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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by donblas View Post
    I don't think they need a 20 anymore.
    I don't think there will BE a "20" anymore ...

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by razmataz_2000 View Post
    I don't think there will BE a "20" anymore ...
    Sad but true

  3. #103
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    You really want to see some mediocrity: Keep your eyes on the 50% "ball"
    Here's the table with the minimum + to hit that you need to hit certain ACs, plus how much you have to increase "bump" your to hit to get to the next actual increase.
    (assuming weapon proficiency, because if you aren't using a proficient weapon, you are gimp)

    Code:
     Add 5 to any of these figures while in power attack or combat expertise mode (-5 to hit)
    AC                  Hit chance
        0.5      0.55     0.6      0.65     0.7      0.75     0.8      0.85     0.9      0.95
    30   3 (+3)   6 (+3)   9 (+3)  12 (+3)  15 (+3)  18 (+3)  21 (+3)  24 (+3)  27 (+3)  30
    35   6 (+3)   9 (+4)  13 (+3)  16 (+4)  20 (+3)  23 (+4)  27 (+3)  30 (+4)  34 (+3)  37
    40   8 (+4)  12 (+4)  16 (+4)  20 (+4)  24 (+4)  28 (+4)  32 (+4)  36 (+4)  40 (+4)  44
    45  10 (+5)  15 (+4)  19 (+5)  24 (+4)  28 (+5)  33 (+4)  37 (+5)  42 (+4)  46 (+5)  51
    50  12 (+5)  17 (+5)  22 (+5)  27 (+5)  32 (+5)  37 (+5)  42 (+5)  47 (+5)  52 (+5)  57
    55  15 (+5)  20 (+6)  26 (+5)  31 (+6)  37 (+5)  42 (+6)  48 (+5)  53 (+6)  59 (+5)  64
    60  17 (+6)  23 (+6)  29 (+6)  35 (+6)  41 (+6)  47 (+6)  53 (+6)  59 (+6)  65 (+6)  71
    65  19 (+7)  26 (+6)  32 (+7)  39 (+6)  45 (+7)  52 (+6)  58 (+7)  65 (+6)  71 (+7)  78
    70  21 (+7)  28 (+7)  35 (+7)  42 (+7)  49 (+7)  56 (+7)  63 (+7)  70 (+7)  77 (+8)  85
    75  24 (+7)  31 (+8)  39 (+7)  46 (+8)  54 (+7)  61 (+8)  69 (+7)  76 (+8)  84 (+7)  91
    So, to hit AC 30 50% of the time, you need a base to hit of 3. To go up to .55, you'd need to add 3 to hit.
    Adding 5 to hit still only gets you a +5% chance to hit.

    So, rule of thumb is: to get +5% to hit, add 10% of the targets AC in increased attack bonus.



    Want to see the numbers for the cost of 1 feat and adding precision?
    Pretty much shifts the whole table 1 spot to the left, as expected. <-- keep eyes on the 50% prize
    You can see the "bump" size (in brackets) isn't affected regardless of power attack, or precision style bonuses.

