Enough with the caster nerfs already

[darthhento]

Hey devs, this expansion should make our toons better at endgame, shouldn't it?

STOP NERFING THE CASTERS THEN!

That is all.

[GermanicusMaximus]

One of the primary objectives of the expansion appears to be to nerf casters to make melee toons feel better about themselves.

My primary toon is a cleric. No one plays a cleric in this game unless he wants to be focused on the goals of the group, as opposed to his own individual glory. However, that doesn't mean I'm interested in being a door mat.

If the caster nerfing remains in the expansion when it hits live, my new play style will be as follows:

1) Self buff, self heal, offensive cast

2) Solo, run in all caster groups, or run in BYOH groups

3) Melee toons can drink pots. If they die, they better hope someone else picks up their soul stone and carries it to a shrine, because I'm not tossing them a rez.

For a long time in this game, people have treated buffs and heals as if they were rights, as opposed to privileges. They are about to be reminded that they are privileges.

Everyone who primarily plays a caster in this game needs to realize that we are now in the post-collaborative stage of DDO. People playing melee toons actively lobbied to get your toons nerfed. You really shouldn't feel any obligation to assist them when you encounter them in game.

[eris2323]

One of the primary objectives of the expansion appears to be to nerf casters to make melee toons feel better about themselves.

My primary toon is a cleric. No one plays a cleric in this game unless he wants to be focused on the goals of the group, as opposed to his own individual glory. However, that doesn't mean I'm interested in being a door mat.

If the caster nerfing remains in the expansion when it hits live, my new play style will be as follows:

1) Self buff, self heal, offensive cast

2) Solo, run in all caster groups, or run in BYOH groups

3) Melee toons can drink pots. If they die, they better hope someone else picks up their soul stone and carries it to a shrine, because I'm not tossing them a rez.

For a long time in this game, people have treated buffs and heals as if they were rights, as opposed to privileges. They are about to be reminded that they are privileges.

Everyone who primarily plays a caster in this game needs to realize that we are now in the post-collaborative stage of DDO. People playing melee toons actively lobbied to get your toons nerfed. You really shouldn't feel any obligation to assist them when you encounter them in game.

Yes. It certainly does seem that way, doesn't it. MotU. Rise of the whining melee, fall of the players. Just in time for the other two competing mmo's coming out this year to get off the ground.

Excellent timing, turbine. Excellent.

I understand your frustration, and personally I totally agree. There is no way my caster is going to be a buffbot for melees who whine. Ever.

If it returns to the buff-and-hold days, I go find another game.

Those old epics were ********. We all knew it. The devs knew it.

Why they are doing a 180 on this issue is beyond me; except, as everyone else seems to point out - they DO seem to be listening to a very small minority of forum posters who have played this game to death.

might I suggest we just award those 8 guys a 'you win ddo' hat, so they can go on to other games, and let us enjoy our game for another few years (of profit for turbine?)

[McFlay]

One of the primary objectives of the expansion appears to be to nerf casters to make melee toons feel better about themselves.

My primary toon is a cleric. No one plays a cleric in this game unless he wants to be focused on the goals of the group, as opposed to his own individual glory. However, that doesn't mean I'm interested in being a door mat.

If the caster nerfing remains in the expansion when it hits live, my new play style will be as follows:

1) Self buff, self heal, offensive cast

2) Solo, run in all caster groups, or run in BYOH groups

3) Melee toons can drink pots. If they die, they better hope someone else picks up their soul stone and carries it to a shrine, because I'm not tossing them a rez.

For a long time in this game, people have treated buffs and heals as if they were rights, as opposed to privileges. They are about to be reminded that they are privileges.

Everyone who primarily plays a caster in this game needs to realize that we are now in the post-collaborative stage of DDO. People playing melee toons actively lobbied to get your toons nerfed. You really shouldn't feel any obligation to assist them when you encounter them in game.

I got it...its totally balanced that casters are so powerful they can buff, self heal, offensive cast, solo, run in all caster groups, and laugh at the poor pathetic melees trying to self heal in quests and refuse to rez them if they die.

So we have a game where melees are often heavily reliant on casters, and casters are not reliant at all on melees for anything, ever. Epic game design turbine!

