Ray spells and you

[Seager52]

This is not a post on how there should be ranged touch attack, however I do like RTA. I get that the ray spells and what not are supposed to be a twitch type play that allows characters to react to them if the run in circles.

What I don’t like is that a spell is able to by pass any other spell that obscures vision or ability to place the target. Examples include; blur, displacement, solid fog, acid fog, etc. The main thing to remember is that our characters are heroic and able to do a many things we as humans cannot, if a dev is able to actually conjure a beam of searing light (not from a 100mw+ laser pointer) I will stand corrected…well sit anyway, sit corrected.

The thought process of a spells against displaced characters I like to think goes like this in their artificial mind(s). “Wow, I really cannot tell where that guy is. I mean come on there is no way I am going to be able to hit that thing…Oh wait, I can just throw this beam of light that I conjure from nothingness and shoot it right at this shifty son of a *****, there is no way I will miss him even though I have the dexterity of a rock and about as good hand eye coordination”

Searing light is a really dangerous spell because there is little resistance to it. With the new AC changes I think two things should happen.

1.) Any non target spells that do not “seek” a target or are AOE should have the same miss chances as melee for blur, displacement, incorporeal, etc., unless the caster dispels the target or has true sight.

2.) Any non target spells that do not “seek” a target or are AOE should also have the same dodge chance as melee attacks with the new AC changes.
These seem only fair and should be for both PC and Monsters.

Finally I believe that any spell that does physical damage such as comet fall should have the same damage mitigation as a melee attack as is with DR and Damage mitigation from armor. Blade Barrier would fall into this as well.

Is this a nerf or a buff? Well in the grand scheme of it I don’t think it matters really, it’s the way it should be. However, I think it is a buff. We will finally have a small way of mitigating spells that in practice of the mechanics are overpowered when used by NPC. Most casters will not see much of a difference with mobs, except they might need to carry TS scrolls or the spell.

The problem is that if when you did away with ranged touch attack you made us compensate for our characters lacking abilities to dodge spells with our own reflexes. In theory it makes it fun, but tell a monk that to actually deflect an arrow his has to successfully hit the arrow in mid flight and now see for far that goes. This is a way to not derail your thought process but give a way of mitigation where some is needed. Everything in DDO should have a way to be mitigated but not 100% of the time.
I am open to hear any rebuttals if my logic is flawed and I am way off base. If this has been discussed or is already implemented and I missed it, tell me. I will try and write my standing on RTA in a different post.

[valarx]

This is not a post on how there should be ranged touch attack, however I do like RTA. I get that the ray spells and what not are supposed to be a twitch type play that allows characters to react to them if the run in circles.

I wouldn't give up on touch attack completely. With the changes in the AC system there is a clear distinction being made between hitting something and getting through armor and just hitting something because it moves around too quickly.

What I don’t like is that a spell is able to by pass any other spell that obscures vision or ability to place the target. Examples include; blur, displacement, solid fog, acid fog, etc. The main thing to remember is that our characters are heroic and able to do a many things we as humans cannot, if a dev is able to actually conjure a beam of searing light (not from a 100mw+ laser pointer) I will stand corrected…well sit anyway, sit corrected.

For AOE spells, that is intentional. You don't really have to 'hit' the target if they are in the area of effect. For ray spells, I somewhat agree. But since we don't have the touch attack calculation in game, they are effectively area of effect spells, just a short line area of effect that usually ends at the first target it hits. You can just as easily 'step into' a ray spell as you can jump out of its path. They are treated effectively as arrows.

The thought process of a spells against displaced characters I like to think goes like this in their artificial mind(s). “Wow, I really cannot tell where that guy is. I mean come on there is no way I am going to be able to hit that thing…Oh wait, I can just throw this beam of light that I conjure from nothingness and shoot it right at this shifty son of a *****, there is no way I will miss him even though I have the dexterity of a rock and about as good hand eye coordination”

I don't know if this is so much a problem with the spells as it is with targeting. If there was a chance of losing your target due to concealment (equal to concealment chance) that would make them much harder to hit. And you'd be 'shooting blind'. None of that is in game currently, probably intentional as dropping of targeting is likely to frustrate players in addition to breaking several coded quests.

Searing light is a really dangerous spell because there is little resistance to it. With the new AC changes I think two things should happen.

I'm seeing more and more items with light resistance on them. Probably so Pale Masters don't get one shot when it comes out.

