FvS and Clerics should be OP

[Aelonwy]

I was talking about the Silver Flame/Sov Host/Vulkoor etc. Feat Slot we have on our Divines at this moment.

I was talking about adding in two proper Realms Deities - Possibly Moradin for the Dwarves and Tyr.

Then buffing up the existing ones to equal the new feats.
Say instead of simply getting +1 to Scimitars and Undying Call Elven Clerics/FavSouls of the Undying Court got +2 to all Necromancy DCs, +1/2 to hit and +2/4 dmg with Scimitars and Undying Call 3x/Rest
Elven Paladins of the Undying Court could get +3 To Hit and +3/6/9/12 to Dmg {Lvls 1, 6, 12 and 18} with Scimitars/Falchions instead of the Necro DCs

The existing ones would essentially remain F2P unless you chose to buy the P2P version.

I personally don't see this as in any way OP BUT I do feel that we need more from each Religion choice.

Maybe the Devs could also give us some more House J favour so we can hit 400 {Domains could be the favour reward for this - For those who prefer to stay F2P}.

I see the confusion now. I don't really know how FVS work but for clerics in DDO you are not talking about feats at all. You are referring to enhancements. Clerics only spend AP not feats selecting their deity/faith. I'm all for more faith choices and buffing the faith lines altogether but that won't happen till the Enhancement Pass, if then. P2P Forgotten Realms faith enhancements? I don't know. I'd have to see what they come up with before I would choose to purchase them. True cleric domains would be like actual feats chosen at creation, and would be respeced with Fred or LR or something like that.... Domains based in enhancements could be respeced with trainer. Not sure which would be a better option, nor how the devs would go about it if they ever do.

[Fomori]

I want to disagree with the OP.

I dont think having this notion that divines need to be bumped to increase grouping is the right mentality. The correct mentality is how to do we break the MMO trinity mindset (tank-dps-heals) to allow even more flexible groups.

The biggest problem is the misconception that other MMO players think about their own character. They are fitting it into a role and expecting others to cover the other parts of the trinity. What they should be doing is seeing in what situations their character can fill any of the roles, as that is the best contributor to a party.

It is also important to remember that Paladins, Rangers, and Bards also have access to divine healing spells. Those with high UMD can use wands/scrolls. Artificers can cast infusions, but at a cost of needing potions. Sure, those are usually not as powerful or versatile as a divine caster but they can work when needed. You may need more tactics and take longer but it can be done.

Thus I think we need to bash this "need healer" mentality in the head and start educating the playerbase in that you can succeed even without a FvS or Cleric nannybotting your group.

[Sarisa]

I dont think having this notion that divines need to be bumped to increase grouping is the right mentality. The correct mentality is how to do we break the MMO trinity mindset (tank-dps-heals) to allow even more flexible groups.

Hence GW2.

[KillEveryone]

Only time I'll pug any divine I play will be when leveling 1 to 20. I may do Shroud, but I don't do any other raid or any kind of epic pug on my divine.

Making me more powerful won't make me pug.

What needs to change is the attitude that it is my only job to heal and that melee players are entitled to my SP.

What needs to change is people need to take some personal responsibility for their own HP.

It gets requested that I purchase wands to keep the party alive during quests. I tend to do that so that I can use my SP for other stuff since players don't want to drink a pot because it costs them plat, never mind that I'm being requested to bring my own wands. I've been told it is my job to bring my own wands on a few of the occasions that I did request a reimbursement.

It gets requested that I bring SP pots, never mind that it costs plat, even though melee players won't bring CSW pots because it costs plat.

Sometimes people offer to replenish but more often other players don't care.

It is player attitudes toward divines that is the problem.

[Clatterfist]

Dungeons and Dragons has been deliberately making divine magic users overpowered to incentivise people to "play the healer" since at least 2nd Edition. I seem to remember that they were pretty upfront about it in one of the cleric-based splatbooks.

DDO copies most of the extra oomph over from the base game. They lost a little by excluding domains and by encouraging extreme specialisation, but I think most of the disincentive now comes down to player perception and gamer culture: people expect divines to be primarily used as healers. That's probably not fixable by a reasonable-sized injection of pure power, even on top of the sweet deal that D&D has been giving to healing-capable characters for a long time.