I love the posts like yours that beat around the bush how melees are second rate in this game, but any nerf to casters to balance the field a bit is DoooOOOOoooMM!!1! Maybe there are some people around that would rather see every class be fun and have its role in the game rather then half the classes in the game being second rate end game and just a speed bump on the way to completionist.

[Kawai]

...meanwhile the Ranger sheds a single tear for all the melee/caster nerf-fights.

[DeafeningWhisper]

...meanwhile the Ranger sheds a single tear for all the melee/caster nerf-fights.

While Paladins envy how more powerful Rangers are then them.

[Forzah]

As a lvl 25 you will be stronger than before, not weaker

[deahamlet]

As a lvl 25 you will be stronger than before, not weaker

For sorcerers our spells are often hard capped so extra levels does Zero.
Others have done the math, with grinding to level 25 and clickies and everything under the sun you will have the current level 20 power you enjoy. I call it a nerf to grind hard to get exactly where I am now... And I hate clickies to boot too.

For wizards what is the point of 60dc (as some are touting, that's with pls, completionist, gear maxed) if killing a few rats returns you to -10dc or more for a couple minutes. Oh I'm supposed to enjoy higher DCs for my mass hold and disco and then either yawn and try not to sleep while melee bang on the mobs? Or pretend I'm a sorcerer with way less dmg, less dps gear and sp? Don't mind me if I take my toys and go tr into a sorc. Or go play idk Tera or Guild Wars 2 which have better graphics, more interesting gameplay and very unique ways of doing quests (gw2). DDO offered me dnd style complex character building and a point to grinding. Wow clones die fast.

For my poor FvS... Implosion ticks one at a time, second victim -2dc, third victim -2dc... Essentially pointless. I don't have the feat liberties wizards have to boost necro and evo DCs to the heavens. And everyone always whines if we kite TRASH through bb "stand still so I can hit it and suck up all your mana with my **** for nothing defenses that are in the minus". I can solo quests, or I can have some fun imploding once every minute running to the boss while healing quests and raids. I'm going to say no matter what, exalted angel does not compensate for ruining my implosion. I have zero interest in being nothing but a healer aka a healbot. On that topic, I am entertained by Shade asking for "healer" and "haster" in his thread, betrays his opinion on divines and wizards. Blechs.

So no. The epic destinies do not make up for the nerfs.

[xSeverinax]

I guess I will say my goodbyes to you lot now then. Have fun in whatever game you decide to go play. Of course - if you actually meant what you were saying you would just get on and do it, rather than come in here making a big song and dance about it.

[eris2323]

I guess I will say my goodbyes to you lot now then. Have fun in whatever game you decide to go play. Of course - if you actually meant what you were saying you would just get on and do it, rather than come in here making a big song and dance about it.

Ah but you forget.... there's still time for turbine to change their mind, and not cave to the whines of sub-par melee players....

Perhaps you'll have to deal with us just a little longer.

You've got at least 2 weeks left before the expansion goes live; I'm sure most will wait - and complain in the meantime.

If the devs listened to the 8 dudes on here who have outgrown the game, surely they will listen to the 80 who are asking them not to ruin the game at the expense of a tiny minority.

Maybe.

Or, Turbine can lose money - No skin off my back, I'm not a shareholder.

[Alcedes]

honestly, for every one person who is lost due to being "nerfed", they will probably gain 3 more who appreciate the class balance. i dont think turbine is sweating this.

[eris2323]

honestly, for every one person who is lost due to being "nerfed", they will probably gain 3 more who appreciate the class balance. i dont think turbine is sweating this.

Excellent. I'm glad you are sure that they are perfectly safe in their business plan, you being privvy to the entire thing.

I seem to recall another game that thought it was safe... till a certain update....

[voodoogroves]

honestly, for every one person who is lost due to being "nerfed", they will probably gain 3 more who appreciate the class balance. i dont think turbine is sweating this.

These changes don't achieve class balance. Casters can do X, Y and Z. All three of them currently are pretty well ahead of melees in terms of power achieved versus effort required (a well-geared, insane melee vet outstrips newbie casters, etc.)

