I replenish my stock for raids and epics.

However,when ship buffs came in, everyone jumped all over them.

In fact ship buffs are a great example of how the population wants to be self sufficient, enjoys it even, from casters to melee, players enjoy being able to to tend to their own needs in an effective way, and when that means is put out in easy to obtain manners it becomes expected of them.

Oh, sure the ship buffs. That actually is against self sufficiency. Before ship buffs you knew how valuable those resists and buffs are. Now new people took them as granted. Ship buffs trivialize difficulties. And then, if they die... hop! They have no means or intention to do something about it, if I die I have someone to cover them for me, right?

And I know plenty of guilds in which ship buffs are afforded by leader/officers, with no contribution (monetary) of the members. So most of those "Oh, I want to be self sufficient by using ship buffs" use them because, yes, they are free. Add a price to use the shrine, and see how many people will complaint. But again, is of course nice if the plat sink is on the divine's side.

I'll give an example: I was in a group a while back when ship buffs were new, and someone joined the party and said the typical greeting on my server "getting ship buffs brt"

One of the other players made a snide remark about not needing ship buffs, well, I was not bowing down to cast resists on them simply because they did not opt to take care of themselves.

Because, of course... No ship buffs = Not taking care of oneself. Not true. I can take care of myself on my melees with no buffs, ocasionally a DW if any divine is avaliable. If not, well, lesser restore pots, restoration scrolls, heal scrolls, resist wands/potions. See? No need for ship buffs. Those are nice, but not a neccessity.

I want to express this as well, no matter what some other players have done with dragon marks, or UMD on other races, or anything of that liking, there is not a single viable motive that a class should be required to give up any part of it core nature in any extent to be self-sufficient

No need to. You can have plenty DPS with a melee and be able to cover the most important bases. Of course, if you want to. What's the core nature of a melee? Inflict loads of damage? Resiste enemy attacks, acting as a wall to weaker members? Tanking the hardest bosses? You can do that, and still be self-sufficient. There's plenty ways to do so. Problem? You must know them.

Here I will grant, it should be better explained at new people when they create their toons. The information provided upon character creation (and the horrible predefined paths) is not enough, so is the info provided in the character sheet.

Case in point, a divine can swing a weapon with zero impact on their ability to heal, ergo, a Divine can melee. If a Divine had to reduce their ability to heal by some margin to be able to use a weapon, that would have a significant impact on the population and what they felt about the diversity of the divine class.

Divine can swing a weapon =/= divine can melee. My wizard can use daggers, and I'm not trying to stab my enemies. Do you? You can melee and heal, but then you give up the other "core aspect" of the class. Offensive casting. My WF FvS can melee (not as well as any decent melee) but his offensive spells are a freaking joke, because of the dumped wisdom. And I could choose Human and Evoker instead, but then my melee would be non existant. Do you play divines at all? Because if you're gonna tell me you can master all three aspects (meleed, offensive casting and healing) easy as pie, then I want to know why.

FvS 20, human. 32 point build (just ignoring the 28pt builds):

15/8/14/8/18/10.... Level ups into wisdom if you want to have decent DCs. So your STR will be 15+2 tome+2 ship buff+6 item+(for the sake of it)3 exc. 28 STR. Are you gonna tell me this STR will cut it at lvl20? And that including ship buffs (which if you die, say bye to them). +3 exc (which not everyone has) and +2 tome that you can or can not get. This only talking about stats. You need to adjust feats as well. Can you afford melee feats into that build, if you want to be an offensive caster?

Short answer: No. You can't do everything on a divine and be a master in all aspects. You have to adjust and pick what it suits you the most, and build accordingly. If you want to melee, you know you will have to do sacrifices. And if you want to cast, you know you must forget the impulse to swing things at enemies, because they will laugh at you.

Same goes for fighters, per say. You can max out STR and CON, enough DEX for TWF if need be, and then dump everything else. You can opt for not buying any pot, ever. And you can play reckelessly no matter the situation.

Or you can opt to splash to rogue levels, or use the h-elf dillys, or splash other class, buy potions, play smart... And you will be able to deal enough DPS, and have enough HP too. It is up to you, you have choices now.