    Code:
    With precision or point blank shot +5% bonus
    AC                  Hit chance
        0.5      0.55     0.6      0.65     0.7      0.75     0.8      0.85     0.9      0.95
    30   0 (+3)   3 (+3)   6 (+3)   9 (+3)  12 (+3)  15 (+3)  18 (+3)  21 (+3)  24 (+3)  27
    35   2 (+4)   6 (+3)   9 (+4)  13 (+3)  16 (+4)  20 (+3)  23 (+4)  27 (+3)  30 (+4)  34
    40   4 (+4)   8 (+4)  12 (+4)  16 (+4)  20 (+4)  24 (+4)  28 (+4)  32 (+4)  34 (+4)  38
    45   6 (+4)  10 (+5)  15 (+4)  19 (+5)  24 (+4)  28 (+5)  33 (+4)  37 (+5)  42 (+4)  46
    50   7 (+5)  12 (+5)  17 (+5)  22 (+5)  27 (+5)  32 (+5)  37 (+5)  42 (+5)  47 (+5)  52
    55   9 (+6)  15 (+5)  20 (+6)  26 (+5)  31 (+6)  37 (+5)  42 (+6)  48 (+5)  53 (+6)  59
    60  11 (+6)  17 (+6)  23 (+6)  29 (+6)  35 (+6)  41 (+6)  47 (+6)  53 (+6)  59 (+6)  65
    65  13 (+6)  19 (+7)  26 (+6)  32 (+7)  39 (+6)  45 (+7)  52 (+6)  58 (+7)  65 (+6)  71
    70  14 (+7)  21 (+7)  28 (+7)  35 (+7)  42 (+7)  49 (+7)  56 (+7)  63 (+7)  70 (+7)  77
    75  16 (+8)  24 (+7)  31 (+8)  39 (+7)  46 (+8)  54 (+7)  61 (+8)  69 (+7)  76 (+8)  84
    Look at how low the values are for 50% hit rate. Divine power alone is giving a lvl20 toon +20 to hit.

    Now imagine an INT based arty style toon with both spots for precision + point blank shot. <--Keep concentrating on that 50% threshold if you dare

    Code:
    With precision and point blank shot +10% bonus
    AC                  Hit chance
        0.5      0.55     0.6      0.65     0.7      0.75     0.8      0.85     0.9      0.95
    30  -3 (+3)   0 (+3)   3 (+3)   6 (+3)   9 (+3)  12 (+3)  15 (+3)  18 (+3)  21 (+3)  24
    35  -1 (+3)   2 (+4)   6 (+3)   9 (+4)  13 (+3)  16 (+4)  20 (+3)  23 (+4)  27 (+3)  30
    40   0 (+4)   4 (+4)   8 (+4)  12 (+4)  16 (+4)  20 (+4)  24 (+4)  28 (+4)  32 (+4)  34
    45   1 (+5)   6 (+4)  10 (+5)  15 (+4)  19 (+5)  24 (+4)  28 (+5)  33 (+4)  37 (+5)  42
    50   2 (+5)   7 (+5)  12 (+5)  17 (+5)  22 (+5)  27 (+5)  32 (+5)  37 (+5)  42 (+5)  47
    55   4 (+5)   9 (+6)  15 (+5)  20 (+6)  26 (+5)  31 (+6)  37 (+5)  42 (+6)  48 (+5)  53
    60   5 (+6)  11 (+6)  17 (+6)  23 (+6)  29 (+6)  35 (+6)  41 (+6)  47 (+6)  53 (+6)  59
    65   6 (+7)  13 (+6)  19 (+7)  26 (+6)  32 (+7)  39 (+6)  45 (+7)  52 (+6)  58 (+7)  65
    70   7 (+7)  14 (+7)  21 (+7)  28 (+7)  35 (+7)  42 (+7)  49 (+7)  56 (+7)  63 (+7)  70
    75   9 (+7)  16 (+8)  24 (+7)  31 (+8)  39 (+7)  46 (+8)  54 (+7)  61 (+8)  69 (+7)  76
    Kind of freaking amazingly low, isn't it? and this doesn't even take into account grazing style hits that supposedly work on a 2+.

    Want to play a melee, or a self healing bluebar that ALSO melees, and possibly dots and casts death spells off cooldowns??
    Last edited by Stillwaters; 06-14-2012 at 11:01 AM.
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stillwaters View Post
    Kind of freaking amazingly low, isn't it? and this doesn't even take into account grazing style hits that supposedly work on a 2+.

    Want to play a melee, or a self healing bluebar that ALSO melees, and possibly dots and casts death spells off cooldowns??
    So basically a cleric who uses a +5 weapon and divine power and 10 strength will hit more than 50% of the time on mobs of 65 AC (which is one of the higher AC's in the game)? If the same cleric focused on strength and had 40 strength he would only gain 20% to his successful hits.