Let's call "X" DPS, "Y" CC and "Z" instakills / special abilities.

X and Y are still valid; HTK just makes it so you can't make a fun "Z" caster anymore.

It in no way changes the balance between melee and casters. The gearing required and weapon-implements is honestly a decent step, but that really only impacts a few casters who had already kinda stepped away from the top tier by trying to melee at the same time.




Frankly, the truth is in some grey area. We have threads talking about not nerfing casters and instead boost melees, then similarly threads talking about how Nightmare on weapons needs to be nerfed (and it is one of the best bridge effects for low-geared melee in the game currently), threads about not rewarding mediocrity, threads about how if the fighter past life really is 5% to hit then it's too strong ... and of course the truth threads that remind everyone that fresh to 20 new casters are not dominating epics and it is just the best of the best soloing eChains.



My worry is the same thing it was in the spell pass. Instead of being able to do "tactics" or "damage" or "special abilities / instakills" we're going to quickly devolve into a game where everyone is some flavor of damage. There will be no more instakills - pale masters will do a certain amount of DPS, but it's necrotic. Fire savants will do similar in scale, but it's fire. Melee DPS classes will do essentially the same but "with weapons". The game will become less and less truly varied in its nuanced combat complexity, and instead be more and more of the same thing that just looks different on the outside.

[DeafeningWhisper]

My worry is the same thing it was in the spell pass. Instead of being able to do "tactics" or "damage" or "special abilities / instakills" we're going to quickly devolve into a game where everyone is some flavor of damage. There will be no more instakills - pale masters will do a certain amount of DPS, but it's necrotic. Fire savants will do similar in scale, but it's fire. Melee DPS classes will do essentially the same but "with weapons". The game will become less and less truly varied in its nuanced combat complexity, and instead be more and more of the same thing that just looks different on the outside.

That's my fear, that Turbine is shooting for "Gauntlet" not DnD...

The funniest thing I hear from melees is that "insta-kills are the easy bouton" and they are glad they are nerfing them, because we all know that hopefully kill stealing a sorc between nukes or beating on held mobs is "hard".

[MRMechMan]

HTK just makes it so you can't make a fun "Z" caster anymore.

It in no way changes the balance between melee and casters.

Yes, making instakills useless for sorcs/wizards/fvs/clr in no way makes them weaker.

[voodoogroves]

Yes, making instakills useless for sorcs/wizards/fvs/clr in no way makes them weaker.

It does kinda give a kick in the privates to people who really wanted to do "Z", and I'm sure there are hurt feelings there. My PM is still dual-spec'd w/ enchant and necro - I never respec'd after the last pass where you could finally kill things in epics.

I used him mostly to farm epics prior to the update when you could kill in epics. I suspect I could do the same going forward. However, I also know I'm pretty much a moron, and really really want another bard so may TR that toon into something truly gimpy.

[McFlay]

These changes don't achieve class balance. Casters can do X, Y and Z. All three of them currently are pretty well ahead of melees in terms of power achieved versus effort required (a well-geared, insane melee vet outstrips newbie casters, etc.)

Let's call "X" DPS, "Y" CC and "Z" instakills / special abilities.

X and Y are still valid; HTK just makes it so you can't make a fun "Z" caster anymore.

You forgot about W, which is self healing. I wouldn't have any issues if a caster could be really good at W, X, Y, or Z, and maybe mediocre at one of two of the others, but why should casters be really good at W, X, Y, and Z, when melees are only good for X?

This is the first incarnation of DnD I've played where a cleric can cause more death and destruction then a paladin. Class balance is totally jacked up. I'd rather see the classes all have their distinct styles then expanding the roles of melees, because whats the point of classes at all if every class can do W, X, Y, and Z?

[Aalric]

forgot monks Shade - everyone seems to be forgetting monks,

[Shade]

forgot monks Shade - everyone seems to be forgetting monks,

Didn't forget them. Exactly how are monks nerfed?

They seem to be getting a pretty masive buff to their stances, benefit greatly from armor class and dodge updates and generally no longer suffer any to hit issues since verything in the expansion is very low AC. They are also the ONLY class to have a very much 100% class-centric ED that other classes cant benefit from.

Seems like monk love to me.