1.) Any non target spells that do not “seek” a target or are AOE should have the same miss chances as melee for blur, displacement, incorporeal, etc., unless the caster dispels the target or has true sight.

For the purpose of concealment, I disagree. Concealment makes you harder to target. If a spell doesn't require targeting, it shouldn't be affected by concealment (i.e. blur, displacement). For incorporeal, I agree. Incorporeal is more a matter of sometimes being there, sometimes not. So perhaps you 'weren't there' when the spell was passing through your space. And this is something that I think should apply to even many AOE spells. Maybe you were 'out of phase' when the fireball went off. However, I believe force works against incorporeal 100% of the time as it is considered to be existent in both realms (much like ghost touch).

There's also argument that alignment damage (good, unholy, lawful, chaotic) doesn't really care about incorporeal as it isn't really a physical manifestation of energies.

It's alot to work out, but it could definitely make for a more versatile use of spells for casters, figuring out which one works best in each situation.

2.) Any non target spells that do not “seek” a target or are AOE should also have the same dodge chance as melee attacks with the new AC changes.
These seem only fair and should be for both PC and Monsters.

You're getting into a bit of a sticky area with Reflex saves and Dodge % here. They shouldn't stack, because in concept they are the same thing. However, finding the balance between the two can be a bit tricky. The reason many ray spells don't have a Reflex save is because it assumes you have made a successful touch attack (which you've already mentioned doesn't exist). So I'd say let's look at touch attack (which Dodge% and concealment should affect).

Finally I believe that any spell that does physical damage such as comet fall should have the same damage mitigation as a melee attack as is with DR and Damage mitigation from armor. Blade Barrier would fall into this as well.

I agree any spell that does bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing should be effected by damage mitigation. I haven't done any tests on the beta servers to see if this is true or not.

Is this a nerf or a buff? Well in the grand scheme of it I don’t think it matters really, it’s the way it should be. However, I think it is a buff. We will finally have a small way of mitigating spells that in practice of the mechanics are overpowered when used by NPC. Most casters will not see much of a difference with mobs, except they might need to carry TS scrolls or the spell.

It will be a nerf for many casters as True Seeing still wouldn't bypass Dodge% in your example above. Casters are looking at an increase in miss-chance with spells, which is already a huge headache for character casters. I can't tell you how many times my spell has just outright failed because the monster was running at me and because of the way the AI works ran past me before the spell animation completed, thus causing the spell to shoot harmlessly into the floor/ceiling or not fire at all (but still costing the spell point/material cost). Even hard-targeted spells work this way (i.e. charms/holds) which makes no sense, as you've targeted and cast. The mob being behind you shouldn't make a difference. So keep in mind, there is already some 'built in' miss chance due to game mechanics being a bit wonky that has nothing to do with valid sources of miss chance.

For non-casters, it is a definite buff, as it decreases the damage you will be taking no matter how you cut it.

A little off topic, but somewhat in relation. I'd like to see certain spells completely remove Dodge% while they are in effect. Examples would include Holds (Hold Person/Hold Monster), Paralyzing (mostly on weapon effects), and Petrification (Flesh to Stone/Stone Prison). Let's face it, you can't really Dodge if you can't move. Concealment and incorporeal would still apply though as those aren't active defenses. Examples of things that SHOULDN'T remove Dodge%, knocked down, stunned, slowed, crippled, or dazed. These represent limitations in movement not complete lack of it.

The problem is that if when you did away with ranged touch attack you made us compensate for our characters lacking abilities to dodge spells with our own reflexes. In theory it makes it fun, but tell a monk that to actually deflect an arrow his has to successfully hit the arrow in mid flight and now see for far that goes. This is a way to not derail your thought process but give a way of mitigation where some is needed. Everything in DDO should have a way to be mitigated but not 100% of the time.
I am open to hear any rebuttals if my logic is flawed and I am way off base. If this has been discussed or is already implemented and I missed it, tell me. I will try and write my standing on RTA in a different post.

I'm for touch attacks coming back personally, especially with the recent AC changes and having some of the limitations applied to them as you have listed above (at least for many ray spells). Projectile spells (i.e. Frost Lance) are fine to stay the way they are as they should function more like arrows anyway.

[alexp80]

as soon as the targeting system of ray spells will be fixed, I'm fine with the touch attack.