    What this tells me is that if you're a cleric you should always have some kind of weapon for debuffing enemies (cursespewing, destruction etc...) so that the melee types can carry dps weapons.
    Cannith - Noehealz, Protectorjon, Noebuffs, Mortion

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by morticianjohn View Post
    So basically a cleric who uses a +5 weapon and divine power and 10 strength will hit more than 50% of the time on mobs of 65 AC (which is one of the higher AC's in the game)? If the same cleric focused on strength and had 40 strength he would only gain 20% to his successful hits.

    What this tells me is that if you're a cleric you should always have some kind of weapon for debuffing enemies (cursespewing, destruction etc...) so that the melee types can carry dps weapons.
    Hmm maybe "Stop rewarding mediocrity" was an incorrect title. It looks like they are rewarding pretty much anything anyone wants to throw together.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZzpxpzZ View Post
    You are all missing the real purpose of the changes to hit and AC, and it has nothing to do with skilled or unskilled players.

    The new system supports many more builds than the old system does.

    The amount of pure tanks out there is so small that I find it hard to believe turbine cares, and nor should they, about the difference between the players who wish they were tanks but dont know how to build them and those who truely are geared and built properly as an AC tank today on live.

    The new system means you dont have to invest 100% into AC to get usable end game AC. In the current game system AC is worthless at end game for the vast majority of character builds, REGARDLESS of their skill. No matter how you look at it, that is not a good design. PnP was never intended to have players running around at level 20 in full +14 equipment.

    The absolute greatest thing about DDO is the versatility available in character builds, and this change increases the depth of the vast majority of possible character builds while slightly harming some very few builds.

    Is this the best possible solution to the problem? Probably not, at least I think a better system would be making the mitigation curve linear in regards to time to live (e.g. The same amount of AC it would take to go from 0% to 10% avoidance would be the same as from 50% to 55% resulting in AC always reducing the same percentage of incoming hits at all times) regardless, whether it is the ideal choice, it is still much better than the current system in live.

    You don't have to be a bad player to not want to play a full AC tank yet still wish AC could actually mean SOMETHING.
    Personally I don't think this is about rewarding mediocrity - we've complained for years how AC is pointless at a certain point and you've had more fighters and such running around in PJs than heavy armor. Heavy armor have just been for looks - not because they actually provided 'armor'.

    I understand that they really tanky types will get hit and that it 'rewards' people that really don't invest in AC but it also does something that the old system didn't - it makes armor valid. That armor is about miss, glance and damage mitigation while the opposite is about avoiding getting hit. The old system just baked everything into the same AC - making a damage avoiding class and the heavy armored one the same.

    But the reality is that a monk tank is quite different from say a paladin tank yet the old system simply mashed it together.

    There are no 'perfect' solutions but it's better to make AC meaningful again across the entire spectrum then a completely hit or miss like now.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by morticianjohn View Post
    So basically a cleric who uses a +5 weapon and divine power and 10 strength will hit more than 50% of the time on mobs of 65 AC (which is one of the higher AC's in the game)? If the same cleric focused on strength and had 40 strength he would only gain 20% to his successful hits.

    What this tells me is that if you're a cleric you should always have some kind of weapon for debuffing enemies (cursespewing, destruction etc...) so that the melee types can carry dps weapons.
    Well, you are close. My cleric swings a Terror, because melee attacks are more powerful than taking the time, and mana, to cast insta-kill spells.

    The melee players, who want to see casters nerfed? They can do their own debuffing. My debuffing would be taken for granted as much as my buffs and heals are.

  8. #108
    Community Member Stillwaters's Avatar
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    The instakill proc "nightmares" from Terror, is now found in random lootgen.
    =you dont need to deal damage to down mobs quickly

    LitII lightning strikes, incineration etc etc..also random loot

    Im still a little queasy,
    after showing an Artificer with around +6 to hit is hitting EMalicia 50% of the time and tons of weapon proc effects..
    on fusillade..
    with a runearm spamming..
    plus glancing blows..
    and in medium armors...