Better healing options for melee? Sure. But I insist, only those who actually care about using what the game offers will use them. The rest will still be running around yelling "HjEALZZ mE!".

[aerosole]

I believe that this is a totally fallacy, and that most players and play styles are nothing more then the byproduct of the system that spawned them, a system that started them out dependent upon a "healer" and they by no other choice embraced what was imposed upon them by the game mechanic.

If the game mechanic changed they too would change with it. Players, all of them are products of what the system crates. If the game by design had self sufficiency built in then players would develop and embrace a self-sufficient mentality.

Have to absolute agree with your observation that players are products of what the system creates. And I believe this is precisely what Airgeadlam is describing too.

DDO offers players a choice the very first moment you create a character. Play a barb with high dps and no self-healing, or play other melees such as a ranger or a paladin with self healing. The game offers this choice. How do players take it?

It bears repeating that players' attitudes among the melee classes, in particular, towards barbarians compared to rangers/paladins sends a very clear signal. Dps is always preferred over self-sufficiency.

You mentioned about what the system creates. On live, DDO creates an endgame system where self-sufficiency barely matters. All that matters is for the melee to deal as much dps as possible while the mob is being held. Every second counts. Every dps counts. When the CC fails, the big chunks of incoming damage means its more important to kill the mob fast, rather than to try to heal yourself. Hence the system encourage the reliance on healers. Ability to self-heal? Not relevant when the mob is being held, and not relevant when that hp you got back with a heal scroll just got wiped away in 3 seconds flat as the mob wails on you.

And this attitude trickles now to the new players. What happens when a new player joins the game, and everyone in the guild tells her that self-healing is irrelevant in endgame, only dps matters? I think we can guess, given the prevalent attitudes about the different melee classes.

Dps is king, and for the newer player, with limited resources and knowledge of the game, given the choice between dps or self-sufficiency, will simply pick the former. And some will do so almost exclusively, and that's where the pigeon-hole syndrome begins. Melees dps, healers heal, and its a downward spiral from there, leading to the healer dependency you so keenly observed.

So yes, "players are products of what the system creates" - this couldn't be more true. But unless DDO changes how some things work, having more self-sufficient options won't affect player attitudes. The system works as a whole; the game won't suddenly change for players who care about dps only just because more healing is available. Besides, as it is, we already have 200 hp SF pots that is not hard to get with the easy u13 quests addiing to SF favor, but my observations in game suggests many players don't think much of SF pots. They certainly are useful, but dps is the only consideration for such players.

The good news is, epics are changing, AC now matters, and self-sufficiency may make more sense over pure dps post u14. Melees dependency on divines will be reduced at least on casual/normal difficulties. This may start a change in player's attitudes. Or maybe not, we'll see.

Look at those fancy (yet ugly) h-elves out there. Fighter, level 20. And oh, yes, rogue dilettante. 3d6 is sooooooo uber DPZZZ!!! And of course, you can't even think on getting the cleric one. That's a waste, right? Want to know how many times I've been told to use Lockania's free feat change to get rogue dilettante instead? Want to know how many people told me, kind of exact words, "Man, using scrolls is a drain, you'll get poor in no time"? Want to know how many of those people expect the cleric/fvs/bard in party to drain their resources in potions/wands/scrolls without hesitation?
...

Player mentality. What we need to change is the player's mentality. Without that, no matter what options you offer for self healing, they will never use them.

Yes, it's the player's attitude that is the heart of the matter. You exactly described the attitude of the majority of the playerbase. DPS DPS DPS!!! Heals scrolls aren't really expensive (yes, they aren't cheap either but any lv20 should be able to afford them). They provide a good source of self-healing that is already available in the current game. But (almost) every player agrees that 3d6 sneak attack damage trumps it hands-down.

[Rhysem]

In regards to greater melee self-sufficiency, I would like to put forth a suggestion that doesn't require taking a feat or grinding favor, and adds a reason for people to consider two of the most useless skills in game: Alter the Heal/Repair skills/kits to recover a percentage of a character's health over a reasonably short period of time. A bonus to the skill could provide greater benefit, though to keep wands/scrolls/potions in play, perhaps using a kit should have a short activation time that can be interrupted without consuming the kit.

