update on Haunting from Eladrin

[Jasparion]

I'm actually liking the look of this NEW Wail.

However I feel I need to ask the Devs for a Boon:

Please Devs can you enable Extend on Wail and Implosion - The Feat needs a Boost and 10-12 enemies is nowhere near 20.

Also its over a fair period of time as well. Not simply an instant "Oh look, they are all dead".

But doesnt this end up back in the same boat where people will want Extend on BB and Wall of Fire and all the other DoT type spells?

[Missing_Minds]

Doesn't it work on wraiths/spectres? Works on most undead. It seems to me that implosion will attempt to trigger on immune targets, at any rate. I'll try to test it out.

It should work on them, providing they are not out of phase at the time. And sorry, I read that as a how, not if it would effect, the first time.

[Valakai]

Thanks for listening to feedback. This is a good change. I think we can lower level of dooooooooom by 1...for now....it will be back though.

[tinyelvis]

This is not a total nerf. Being able to move to other targets actually opens up more possibilities. For one, you dont need to group mobs anymore. Another positive point is that it will be hard to setup mob spawns and mob behavior that is anti insta kill. I have played with great insta kill divines and honestly between them and current pale masters, its the better player who gets the most kills.

I think the best change they could make to wail of the banshee is not to change the spell AOE, timer, or really anything about the actual spell, but rather randomly assign the kill in the kill count to a melee in party.

[Fungi]

this will annoy melees so much more then wail. they are going to wack mobs down to 1 health and bam wail tick steals their kill.

[DeadRabbat]

I think the best change they could make to wail of the banshee is not to change the spell AOE, timer, or really anything about the actual spell, but rather randomly assign the kill in the kill count to a melee in party.

LOL. Now thats thinking outside the box.

[FranOhmsford]

Also its over a fair period of time as well. Not simply an instant "Oh look, they are all dead".

But doesnt this end up back in the same boat where people will want Extend on BB and Wall of Fire and all the other DoT type spells?

Wail and Implosion are Lvl 9 Spells.
Wail and Implosion are Death Spells - NOT DoTs.

This would be specifically for Wail and Implosion as a Boost.

Wall of Fire, Blade Barrier etc. DO NOT need this boost.

I would like if Blade Barrier actually did Damage over Time though - It seems silly to me that I can stand still in the middle of a whirling circle of Blades and take no damage after that first hit.

[Jay203]

Wail and Implosion are Lvl 9 Spells.
Wail and Implosion are Death Spells - NOT DoTs.

This would be specifically for Wail and Implosion as a Boost.

Wall of Fire, Blade Barrier etc. DO NOT need this boost.

I would like if Blade Barrier actually did Damage over Time though - It seems silly to me that I can stand still in the middle of a whirling circle of Blades and take no damage after that first hit.

seems kind of silly that people who can jump over it or flying monsters that can go over it take damage as well
it's double sided
besides, people who stands inside the circle of blades shouldn't take damage as you cast it, yet right now they do

[Vellrad]

Hi everyone!

Thank you for the feedback on the haunted idea.

We've evaluated the Haunted mechanic to be too complex to introduce at this time. As mentioned by several posters in this thread, it's really Wail of the Banshee that is the source of the balance problems that we seek to address, and it's more logical to constrain changes to the spell.

We're planning on removing the death protection from non-boss creatures in Epic difficulty and changing Wail of the Banshee from being a spell that instantaneously kills up to 20 enemies for 10 sp more than Finger of Death, to a kill-over-time model similar to, but still better than, the Clr/FvS spell Implosion.

Wail of the Banshee
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 60 seconds (50 for Sorcerers)
You emit a terrible scream, creating a deadly area around yourself for 6 seconds. Every 2 seconds, two nearby enemies must make a fortitude save or die. On a successful fortitude save, the target takes 1 to 4 negative levels. You are free to perform other actions while Wail of the Banshee is active.
D&D Dice: Slays multiple living enemies or deals 1d4 negative levels if they save.