    And I built the Rifleman in my sig (not completionist yet)
    Last edited by Stillwaters; 06-14-2012 at 12:00 PM.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by LightBear View Post
    Because you rolled a 20. It's the same as rolling a 1 that always means a failure.
    I did say regularly, which to me means more than on 5% of the swings.
    DDO: If a problem cannot be solved by the application of DPS, you're not applying enough.

  10. #110
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    More than once in this thread I have heard people say " AC is uselss in epics " blah blah blah, the same stuff they have been spewing for years. Well, ok fine, they want to make AC effective for everyone? Great, thats a good idea. But how come it wont be affective for me anymore? You see, I can get my AC currently to 117 ( with bard )
    Proof -----> http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...aling+doubters got another point since.

    And I worked my tail off for that, over the course of many years. One big reason is because I like to solo. I dont like grouping with new players much for low level content. Dont want to wait for them to get shipbuffs, rrepair, dont wanna lose 10% almost every run ETC. End game, ill take new people in any pug, any time, and show them the raid. But now I fear my solo days are over. Ive soloed Ebob, vod, ToD pt1, any non epic, non raid on any difficulty ETC, never used one SF pot. I like playing alone. I listen to music, i go get beer without havin to worry about what my group is doing...... And I pay to play the game. I dont care if they reward mediocrity all day long. Thats fine, give the new people an easy ride to make money, great. I dont care. But why do you have to take away my playstyle? That isnt right. If someone puts the time in to get epic AC, then let them still get missed 95% of the time. I mean, with DA, grazing hits, and now mobs pass fort, youve done enough to make soloing end game content more difficult. It is wrong to implement this system.

  11. #111
    2017 DDO Players Council Starla70's Avatar
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    after reading this thread through, I think the best thing said is the cure seems worse then the disease was. I have spent hours on the Beta on several different toon types, different races, druid, levels from 1 to 20. With every update something new was broken and not much fixed from the time before. That concerns me. It is in all levels and each class it seems. I believe more was attempted then should have been. I only got to be around one DEV, and he was running through content so fast just to see if it worked. So what we have on the 25th should be interesting to say the least. From reading through forums we seem to have a wide split between power gamers and those who are here because they liked D&D and came here in the next big thing for it. I am not sure there is a happy medium for either group. I fall mostly into the D&D group. I don't like the limitations here vs pen and paper, but it has to be accepted. It is more little things like the role play part, which would be as impossible as pleasing each one of us. However, I hear from so many well WOW had this we need it...suddenly we have pets that do nothing but follow us around, cute, I like furry critters have them at my house. Changing the systems to a more WOW like to please the power gamers, not so much. My Grandpa taught me it is ain't broke don't fix it. Fix the things that are really broken first. That seems to be an issue here. I agree not all of the systems worked great, but they did work. Now, having my toon go invisible so only my weapon and shield can be seen, that I would fix first. Breaking healing, then radiant servant, then...need I go on? None of these are fixed, so they moved on to nerfing this and that changing the whole combat system, Ac rules, this spell and that one...mean while the problems just keep building. No amount of math will fix that. Still waters, I really like your posts, I have learned so much from them. I tend to just enjoy the play and haven't learned all the facts behind the play.

  12. #112
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    I don't know why you would bother with debuffing weapons for a monsters ac to give you a 5% more chance to hit.

    Lowering fortitude saves will be about the only debuff worth it.

  13. #113
    Ultimate Uber Completionist Dalsheel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maximadan View Post
    So OP says that adding +5 to attack doesn't change anything

    but in other threads everybody complained that losing 5 to take power attack feat is not worth it

    so +5 is still worth it

    and some people doesn't like to grind past lifes

    i like my toons at 1-3 life maximum

    so should i be punished and cannot compete with multi-Tr?
    I can understand you don't like TRing much, but don't you think that people who had the patience to do so should be rewarded? As others have said before me, there has to be a reward for putting in the work for say 20 TRs. A reward that's well worth the effort.