Only if they also include the "hug yourself" animation from asheron's call. If so then /signed.

[Orratti]

It is too unnecessarily stressful and basically inconvenient to pug a divine. There is no fix for that but this would do it for getting that divine willing to pike/heal a pug.

Remove the sp cost for cures and heals

[Ungood]

Better healing options for melee? Sure. But I insist, only those who actually care about using what the game offers will use them.

Tel you what,lets put in the better self sufficiency options and see what happens.

I noticed a game wide change about players tending their own buffs when ship buffs came out. I believe the same will happen if Turbine puts out viable self-sufficiency for all the classes. The players will listen and they will respond.

Dps is king, and for the newer player, with limited resources and knowledge of the game, given the choice between dps or self-sufficiency

I agree with you as well, a player will always want to put for the core nature of their class even if the game at end is horribly warped. However, what I am trying to express that it is poor design to force a player to have to make that choice.

Now, case in point, when I started this game, my very first character was a Pally, the raw unkillable nature of the class was what attracted me, and I hacked my way to 20th, starting player, I never questioned if I had to heal myself, because I was given lay hands and heal spells, thus I knew I was expected to heal myself. I am at best a moderate player, but I never waited for a healer, I never felt like I needed a nurse maid, I loved my pally (On his 4th life now ) and I would see other players try to keep up with me, and they would just fall to the wayside, I was a dwarf, so I took d-axes, and I just kept on hacking.

I will say this, I did suffer my last 7 or so levels with the soul-stones in my back pack telling me I was a gimp for not being top DPS, but as the saying goes "your DPS is 0 when your dead"

we already have 200 hp SF pots that is not hard to get with the easy u13 quests addiing to SF favor, but my observations in game suggests many players don't think much of SF pots. They certainly are useful, but dps is the only consideration for such players.

The main objection to SF pots that most melee have (Myself included in this) is the fact that they give -10 to saves and all stats (not Con), and if you use the 200, you take a movement neg as well. Which makes using them an unpleasant option.

What would be an ideal solution is to test the theory.

What would be be a great way to kick off how well players can adapt is as opposed to revising SF pots, make a competitive Pot and see what happens. My idea would be simple.

• Pick a House, like House J (That has a favor reward that almost no one uses)
• add in a vendor that sells Special Healing Pots that heal for 100 and 250 (Same as SF) however, the pots remove casting ability for 60 seconds (Like a Madstone Rage Effect) but do not affect a players stats in any way. The 250 Also have the moment negs to them.
• Observe what happens.

They have nothing to lose by doing this, nothing at all. Yet they won't put in more options, they won't put in diverse options, they won't even try new ideas to expand the game in this avenue.

They put in repulsive options like SF pots, and wonder why players tell other players to not bother with them.

[Sarisa]

The main objection to SF pots that most melee have (Myself included in this) is the fact that they give -10 to saves and all stats (not Con), and if you use the 200, you take a movement neg as well. Which makes using them an unpleasant option.

Specifically why those are obnoxious to non-Barbarians and non-Fighters...
-10 CHA is the loss of 5 Turns on a Paladin, the loss of 5 to saves on top of the other stat losses, and the loss of Smite damage.
-10 DEX is the loss of 5 Reflex saves on almost all classes, which can be a horrible thing to have happen in many areas.
-10 WIS is the loss of 5 Will saves, which while buffs handle MOST Will effects, it doesn't handle all. It's also very punishing to Rangers and Paladins since they most likely will be unable to use spell healing (due to no longer having enough WIS to cast their spells) to complement it, and punishing to Monks due to the loss of AC and reducing many of their DC's.
-10 STR is the loss of 5 damage and 5 to-hit, which is a much larger issue in the current game to anyone who is not a Barbarian or Fighter. The to-hit may or may not affect you post-update, depending on where you fall on the "curve".