[GermanicusMaximus]

the healing these days is especially fun with all the level 16 newbs running around in complete trash for gear and no clue what they are doing.

Meh, its not that much worse than all the capped melee running around in greensteel and no clue what they are doing

There are some **** good melee toons in this game who make being a divine caster a lot of fun. I simply wish there were more of them.

[Khatzhas]

Domains could get a bit tricky. In PnP, Clerics only have one Domain slot per level: they can't cast more domain spells like they can with spells on the Cleric list. That is why the domain-type abilities bestowed by the tenets of faith in the game currently are limited in some way.
Should they be limited-use SLAs like Dragonmarks or the current tenet abilities, or actual additions to the already-expansive divine spell list that the cheric could cast as many times as their spell power allows?
What happens when the domain spell is one that the cleric already has access to at that level?
What happens when the domain spell is one that is in high demand and currently limited to a class other than divines?

I'm also not sure about Clerics having crises of faith and changing their system of belief as they arrive in the realms. If nothing else, the idea of a God that you could actually meet and punch in the face would be quite alien to them.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Do you have any idea how annoying this is to people who primarily play divines?

I can read the ****ing LFMs too, you know. It's not like the LFM panel shows up for everyone BUT divines....

I especially "enjoy" having people spam me tells to join their group when I am already in a quest, either with a party or soloing. I used to ask whether they really expected me to ditch my current quest just to run theirs, but too many said "yes"....

There really needs to be an option to block all incoming tells except from people in your party.

[Ungood]

I want to disagree with the OP.

I dont think having this notion that divines need to be bumped to increase grouping is the right mentality. The correct mentality is how to do we break the MMO trinity mindset (tank-dps-heals) to allow even more flexible groups.

^ This.. again!

Many see the light here, (pun intended) that the problem is not in the abilities of the divine class but the limitations of other classes.

If someone plays a fighter or a barb and sees that all they can do is play the "Melee" part of the "Trinity" (Melee,Healer, Crowed Control) then they quickly assume that the Cleric must play the "Healer", and that Wizards are "Crowed Control".

Thus the answer is at this point is not in any revision to the Divine classes but to fix the broken melee classes.

We need to focus on building more diversity and ability into very myopic classes like fighters and barbs that new players are attracted to, (after all a Game that boats "Most Epic Combat" is bound to attract people to their melee classes), so that they can do far more then "Hit things with a sword" and we need to augment the starting abilities that existing self-sufficient classes posses.

Case in point:

• Pallies and Rangers should go up to Level 6 spells as opposed to their cap at level 4 they have now. With druids coming out, that will open up the spell book for rangers and that should make it easy on development
• Bards should get to pick any spell from any school, to embody their diversity and randomness.
  
  • They should also get more songs and other abilities as well as be allowed to take Evasion at level 12 and Improved Evasion at 18th.
  
  
• Barbs should get better DR and their Rage should apply a healing when getting hit effect like con-op, but provides temp life, to symbolize that rage carrying them onward into battle, (The False Life HP gained go away when the rage wears off which may or may not kill them at that point tho)
• Fighters and Barbs should get "Quaff" which allows them to use several potions simultaneously to shorten the time it takes to recover life from potions. This shows that Covering yourself at an early level is expected.
• Fighters should get a feat that allows them to regen life "Echos of Life" or something.while they are conscious.
• Regen should be sped up a great deal.
• Bigger and better Potions need to be made available at lower levels to support the increase in HP that players are expected to have.
• Low Level Heal Amp items need to be put in the game. like as opposed to that silly amulet of the brute being a ****** item, have it provide a 7% heal amp to it, so players starting out realize that "Hey! Heal amp is the way to go"

These are just a few ideas that would really change the whole dynamic of the game and break away from the ongoing problem of players making a fuss about needing healers.


Lets be real, Divines don't want to play healer, and making them even more powerful will only serve to enable to them to solo better, not inspire them to heal groups more. So Divines need to be left alone, and the classes that are in need right now, should get the attention to fix this problem.

