Stop rewarding mediocrity

[Aalric]

so true snuff - I was thinking of making a final tr on Aalric to get him a +1 to hit but why bother now? He'll be fine without it. Hell, He'd be fine without anything...

Need to get back into single player games - at least there i have some control over the parameters of the game & the rules don't suddenly drasticly change

[ZzpxpzZ]

I feel like the OP fancies himself a power gamer but isnt.

First off, gear and builds are not rewarding the player skills, only their time and ability to read.

The majority of players, especially the less skilled ones most often use builds other people have made anyway so their own skill there is irrelevant. Gear in this game is easy enough to obtain as far as difficulty scale goes that all it requires to gear up is time - even what to wear is pretty documented online.

True player skill is much more important in this game than build or gear, I'm sure I could reliably out perform the bulk of players regardless of if im playing a character I built and geared for optimization OR gimpiness.

As far as there being diminishing returns at higher levels of gear, while this is definitely the case, it still doesn't matter as I would go for even the smallest gains despite the effort vs reward.

The changes in my opinion make a lot of more versatile builds a lot more viable, rather than the current ideal of absolutely focusing one single aspect of your character to the expense of everything else. Does it make things easier for less skilled players? Sure. But I would say if you only judge your character's strength relative to everyone else, rather than on an absolute scale then you will struggle with these changes, and that it's not a problem with the changes, but with your point of view.

Am I the target group most likely to gain from these changes? Probably not, but if I have a particular problem with the game in its current state, it is the health of the player base, so any change that will make this game easier for new people to break into is for the good for me.

[Jay203]

stop rewarding mediocrity.... agreed
but also... stop forcing min/max, hardcore style

[Forzah]

Just a different form of OCD. You just earn millions with the one and not with the other. So if its not genetics, are you telling me that anyone can be a NFL quarterback if they trained enough?

There is a large pool of people that genetically have the ability to be a quarterback. However, it's the determination and training that makes the difference. For a computer game you don't need quite the same amount of determination, and you certainly don't go through any pain (I might hope).

[nibel]

It also applies to +74 to hit mobs vs a 100 AC tank (very common in late heroic levels) debuffing said mob with 4 neg levels and "bane" spell would work out to the mob having 4% less hitchance

FYI, monsters do not round to the nearest 5%. So, changing from 65.4% to 64.9% makes a difference to monster attack rolls.

[Stillwaters]

FYI, monsters do not round to the nearest 5%. So, changing from 65.4% to 64.9% makes a difference to monster attack rolls.

o.0 are you serious?

Are you trying to tell me they are rolling a d1000 now?

Both 65.4 and 64.9 round to 65% so how does it "make a difference"

What the hell happened to the education system where we see arguments with this kind of logic.
Did they already change the schools to what i talked about in post#3 of this thread?

I can deal with language barriers.. but for the love of all holy...
MATH IS UNIVERSAL!!!!

[knockcocker]

o.0 are you serious?

Are you trying to tell me they are rolling a d1000 now?

Both 65.4 and 64.9 round to 65% so how does it "make a difference"

What the hell happened to the education system where we see arguments with this kind of logic.
Did they already change the schools to what i talked about in post#3 of this thread?

I can deal with language barriers.. but for the love of all holy...
MATH IS UNIVERSAL!!!!

We'd really need a dev to confirm this actually. I suspect most of the maths in this game uses int types
rather than floating point - it certainly seems to be this way when calculating spell damage. This means
there's no rounding in the traditional sense, there's just no floating point precision. e.g. 65.00001 -> 65.999999
would all be 65.

[SableShadow]

stop rewarding mediocrity.... agreed
but also... stop forcing min/max, hardcore style

You're going to have to pick one.

Sorry.

[Stillwaters]

We'd really need a dev to confirm this actually. I suspect most of the maths in this game uses int types
rather than floating point - it certainly seems to be this way when calculating spell damage. This means
there's no rounding in the traditional sense, there's just no floating point precision. e.g. 65.00001 -> 65.999999
would all be 65.

/sigh ok, for arguments sake alone.

If there IS your style of rounding, in the examples he set, there is an

ALMOST

IMPERCEPTIBLE

1%

CHANGE

using your (drop all .x style) rounding

I could just as easily have shown to hit numbers that fit within it.. because...
it is still ROUNDING! except instead of 0.5 > 1.49999 = 1
you have 1.0001 > 1.99999 = 1
its the same range!
and this range includes higher and higher to-hit numbers as we progress

/end argument.. math aka logic wins!

EDIT: really, really feel like unleashing a primal urge, and punching some math teachers in the head.... for not doing their job!

[knockcocker]

/sigh ok, for arguments sake alone.

If there IS your style of rounding, in the examples he set, there is an

ALMOST

IMPERCEPTIBLE

1%

CHANGE

using your (drop all .x style) rounding

I could just as easily have shown to hit numbers that fit within it
it is still ROUNDING! except instead of 0.5 > 1.49999 = 1
you have 1.0001 > 1.99999 = 1
its the same range!

I've no clue as to how the new 'to-hit' mechanics work. When I occasionally run my melee out, I press
the button and I either hit or I miss. I only worry when I see miss more often than hit

I was simply commenting on the way calculations appear to be made in this game. I have no inside
knowledge here (apart from knowing that using int types is generally easier and more efficient).