Add on to the cost of slotting or augmentation (or tomes) to make sure you're over 11 in each stat when you use them. Add on to the very high risk of becoming easily helpless when faced with certain stat drain effects that work at INFINITE range (Quori Ego Whip), and several other weapon or mob effects (Flayers, Kai-Teng, Devourer of Dreams, post-update Disease and Poison, Touch of Idiocy, Feebleminded, Exhaustion/Fatigue's DEX component).

Silver Flame potions are excellent if built for it, AND you are a class that doesn't suffer as much from the loss of -10 to all non-CON stats like a Fighter or a Barbarian. The other classes all have much lower primary stat capabilities, and also tend to have a bit more "MAD" about needing more stats than just max STR, high CON, rest to hit 11 with tomes/equipment.

[Ungood]

Silver Flame Pots are the proverbial parable of Giving someone Filthy Water to Drink, and if they are Thirsty Enough, they will drink it,

Ergo the only classes in the game desperate enough to deal with those abhorrent pots are fighters and barbs, and the only builds able to earnest handle them are TS super-builds that can handle the stat damage.

It is just that those abhorrent pots are their only real option currenlty for self sufficeny. That should be a the huge sign that something more needs to be done as the game is painfully lacking in providing any real means of self-sufficiency for their melee classes.

More needs to be provided and ideas and beliefs like those pots do not hurt barbs and fighters as much as other classes needs to be taken out back and put to rest with extreme prejudice.

Progressive positive changes need to be added, that augment and provide for the classes, not these archaic ideas that tear down the class in the name of providing a modicum of self-sufficiency at ridiculous costs. That continually sends the WRONG message to players when you want to inspire them towards self-sufficiency.

[Sgt_Hart]

I would like to take a moment and explain that when I said give, I only meant that such a feat would be available from the list of feats they could select. I have no inhibitions about making an Echo's of Life feat, It was more a personal vision of something that would be am Upgrade to the Die Hard feat, where you take care of yourself and click back 5% of your life every 30 Seconds as long as you are conscious, and not under some negative spell effect like cursed wounds, mummy rot, etc.

In fact, I have no limitations or inhibitions about allowing this feat to be given to all melee classes. Maybe even have it get an enhancement line to augment it faster and further, or even allow it to be used to have a renewing effect that allows a person with this feat to tend another player and restore 10% of their health over the next 30 seconds, useable once a day or renewing like US is, once every 600 seconds.

Didn't mean to nitpick but yeah.. Paladins.. so shafted already..

Regarding mechanic's, maybe have it function correctly with a players healing enhancements/items so if a pally/ranger has devotion points spent, they see a decent return on it.

<WeirdThinking>Giving it a decent cooldown(say 1 minute) with soem frontloaded healing could create a very interesting ability IMO. Say it functions as a HoT, with Decrementing dice per tick. Just for ***** and giggles (CharacterLevel)D(CharacterLevel) decrementing the dice(first) number by say.. 2, while dice amount remains static. Tick it at say.. every 6 seconds..

On live.. that'd be
20d20 (20-400) Mid range of 200
18d20 (18-360) 180
16d20 (16-320) 160
14d20 (14-280) 140
12d20 (12-240) 120
10d20 (10-200) 100
8d20 (8-160) 80
6d20 (6-120) 60
4d20 (4-80) 40
2d20 (2-40) 20
n/a

But at 6 seconds ticks, and 10 of them, that's a minute..

110 absolute minimum healing. 2200 max base numbers. 1100 midrange. over a minute. so on average(1100/60).. 18hp a second.

Of course, front loaded, so its a viable thing to hit in mid fight when you see your at "EEK!" hit points. Further, while this gives a lot of healing(I haven't done devotion item/enhancement math on these numbers), it doesn't do ti at the cost of trivializing divines. To whit: Your not gonna see a No-healer VoD with this, unless you have 6+ viable tanks so they can all take turns.

Slap on even a 2 minute (Mind you, this will take a minute to run its course)cooldown between uses, and you have melee's that can manage each encounter, while forced to slow down a bit, or alternate, compared to an "Ideal" group.
</WeirdThinking>

Anyway, sorry for tangent, but, yeah.. given some thought to the matter of how to make melee's viable in combat while still preserving the Blitzkrieg play-style most melee's seem to like.