    I'm not suggesting you should be punished for not doing 10+ lives on a single toon, but are you suggesting that my main toon that is currently on life 21 should not be superior to a 1st, 2nd or 3rd life toon?

    Even more so, people who have multi-TR toons have done so prior to all these changes. This means that turbine is punishing all these people for their hard work by reducing the benefits they get.

    Would I have done 3xFighter lives if i knew this was coming? NO!
    Would I have spent countless money on XP potions to have my toon ready for the upcoming xpack on time? NO!
    Would I be running epic OOB every day to get the shard of the spectral gloves for the +4to-hit? NO!
    Would I have spent countless hours farming the +3 dodge rune for my DT armor? NO!
    These questions can go on endlessly... I hope you get my point here.

    As the OP said, the upcoming changes reward mediocrity and punish the well-built and well-geared toons.

  14. #114
    Community Member akiraproject24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MRMechMan View Post
    1. AC/to-hit change:

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376703&page=6 (scroll down)

    To-hit
    Fighter past lives before: 5% more chance to-hit
    Fighter past lives after: ~1% more chance to-hit

    Grinding out gear/past lives or having a good build is fairly meaningless. 10 to-hit used to be a huge increase/decrease in DPS. Now, it is borderline meaningless.

    Particularly for rogues, who now graze on a 2 (and get SA). A character with -5 to-hit (yes, minus 5) hits an epic boss 30% of the time?

    A 40 to-hit melee vs 80AC boss USED to hit 5% of the time...now 55%?????
    A 65 to hit melee vs 80AC boss USED to hit 30% of the time...now 70%??
    A 80 to-hit melee vs 80AC boss USED to hit 95% of the time...now 80%?!?

    So getting +15 to-hit used to give you +65% chance to hit (~200% more dps) now gives you +10% more (14% more dps)

    If your character is good, they get punished. If your character is bad, they get rewarded

    AC
    Grinding out gear for 1 more AC before: as much as getting hit 1/2 as much
    Grinding out gear for 1 more AC now: getting hit about 1-5% less.

    An 80AC player vs 60 to-hit USED to get hit 5% of the time...now 44%.
    An 80AC player vs 80 to-hit USED to get hit 95% of the time...now 57%.

    Almost the same.

    It is good that they are broadening the range of useful AC, but this is just rediculous.

    2. Haunting
    That extra 1 DC that you ground out completionist for is now meaningless

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377267&page=41 (scroll down to Mrwindupbird post)

    It allows you to instakill 1/2 a mob more during the course of the quest. Assuming you aren't waiting after every encounter, which turbine seems to be encouraging. This doesn't push team play, it pushes waiting around for 2min every wail. The faster (better) your group is, the less that necro DC matters.

    If your character is good, they get punished. If your character is bad, they get rewarded

    Stop rewarding mediocrity and punishing those who enjoy building strong, well geared characters.
    I spent a lot of time tweaking high AC on my stalwart and high DCs on my caster...and basically putting tons of time, effort and to some extent money doing it to an almost finishing point. From reading this all of that effort was for nothing...Im gonna wait and see how it pans out but the more I learn ...the easier its gonna be to leave this forsaken game. Its become clear as day that Turbine does not want dedicated players that know and beat the game..they want noobs to come and go droppin cash on the DDO store...and as far as old time players ..as long as you dont create waves and break out your plastic on the store then you are ok too..I know this is good for business but its terrible for people who have played forever and love (or have a sick compulsion) for this game.
    Last edited by akiraproject24; 06-22-2012 at 01:47 AM.
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  15. #115
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    Cool Have to agree with Huty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huty-Shadowrunner View Post
    If someone puts the time in to get epic AC, then let them still get missed 95% of the time.
    While my pure monk can't reach the ac numbers of Huty's, he can still get into the upper 90's. This makes him useful for normal or hard tod's, as well as some other raids and quests. As anybody who has built an ac tank can attest, it is not an easy task. Pastlives, proper gear in proper places, consideration of what to sacrifice all come into play. Most who have built a decent ac tank find the fruits of their labors rewarding however.