The only way new players are going to get it in their heads that they need to take care of themselves is not going to come from rude, obnoxious jaded vets giving them a hard time, it is going to come from having the means, abilities, and gear put into their hand right out the starting gate with the notion that You have the ability to cover yourself, now use it.

Otherwise they will play this game like most other MMO's where you have a Melee who only does melee, a Healer that only Heals, and a CC that only does that. And in this game, the Divine already does a lot more then heal, and that means they don't want to only heal. Their diversity has freed them form the confines of roles, it's now time to do the same to all the classes!

But the problem is, they DON'T have the ability to cover themselves, and this is prevalent in this game from level 1 on, for any Melee, even a Pally has to tough it out for 4 levels, being nothing but a sword swinger, till they get some self healing. That needs to be changed, that needs to stop.

[HatsuharuZ]

However, it was done in such a way with such massive diminishing returns that those who invest heavily in AC got horribly nerfed, and will suffer significantly more damage. Spending a month+ grinding out the top current AC gear will get you only a few additional percent of mitigation, not like before where it could give you so much more.

It also is an indirect nerf to the Torc and Conc Op, since you'll always have some more AC that you didn't have before.

Most melees don't have much in the way of damage mitigation right now, which is why they take alot of damage and need alot of attention from the healing classes in the party. The new AC system will take some of the pressure off of the divines and make melees more durable. Also, you won't NEED to grind the top AC gear unless you want to under the new system... or at least that's what I'm hoping.

btw, why are torc and con-op even a concern? They are certainly useful, but they shouldn't be considered required equipment.

[GermanicusMaximus]

The game consists of classes and roles. It's bad enough the d20 system is gone. Giving every character every ability just creates a bland game. I like my characters to have advantages and disadvantages that are different so the playstyle isn't repetitive. And as you said, I am pretty sure most people would rather not have all self healers. It is a social game not a single player game.

The underlying problem to grouping in this game is that the classes are not balanced, but not in the way most people believe.

Divines contribute heals, buffs and personal DPS to the party.

Arcanes contribute buffs and personal DPS to the party.

Non-tanking melee simply contribute personal DPS to the party.

Non-tanking melee have difficulty finding groups because they provide nothing unique to the party. Back in the "Good Old Days", this was solved by effectively limiting divines to buffs and heals, arcanes to buffs, and melee to personal DPS. Most melee players loved this arrangement, because its great to essentially have slaves follow you around while you have a good time.

A lot of melee still pine for those days, and the changes packaged with the expansion to a large degree are designed to move us in the direction of that model. Good luck finding a lot of arcane and divine players interested in becoming slaves in 2012.

If melee don't want to be second rate classes, its time to become first rate party members. That means stepping up, being real team players and taking on a unique party role. Personal DPS is the battle cry, but it simply isn't enough.

Sadly, most non-tanking melee players really aren't interested in equality of contribution, because it could impinge upon their fun. The sparcity of quality AC tanks today tells you all you really need to know about the average melee player's dedication to team play.

Frankly, I expect any classes which provide unique capabilities to the team to be overpowered. By overpowered, I mean overpowered simply by the standards of personal DPS. Their unique team contribution is just something to be be layered on top of that overpowered personal DPS.

In real world terms, I don't expect to work for free. If I just wanted equal personal DPS, I could slack and play a melee toon.

Melee players screamed about "overpowered casters". They are about to experience underpowered casters. Buffs and heals are privileges, not rights. Melee players may soon pine for the "Good Old Days of Early 2012".

[Aelonwy]

• Pallies and Rangers should go up to Level 6 spells as opposed to their cap at level 4 they have now. With druids coming out, that will open up the spell book for rangers and that should make it easy on development
• Bards should get to pick any spell from any school, to embody their diversity and randomness.
  
  • They should also get more songs and other abilities as well as be allowed to take Evasion at level 12 and Improved Evasion at 18th.
  