[blerkington]

Silver Flame Pots are the proverbial parable of Giving someone Filthy Water to Drink, and if they are Thirsty Enough, they will drink it,

Ergo the only classes in the game desperate enough to deal with those abhorrent pots are fighters and barbs, and the only builds able to earnest handle them are TS super-builds that can handle the stat damage.

Hi again,

I think the position you're taking is a little extreme here. The temporary stat drain caused by SF potions means you need an 11 or better in each of your stats to avoid incapacitation. Given that includes bonuses from stat items, you don't need to be a "super build" to reach that very low benchmark.

It's just something to take into account when building and gearing your character. There are opportunity costs. If you go full-bore dps then there will be costs in other areas.

Thanks.

[Ungood]

Hi again,

I think the position you're taking is a little extreme here. The temporary stat drain caused by SF potions means you need an 11 or better in each of your stats to avoid incapacitation. Given that includes bonuses from stat items, you don't need to be a "super build" to reach that very low benchmark.

It's just something to take into account when building and gearing your character. There are opportunity costs. If you go full-bore dps then there will be costs in other areas.

Thanks.

It is not simply the stat drain to those "Other" stats, which seems to be enough of a deterrent that no other class other then Fighters and Barbs will touch the stuff, which should have been an glaring indication of what you are really getting if everyone else thinks it's not worth it, it is the overall effect on the primary stats as well.

Ponder this:

Case in Point: 10 Reflex Save, 10 Fort Save, 10 Will save, Which means for most melee builds, if the mobs cast it, you will not save against it.

Now to be honest, the only classes in the game that can build up the saves to take kind of penalty and still have a chance keep resisting are Pallies and Monks, and they won't touch the stuff, and rightfully so, you would have to be desperate to consider taking those losses to your saves, especially mid fight, and if there were casters, it's a downhill option, unless you are a TR geared to the nines and have all the items to invalidate your need to makes saves at all.

Another point: 10 to main stats, ergo, Str, that is anywhere from -5 to -60 on a hit, pretty invalidate the entire use of the power attack feat, which now gives you -10 to hit and the same damage if you did not use either the feat or the pot.

For a build that may be all out DPS that is vicious blow to their damage output.

And lets be honest, no barb or fighter farmed for months, even years to get all the gear they need to be max str to have 10 points robbed from them simply for a small iota of survivability.

So, think about it. SF pots are used to survive, but they ensure that the character will never make a save, so incoming damage from all spells increases, AC drops at least 5 points, so Incoming Damage from melee attacks may increase (will increase with the expansion), Overall damage output will decrease (Less Damage per hit and reduction in To-Hit means potentially more misses as well/will be an absolute increase in miss chances with the expansion) so the fights last longer and thus take even more resources to complete.

When this is a melees only option, they really have no option but demand healing from other classes if they wish to survive, and dependency can sometimes build bitterness, especially when someone playing a fighter or a barb sees that they need a healer, but the "healers" don't need them.

[HatsuharuZ]

It is not simply the stat drain to those "Other" stats, which seems to be enough of a deterrent that no other class other then Fighters and Barbs will touch the stuff, which should have been an glaring indication of what you are really getting if everyone else thinks it's not worth it, it is the overall effect on the primary stats as well.

Ponder this:

Case in Point: 10 Reflex Save, 10 Fort Save, 10 Will save, Which means for most melee builds, if the mobs cast it, you will not save against it.

Now to be honest, the only classes in the game that can build up the saves to take kind of penalty and still have a chance keep resisting are Pallies and Monks, and they won't touch the stuff, and rightfully so, you would have to be desperate to consider taking those losses to your saves, especially mid fight, and if there were casters, it's a downhill option, unless you are a TR geared to the nines and have all the items to invalidate your need to makes saves at all.

Another point: 10 to main stats, ergo, Str, that is anywhere from -5 to -60 on a hit, pretty invalidate the entire use of the power attack feat, which now gives you -10 to hit and the same damage if you did not use either the feat or the pot.