We're planning on continuing to monitor the effectiveness of instant death effects (and necromancy in general) and will continue to make changes as necessary. (Especially when the enhancements revamp appears. It's possible that the "Haunted" concept, instead of being a debuff, will reappear as a positive effect for characters that invest in the Pale Master tree.)

Well, I don't like it. While better than haunting or h2k, I don't think we want/need second implosion.
Anyway, if you feel you must nerf banshee at all cost, here's my proposal:

Wail of the Banshee
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 45 seconds (30 for Sorcerers)
You emit a terrible scream creating an area of effect based on yourself that kills enemy creatures that hear it. Each creature who makes a successful fortitude save negates death and instead results in them suffering horribly, taking 1d4 negative levels. This spell can affect only 2 enemies, plus one per 5 caster levels (up to maximum 8 at level 30).
If you posses Pale Master III enhancement, maximum amount of targets is increased by 1.

This way, player without acces to epic destinies, may wail only 6 mobs total (7 if palemaster). People buying ED increasing CL of spells will get extra 1 or 2 targets if they invested enough in general CL and if they got gear/ED increasing necromancy CL.
Max amount of target may be affected not by CL, but by DC also.

And whatever you do, or whatever you plan to do, please don't forget necromancy cooldown decreasers for PMs after enhancement pass.

[Shade]

That's actually better than the current version if you don't have a super high necro DC.

I like it.

It superior then the current version esecpailly with a high necro DC.

in 99% of quests killing more then 6 monsters at a time with wail never happens. Mobs tend to attack in packs of 3-5 tops, and tend to have 1-2 ranged/casters in siad packs taht immediately disperse the moment they see you. So getting the whole pack was pretty tricky in a group, and still hard solo with invis.

Now with a high DC you can almost always ensure you get 6, at least 95% of the time if you have the skill to both Run fast between targets and Position yourself very well,

So the solution to there vision of wanting to make the new modes: Epic hard and Epic elite actually challenging, was to make insta kills STRONGER.

Does not compute.

Anyways. trust me Rhyes.. Casters are getting a ton MORE powerful and more important in groups in the update then ever.

[tinyelvis]

It superior then the current version esecpailly with a high necro DC.

in 99% of quests killing more then 6 monsters at a time with wail never happens. Mobs tend to attack in packs of 3-5 tops, and tend to have 1-2 ranged/casters in siad packs taht immediately disperse the moment they see you. So getting the whole pack was pretty tricky in a group, and still hard solo with invis.

Now with a high DC you can almost always ensure you get 6, at least 95% of the time if you have the skill to both Run fast between targets and Position yourself very well,

So the solution to there vision of needing to make Epic hard and Epic elite hard, was to make insta kills STRONGER.

Does not compute.

Where the heck do you come up with these percentages? Do you fancy yourself Spock's cousin from the planet Vulcan?

It is obvious you never played with or ran yourself a very good insta killer. You can currently wail as much stuff as you can reasonably collect, or pull this horde over to some outlying archers for a mega wail. It takes some skill, but the good casters do it. Have you not run Sins of Attrition man?

However, I do agree that changing the spell to function like implosion does bring some advantages. Especially if wings are involved, and eventually, everyone can have access to them.

[sweez]

If the targeting is the same as implosion there will be some issues, for example if you activate implosion while clearing shroud pt1 portals, there's a chance it targets a portal and just keeps trying to kill it lol. These spells need to be hardcoded to ignore stuff like inanimate objects.

Oh and while it's not as horrible of a nerf as it could've been, anyone who doesn't think it's a huge nerf has obviously never ran with a well played zerging PM. Aura + intim and you're wailing at least a dozen mobs easy peasy.

[oweieie]

this will annoy melees so much more then wail. they are going to wack mobs down to 1 health and bam wail tick steals their kill.

Pretty much my thoughts. Also I'm seeing 8 kills, not 6. 6 would make it kinda ****tier than implosion really since implosion kills a lot of things wail can't.