  
• Barbs should get better DR and their Rage should apply a healing when getting hit effect like con-op, but provides temp life, to symbolize that rage carrying them onward into battle, (The False Life HP gained go away when the rage wears off which may or may not kill them at that point tho)
• Fighters and Barbs should get "Quaff" which allows them to use several potions simultaneously to shorten the time it takes to recover life from potions. This shows that Covering yourself at an early level is expected.
• Fighters should get a feat that allows them to regen life "Echos of Life" or something.while they are conscious.
• Regen should be sped up a great deal.
• Bigger and better Potions need to be made available at lower levels to support the increase in HP that players are expected to have.
• Low Level Heal Amp items need to be put in the game. like as opposed to that silly amulet of the brute being a ****** item, have it provide a 7% heal amp to it, so players starting out realize that "Hey! Heal amp is the way to go"

I certainly agree that melee need to be buffed more than cleric/fvs. I don't know that I can agree with every point above but I do think some higher level healing potions without the ridiculous drawbacks of Silverflame potions would be a good idea. Easily accesible, lower minimum level, smaller amount healing amp items would go a long ways in opening new players eyes to the possibilities. Reduce the enhancement costs of healing amp too. Regen speeds and amounts are ridiculous in a game where most melees have 450+ hp at the very least. DR could easily get a buff because of the crazy, insane amounts of dmg mobs can do to us in one swipe.... now even with 100% fortification.

However, while I might drool at my bard getting better spells... evasion was never part of that class, and improved evasion? Yeah, thats not gonna happen. Paladins and rangers don't get higher level spells according to PnP but with the way this game works and so long as the spells were of limited selection from those levels I would not be truly against it.

I still say it wouldn't hurt to make healing less onerous for us by any of the methods I mentioned previously, ie make healing spells cost a little less, or make healing enhancments cheaper or better or more efficient, or make the animation for healing spells just a little swifter. Any of these changes would lessen the aggravation of healing in PUGS. There is very little the devs can do about players attitudes or behaviors toward each other. More's the pity.

[GermanicusMaximus]

btw, why are torc and con-op even a concern? They are certainly useful, but they shouldn't be considered required equipment.

I would certainly consider them required equipment on any caster I play. Given all the level 20 casters I see running ADQ2 on elite (when they'd prefer to be running it on Epic) just to maximize their chances for a torc drop tells me I am hardly alone in that view.

None of this would be an issue in this game if casters received unlimited spell points (like melee receive unlimited swings of their weapons), but the devs view that as "overpowered". Plus, it would decrease revenue from mana pots sales in the DDO store

[DarkForte]

I join pug raids for fun, because it's not a guaranteed completion/snoozefest like the guild/channel runs I normally heal. Having a 99% chance of success gets boring after completing a raid for the 300th time.

I loved this. Too funny

[Ungood]

I certainly agree that melee need to be buffed more than cleric/fvs. I don't know that I can agree with every point above but I do think some higher level healing potions without the ridiculous drawbacks of Silverflame potions would be a good idea. Easily accesible, lower minimum level, smaller amount healing amp items would go a long ways in opening new players eyes to the possibilities. Reduce the enhancement costs of healing amp too. Regen speeds and amounts are ridiculous in a game where most melees have 450+ hp at the very least. DR could easily get a buff because of the crazy, insane amounts of dmg mobs can do to us in one swipe.... now even with 100% fortification.

However, while I might drool at my bard getting better spells... evasion was never part of that class, and improved evasion? Yeah, thats not gonna happen. Paladins and rangers don't get higher level spells according to PnP but with the way this game works and so long as the spells were of limited selection from those levels I would not be truly against it.

My ideas do not superseded the PnP rules, they would be more in line with what could be called "House Rules" which are not only allowed, but encouraged in the DnD environment to build balance in the game as needed, when needed.

In this case, it is needed.

There is very little the devs can do about players attitudes or behaviors toward each other. More's the pity.

There is much they can do, and it start by breaking down the walls of roles and dependency where it should not exist.

Nothing infuriates a melee player like needing a healer and then having to deal with some pompous vet who thinks themselves better because of the class they play. Which is one of the reasons why I stopped playing pure melee's I have one capped pure fighter and I am never going to do that again.

I mean, in reality pretty much every high end melee player has a Healer, which is why we are so massively unimpressed by people who play divines and make a fuss about it.