Actually there is already a built in nerf and any smart player can avoid lot of damage from ray/aoe just reacting and moving quickly

[butcheredspirit]

1.) It can already be hard to hit incorporeal enemies, as they do phase out and avoid attacks.
I don't see that a change would be needed here

I agree any spell that does bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing should be effected by damage mitigation. I haven't done any tests on the beta servers to see if this is true or not.

This, like ray spells is something that has changed in translation to an mmo.


As I understand it -
An attack is either subject to spell resistance, or damage reduction but never both.

"Damage reduction protects the creature from weapons damage and natural attacks, not from spells and energy damage"
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=lg/lggt/20040511a

In D&D, direct damage spells are subject to spell resistance.
The damage you take from a blade barrier is magic, and the direct result of a spell, so DR will not apply.
Instead you roll to resist the spell (if you have spell resistance).

However, as we know, in DDO the caster isn't required to make a spell pen check for direct damage spells.
So are left with no DR, or SR check.

Who knows if they will decide to revisit this loophole.

[Urjak]

I have said so before and thus will do that here again:

I would be very much in favor of implementing touch attacks/AC instead of the weird dodge system ... the effect should be roughly the same for melee anyways ... but dodge and the like would then actually mean something for those pajama builds: better resistance versus spells .... also casters could no longer just put all build points into cha/int and con^^

[Seager52]

For AOE spells, that is intentional. You don't really have to 'hit' the target if they are in the area of effect. For ray spells, I somewhat agree. But since we don't have the touch attack calculation in game, they are effectively area of effect spells, just a short line area of effect that usually ends at the first target it hits. You can just as easily 'step into' a ray spell as you can jump out of its path. They are treated effectively as arrows.

AOE in my opinion and in this idea, I dont think should be effected by dodge or concealment. I dont believe I wrote it very clearly that I dont feel they should be effected either, they already have a reflex save and thus your DEX comes into play

For the purpose of concealment, I disagree. Concealment makes you harder to target. If a spell doesn't require targeting, it shouldn't be affected by concealment (i.e. blur, displacement). For incorporeal, I agree. Incorporeal is more a matter of sometimes being there, sometimes not. So perhaps you 'weren't there' when the spell was passing through your space. And this is something that I think should apply to even many AOE spells. Maybe you were 'out of phase' when the fireball went off. However, I believe force works against incorporeal 100% of the time as it is considered to be existent in both realms (much like ghost touch).

Similar to above, we are in agreement I just dont think I make it clear that it was for only targeted spells that normally would have a ranged touch attack if PnP rules.

It will be a nerf for many casters as True Seeing still wouldn't bypass Dodge% in your example above. Casters are looking at an increase in miss-chance with spells, which is already a huge headache for character casters. I can't tell you how many times my spell has just outright failed because the monster was running at me and because of the way the AI works ran past me before the spell animation completed, thus causing the spell to shoot harmlessly into the floor/ceiling or not fire at all (but still costing the spell point/material cost). Even hard-targeted spells work this way (i.e. charms/holds) which makes no sense, as you've targeted and cast. The mob being behind you shouldn't make a difference. So keep in mind, there is already some 'built in' miss chance due to game mechanics being a bit wonky that has nothing to do with valid sources of miss chance.

It would be a bit of a nerf in the light you shed above. However rays do have a good bit of direct damage and I think should even be buffed up a bit to in the mechanics side regardless of this change or not.

A little off topic, but somewhat in relation. I'd like to see certain spells completely remove Dodge% while they are in effect. Examples would include Holds (Hold Person/Hold Monster), Paralyzing (mostly on weapon effects), and Petrification (Flesh to Stone/Stone Prison). Let's face it, you can't really Dodge if you can't move. Concealment and incorporeal would still apply though as those aren't active defenses. Examples of things that SHOULDN'T remove Dodge%, knocked down, stunned, slowed, crippled, or dazed. These represent limitations in movement not complete lack of it.

I completely agree and I dont know why I didnt think about it. It would really boost the use of these spells in general and I think make logical sense (as much logic as can be used when talking about magic, obvioulsy)

I'm for touch attacks coming back personally, especially with the recent AC changes and having some of the limitations applied to them as you have listed above (at least for many ray spells). Projectile spells (i.e. Frost Lance) are fine to stay the way they are as they should function more like arrows anyway.

Touch attack is needed, we have to get within range on melee for the attacks to hit but still have to do the attack roll so it isnt too far of a reach. More over I think that it would give some added benifit to dex builds that really should be getting hit less that other with touch target spells.