In fact if it is 6 then just switch it with implosion. It's evocation which makes sorcs happy in the pants, it can be boosted +3 DC from past lives, which makes all arcane happy, it kills way more types of mobs than wail, it has a cooler effect. It's win all around.

[lugoman]

Changing the spell seems like overkill. Why not just have a random number of trash spawn with deathward. Casters can wail some, melee can kill the warded. Everyone's happy.

[voodoogroves]

I personally would have preferred a longer cool-down and/or more SP cost on the current wail. 200 SP? 60 sec cooldown?


Honestly, HP scales in DDO. Instakills are still binary. I'm ok with them having a longer cool-down and higher cost than things that just do "damages".

[bringjoy]

Changing the spell seems like overkill. Why not just have a random number of trash spawn with deathward. Casters can wail some, melee can kill the warded. Everyone's happy.

Sometimes, simple solutions are the best. Thanks for the great idea! While the concept of Wail acting more like Implosion could work and certainly Wail needs to be rethought if it can kill "Up to 20 mobs" , I think this idea is even better because it addresses the heart of the matter:

Most people like to KILL in MMOs. This is where the satisfaction comes from for the majority of us, whether we can admit it/see it or not.

Most folks don't like playing: healers, buffers, support toons and the complaints from arcanes on these forums about having to become "buffbots" have been LOUD and LONG, while fighters become nothing but meatshield support toons for arcanes until the mob is below 50% at which point they dance in and hit a button "Poof!" all the mobs are dead.

Unless you are an intimitank, there is little satisfying about playing the meat shield role quest after quest -- just like arcanes get bored being able to do nothing but buff quest after quest. It's not about kill count, its about the feeling of accomplishment. And like it or not, DDO started as a truly team-centric game and failed. Now that it is not team-centric it needs to find a model to support killing satisfaction for all classes, not just arcanes.

[Truga]

in 99% of quests killing more then 6 monsters at a time with wail never happens.

http://youtu.be/Ux_hOAa7Lng
I do this kind of herding pretty much everywhere, thanks to the 30 second countdown. This is actually a huge nerf for this spell. If you think otherwise, you're delusional.

You can currently wail as much stuff as you can reasonably collect, or pull this horde over to some outlying archers for a mega wail.

Yes, this.

[aristarchus1000]

Not sure if I like the new mechanic, especially with the potential targeting issues. Why not just keep the spell mechanic the same and cap the number of kills? That seems to be the core of the problem. I do like the energy drain on successful save, and since that helps lower DC casters.

[oweieie]

This is actually a huge nerf for this spell. If you think otherwise, you're delusional.

Yes, claiming 99% of quests you don't get more than 6 is pure ****. I regularly wail way more than that, hell I regularly supreme cleave WAY more than that. Most of IQ 1 and 2, harbingers and shavarath you're regularly swarmed with 10+ mobs. I don't know which genesis point, or sins of attrition Shade does but mine sure as heck has groups bigger than 6.

[Aelonwy]

Well, I don't like it. While better than haunting or h2k, I don't think we want/need second implosion.
Anyway, if you feel you must nerf banshee at all cost, here's my proposal:

Wail of the Banshee
SP Cost: 50
Cooldown: 45 seconds (30 for Sorcerers)
You emit a terrible scream creating an area of effect based on yourself that kills enemy creatures that hear it. Each creature who makes a successful fortitude save negates death and instead results in them suffering horribly, taking 1d4 negative levels. This spell can affect only 2 enemies, plus one per 5 caster levels (up to maximum 8 at level 30).
If you posses Pale Master III enhancement, maximum amount of targets is increased by 1.

This way, player without acces to epic destinies, may wail only 6 mobs total (7 if palemaster). People buying ED increasing CL of spells will get extra 1 or 2 targets if they invested enough in general CL and if they got gear/ED increasing necromancy CL.
Max amount of target may be affected not by CL, but by DC also.

And whatever you do, or whatever you plan to do, please don't forget necromancy cooldown decreasers for PMs after enhancement pass.

I actually like this suggestion alot. Then again I actually like the idea that time and investment in a character should be rewarded not punished.