For a build that may be all out DPS that is vicious blow to their damage output.

And lets be honest, no barb or fighter farmed for months, even years to get all the gear they need to be max str to have 10 points robbed from them simply for a small iota of survivability.

So, think about it. SF pots are used to survive, but they ensure that the character will never make a save, so incoming damage from all spells increases, AC drops at least 5 points, so Incoming Damage from melee attacks may increase (will increase with the expansion), Overall damage output will decrease (Less Damage per hit and reduction in To-Hit means potentially more misses as well/will be an absolute increase in miss chances with the expansion) so the fights last longer and thus take even more resources to complete.

When this is a melees only option, they really have no option but demand healing from other classes if they wish to survive, and dependency can sometimes build bitterness, especially when someone playing a fighter or a barb sees that they need a healer, but the "healers" don't need them.

And thus the cure is worse than the poison....

[Starla70]

Many interesting points of view here. I have always enjoyed playing a cleric. Just now unlocked FS, so I haven't even tried it yet, I was waiting to TR a toon to it. I know many people do not like playing clerics. However, I think the DEV's need to know there are those of us who do. Not everyone has the same play style. I will keep playing clerics and seeing what I can splash to make it stronger, or which item works better. I do not in any way think they needed to be nerfed. I mean it is insulting to know the artificers have a stronger blade barrier then we do, why make ours worse? Healing in a pug party, only if I really want something from that quest. Never if I can avoid it...why? Okay toon runs into a room having been told, "there are traps there." Toon now at -280 points, gee think you should have waited? Toon types or yells "What are you an idiot get in here and heal me now" Hmmm, illogical request. Intelligence may not be the highest stat on my character sheet, but that doesn't mean I am stupid enough to do what you just did and be just as dead with no way of healing either of us.

This of course is why I have stated on some of my healers "Warning, I can't heal stupid" Anyway, I know there are many places that as a toon, I am a support toon, not the main fighter, and if I am the main fighter, the party is in trouble. I tend to make my toons as healers first, then to ward off undead, then fight up close if I need to. This is the way I like my toons, the people I play with want that, so it is how it is going to be. Don't like it, don't play with our group. I don't see why others can't see that. Not everyone wants to run through every dungeon, use the puzzle solvers and gather the chests and go to the next quest. Some of us like to go through hit boxes, gather the free stuff the DEV's are so nice to leave us that means we do not have to spend real life cash on, figure out the puzzles with our own minds, work on it as a team, and just enjoy the game. I also believe that about 75% of those people are not reading the forums and have no clue that so many choices are being made without them even knowing there is a chance for them to stand up for how they want to play. Which means power gamers have taken over the game and do not like those of us who play to enjoy the game. I find that sad. So if you ever are looking for a Cleric that is there to heal and help the party, look me up or those of us on this thread and the others that enjoy playing a healer. I have joined many groups that just tell me out of no where because they want a live healer not a heal bot that thinks the charmed monster is more important then the fighter that has 5 hit points left in front of her. It is not that I don't pug, but I do keep a list of people that think healers are their personal heal bots. Those I do not join. I think the changes to the Cleric are not good from what I have seen in Beta or in live. It won't stop me from playing them, I just hope so many people with complain the DEV's take another look at it and find a middle ground.

[butcheredspirit]

When this is a melees only option, they really have no option but demand healing from other classes if they wish to survive, and dependency can sometimes build bitterness, especially when someone playing a fighter or a barb sees that they need a healer, but the "healers" don't need them.

But it isn't the only option, there is still UMD.
A single level in a class that as this as a class skill should be enough of a boost to allow most people to use heal scrolls. They may even pick up evasion with a slightly deeper splash, (and trap skills if they have the skill points).

There is another choice,
those that want to be pure can consider cleric/favored soul dilettante.

People often don't want to give up anything to get self healing, and that's fine.
However surely this means they realise they are going to end up building a toon dependent on others.