We don't make a fuss about healer and we don't make a fuss about healing, just part of the package, if you plan to be an honest end game player, like having a capped arcane. Just part of the game. That is why you never see a well connected raiding guild or channel run cancel on a raid or run for a lack of a healer. We have them in spades.

So make no mistake there are ample divines in this game, tons of them in fact.

We don't need an incentive to play more of them, what we need is a means to allow other classes to be free from the idea of roles, and that comes from removing the limitations of the classes that need diversity to help them along, not making an already powerful class more powerful.

[butcheredspirit]

Dungeons and Dragons has been deliberately making divine magic users overpowered to incentivise people to "play the healer" since at least 2nd Edition. I seem to remember that they were pretty upfront about it in one of the cleric-based splatbooks.

DDO copies most of the extra oomph over from the base game. They lost a little by excluding domains and by encouraging extreme specialisation, but I think most of the disincentive now comes down to player perception and gamer culture: people expect divines to be primarily used as healers. That's probably not fixable by a reasonable-sized injection of pure power, even on top of the sweet deal that D&D has been giving to healing-capable characters for a long time.

Some of it is indeed player perception.
But I think a large reason why divine nukes seem lacking is the enhancement system.
We get enhancements for healing...pushing us into specialising in an area our faith may not even have a huge focus on.
But very little enhancements for offense.

Flamestrike, Ball Lightning and Cone of Cold are all level 5 spells, all dealing 15d6.
Cometfall deals up to 10d12, comparable to Otilukes or chain lightning dealing 20d6 - all are level 6 spells.

Cleric offensive spells weren't originally designed to be weaker than a wizards, they just usually can't cast as many, due to needing to heal.
...Although if you count the domain slot, a cleric has almost the same number of spells per day as sorcerer...
Who knows...maybe the enhancement pass will change some of this.

[Jasparion]

Only time I'll pug any divine I play will be when leveling 1 to 20. I may do Shroud, but I don't do any other raid or any kind of epic pug on my divine.

Making me more powerful won't make me pug.

And to make things worse, if Divines were more powerful, you'd be less inclined to PuG from 1 to 20 as well.

[HatsuharuZ]

I don't think that clerics should be more *powerful*. I do think, however, that they are missing many of the abilities that make them versatile and useful. That means giving them domains and adjusting the cost of their spell amp enhancements. Same thing with FvSs and Paladins, minus the part about domains.

[Quetzacoala]

The reason you do not see tons of divines apply for pug spots on live often is because they are generally more powerful than most other classes already, Very few need a group of melee to do anything and come raiding there are far more underpowered melee than underpowered divines out there... so they tend to stay within known circles. When they see a pug spot up they question themselves before joining.

i.e. should they take the chance and costs or go raid with people they know will get it done? All it takes is one or two bad experiences and they're put in the hole flipping the bill due to someone else.

To sum it up Clerics and FvS are two of the most self-suffcient and adequate classes in the game already, and is the lacking average of other classes generally at thier level keeps them from taking risks - so they do things themselves.

My suggestion to the author of the OP is to roll up a divine - Cleric, FvS or Druid when they come out, then you'd understand why few of us pug them. Personally in any quest I just go solo or take the first people to respond ... You never really need a healer dedicated postion outside of some raid.

My experience playing healers in PUGs has always been a positive one; truth be told, I rarely do anything but PUG when I am playing my healers, simply because I find it to be a rewarding experience.

I cannot blame the many healers who refuse to partake in PUGs though; it oftentimes takes longer than it would to solo or to group with close friends.

[Aelonwy]

We don't need an incentive to play more of them, what we need is a means to allow other classes to be free from the idea of roles, and that comes from removing the limitations of the classes that need diversity to help them along, not making an already powerful class more powerful.

I didn't really disagree with much of anything you previously said. Although, I still maintain improved evasion on a bard is never going to happen.

And I for one, never said clerics/fvs souls should be made more powerful... I said healing should be made less onerous so that pugging has less aggravation. Healing only.

Yes I want my cleric domains, but they are a part of my given class that is completely left out in this game for some unknown reason.