    From what I have read, this xpack will kick 3 of my 4 toons squarely in their junk. My monk will be hosed due to diminished high ac returns and monk hosing in general. My pure 20 Warchanter will now benefit groups way less. And my 6th life evoker fvs will be much less likely to pug, and healing a raid like ToD without the current benefits of very high ac does not sound appealing. Also nerfing instakills means you won't see my fvs joining groups as often either. I don't play an instakill focussed toon, but I liked them in my groups. A good one meant I didn't have to heal the manasponges so much in epics. So all of those who cried about instakills, you may come to find that this nerf means healers are even less likely join you.

    Man, am I glad I didn't prepurchase that xpack.
    Vigilantee, Chopzilla, Souledout, Crixxus, Vindikator, Fatzilla

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ventris77 View Post

    Man, am I glad I didn't prepurchase that xpack.

    I wish i hadn't bought it.

    I was expecting new content,druid and epic lvls, instead we got new content, druid, epic lvls and a completely different game where the 20+ TR is the same as the 1st lifer, where all the items you got before are now junk cause the items in the xpack are so much better and so much easier to obtain, where we have to pay more TP to unlock things that are only available in the DDOstore (and i'm not talking about cosmetics), where a raging barbarian with 90 STR hits thing just marginally better than a wizard with 10 STR, where warforged are no more immune to poisons and diseases.

    Xpack sucks bad imo: it would have been way better if they just added new content and druids, without changing the game so much just to get some more $$.
    Cannith: Hazrael--Nyal--Thalax

  17. #117
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    I'm not suggesting you should be punished for not doing 10+ lives on a single toon, but are you suggesting that my main toon that is currently on life 21 should not be superior to a 1st, 2nd or 3rd life toon?
    This. I will NEVER ever TR more than once or twice on a toon. Not my cup of tea. BUT the people who do should certainly be rewarded for their patience/skill/time. No way my toons should be as top notch as a 21st lifer.

  18. #118
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    Quote:
    I'm not suggesting you should be punished for not doing 10+ lives on a single toon, but are you suggesting that my main toon that is currently on life 21 should not be superior to a 1st, 2nd or 3rd life toon?


    I agree - you should be more powerful but i don't want 1-3 lifers to become irrelevant at end-game content

    the shift to AC being more meaningful for newer players is good - my melee with 60-75 ac shouldn't be hit 95% times in every epic

    past lifes should be worth more , but not to the point that without 10 past lifes you cannot play at the end game

  19. #119
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    I think it's hard to balance PLs. People can stack 3 passive ones for every class and doing this shouldn't make them much stronger than someone without. Otherwise too many players will be at a point where either the raids are too easy for them or the raids/epics get balanced for players with much more than 2-3 PLs.
    There are already guilds who only take people with very good equipped toons. And when thinking about the last person who got kicked from such a guild because his equip would not be good enough... I am sure they request some special PLs too depending on your character class.
    And the fighter PL... current version was 0% to hit if you managed to hit on a 2 anyways.
    I remember the discussion about the bards inspire courage song beeing less effective after expansion and think most people said that in endgame good melees hit on a 2 anyways.

    Think there are many feats that should stack at the end of the formula and give +x% hit chance after to hit and AC got compared, but that would result in possible builds which get a 50% hit chance while dump statting str (or whaterver stat they use for attack). So even if they changed the fighter passive PL feat to give +x% hit chance it can only be 1-2% with the new formula without breaking the formula because you got too many of these feats/effects on you.

  20. #120
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    **** you Turbine,how dare you make a game that is enjoyable to 90-95% of the population,please cater to the 1-5% so we don't have to call the whaaaaabulance.You 5%ers can't support the servers by yourselves,and frankly,no one will miss you when your gone,Turbine will continue to make money by providing a GAME(see,no work in that word)that is enjoyable to the rest of us,so do the community a favor,find another game,or better yet crawl out of mommys basement and see what the sun looks like in rl.

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