This actually doesn't bother me, I feel people are entitled to build their toons however they choose.
I just don't appreciate it if people then assume the divine is obligated to fill in the gaps of their build.

However, unless someone is actually rude or overly demanding I will always heal them.
Especially since it is so easy to use a burst if I am in the melee with them.

[hvygunner]

The cleric needs to be the more powerfull along the lines of healing. The healing should be ramped up, and speeded up. The point of this game is to work togather as a team, a rogue, tank, healer, arcane, every class has its perpouse. The healer is one of the corner stone classes for this game. If you remove a class, if you hobble one they all fail to be able to complete there jobs/tasks. The devs, have amped up the monsters, but deminished the healer, becouse we as the players asked them for it. But the repercussion of this will be, the new players, the currant players will be discouraged from playing. Or even playing healers becouse it will be to hard to compete. The other classes wont be able to keap up with there jobs. Fighters are going to die faster becouse healers wont be johnny on the spot with the heals, becouse there hobbled, wich will lead to bullying.
How many of you have heard "healers not doing his job agian." I have found bullying in every corner of this game, which is really quite sad, even on these forums players tear one another down, this is suposed to be a fun team game but there isnt any checks or balances, just a bunch of players disrespecting one another. When we buy a hireling were not soloing we have become a team. some players have found loop holes to uber there charecters up to solo. How many times do we find adventure packs in dungeons from a solo adventurer... How many times have you found a team of backpacks in a dungeon? Hmmm... Im not saying solooing is wrong, im saying this game is meant to be played with a team, when you first started your charecter you meet jeets and his team, then you meet with other players and continue as a team. Ive read many of these posts where players say this class needs to be changed, or that class needs to be changed, but nothing is being fixed for the better. I forsee if the nerfing continues this game will fallow the same path as starwars, it will collapse. We have already started to see the beginning of the collapse.

[Ungood]

But it isn't the only option, there is still UMD.

A single level in a class that as this as a class skill should be enough of a boost to allow most people to use heal scrolls. They may even pick up evasion with a slightly deeper splash, (and trap skills if they have the skill points).

There is another choice,
those that want to be pure can consider cleric/favored soul dilettante.

LOL. This reminds me of the joke

"How do you spot the Half-Elf in your group?"
"They are dead with a scroll in their hand"

Anyway, in reality they could splash 18 levels of divine and really fix the problem, but that actually IS the core of the Problem.

The problem is: as anyone can tell you is not the lack of divines, but the lack of healers, or more to the point, the desire of the existing divines not enjoying being slapped with the role of "Healer".

Thus: Giving more healing ability to divines is not going to make their task any easier, and only going to reinforce the stereotype of roles that many divines have made clear, they do not like.

Thus: The only real Solution is: Giving more , better, viable, renewable, lower level, self-healing options to melee and allowing them to tend to themselves.

Only by breaking a melee's feeling of dependency upon a divine, will break the model of a melee looking at a divine as just heal-bot.

More needs to be done for melee overall, that is true as well, and I for one would like to see far more done for melee, but offering at least something better then those deplorable pots would be a step in the right direction.

Who knows, if they offer something that is not totally disgusting, monks and pallies might even consider using them.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Ungood, I still think you're taking an extreme position in here describing how difficult things are for melee classes. My reason for that is it conflicts with my own experience of the game.

My approach to melee, which was fostered by watching experienced players, is to be able to get through an encounter without needing to be healed to prevent my death. The way to do this is to put your enemies down quickly and not bite off more than you can chew.

The point of this is to do two things. Firstly, it's an attempt to reduce the incoming damage, secondly, it makes the problem of recovery one that can be dealt with outside of combat. You don't seem to accept that SF potion and scroll healing are adequate solutions, but in fact they both work very well under these circumstances. I can and do use both of them in combat too, on my ranger/rogue, but it has taken some work to be able to do that.

My point is that there are already many methods of healing available to non blue bar characters, as well as many methods of damage mitigation from buffs, gear, build and playstyle. I am perfectly fine with there being harsh consequences for melee characters who build for dps only, ignore their healing and damage mitigation options, and don't play tactically.

Thanks.