He stated:

FYI, monsters do not round to the nearest 5%. So, changing from 65.4% to 64.9% makes a difference to monster attack rolls.

If there is no floating point precision in these calcs (or the result is cast) then 65.4 and 64.9 would result
in 65 and 64 so could be different. Whether that's significant or not, I don't know. Perhaps I should look up the
new 'to-hit' mechanics...

[Stillwaters]

If there is no floating point precision in these calcs (or the result is cast) then 65.4 and 64.9 would result
in 65 and 64 so could be different. Whether that's significant or not, I don't know. Perhaps I should look up the
new 'to-hit' mechanics...

Yes it is true, but 65 > 65.999999 would be 65%
the same range
meaning I can STILL show +1 to hit does not always equal 1% change
10 to hit vs ac 60 = (20.5/120) = 17.08333 = 17%
11 to hit vs ac 60 = (21.5/120) = 17.91666 = 17%

It doesnt matter the style of the 1% round, what matters is its range!
my 7 year old understands this concept!

pretty funny considering this mediocre argument is in a thread talking about the mediocre

EDIT: Rounding for kids 7 and up

[voodoogroves]

Yes it is true, but 65 > 65.999999 would be 65%
the same range
meaning I can STILL show +1 to hit does not equal 1% change

I don't think they ever said how many decimals the monsters would be using to roll. Just:

Players will use the same formula, but will have a 25% bonus to hit if they are proficient with their weapon. Unlike monster attack rolls, player to hit rolls will be mapped to a d20 by rounding to the nearest 5% - if you hit on a 13, you’ll hit on a 13. Players will also graze opponents on a roll of 2 or higher on the d20 instead of a 10 or higher – if you character looks like it hit with your weapon, it should do some damage on anything but a roll of a 1.

pretty funny considering this mediocre argument is in a thread talking about the mediocre

True. And sad.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

UGG FFS Diminishing^

Back when Epics First come out I had a real hard time hitting Malecia with my first life monk.

But, Haste Potion, Rage Potion, GH Clicky, Action Boost and I could get an extra +8/9 which made a huge difference....

In New System that +8 is about the same as only getting a +1 to hit on live currently.

The diminishing returns is an absolute spit in the face of high level Bard Songs/Divine Buffs/Arcane Buffs which on live can add up to a pretty hefty "to hit"

But buffed to the 9s in the Update with Diminishing Returns is pretty huge LOAD OF LOLTH.

Thanks for Lolthing us...

PSA: Hire some REAL Mathematicians and Statisticians to do your future cypherin'

REALLY excited to see the New Neverwinter. Wish I hadn't dropped $200 in Jan '12 for a years VIP for my GF and me... Really wish I hadn't dropped the 80$ on the CE XPAC preorder. But, hind-sight and all....I spent the money in GOOD FAITH AND CONFIDENCE on a GAME I LOVED to play.

I still have enjoyable moments but each Update or Expansion brings more of an S Sandwich and Less of a "Wow this is AWESOME"

Can't recall the who, what, where of the quote in another post but imagine a reference to S Iced Cupcakes and you'll imagine where this is going....

[razmataz_2000]

So, heres what i don't get...

The AC/tohit system was in need of revision correct?

So instead of reducing the power creep across PC classes and NPC monsters to within an acceptable point range for no geared 8-str wizards and full raged and geared 100million str barbs.. it gets d10000'ed ?

Lets for example look...
A 20th Barb BAB from PnP Is +20/+15/+10/+5

And
A 20th Wizard BAB is +10/+5
the attack system was pretty dang simple
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + size modifier + weapon enchantment level

whats this mean? someone correct me if im wrong, its been awhile
1-20 attack roll + 20BAB + 10 (30str) + 5 (+5 dagger of stabbing) = 36-55 tohit range?
vs
1-20 attack roll + 10BAB + (-1)(8str) + 5 (+5 dagger of magic missle) = 15-34 tohit range?

Unless i missed something that would be acceptable range if Mob AC was in the 24-44 range Im not sure what kind of point im hoping to make... Maybe that in a d20 based system with bonuses and additive numbers its important to make sure that things (gear/stats/etc) dont get crazy high values or it skews the system. Into what exists now

The disparity between a full geared minmaxer vs a no geared casual can be astounding thats *I THINK* because the d20 systems AC and tohit range limitations were tossed aside... and no head given to creation of incredibly powerful loot for PCs... tossing aside +6 items as garbage thats just... wow idk

I'm no expert on class balance or balance of anykind actually it just sounds like going from a system that works when its limitations are respected to some arbitrary number system is not progressive... Take alook at other MMOs
800 STR!, 4000 ATK! 12000 AC! heck yeah! adding more zeros does not - in reality - make things a better system.

-my2cents

[knockcocker]

Yes it is true, but 65 > 65.999999 would be 65%
the same range
meaning I can STILL show +1 to hit does not always equal 1% change
10 to hit vs ac 60 = (20.5/120) = 17.08333 = 17%
11 to hit vs ac 60 = (21.5/120) = 17.91666 = 17%

It doesnt matter the style of the 1% round, what matters is its range!
my 7 year old understands this concept!

pretty funny considering this mediocre argument is in a thread talking about the mediocre

EDIT: Rounding for kids 7 and up

Umm, sorry for making you think you were in an argument. Particularly a mediocre one.

I was only pointing out that due to variable typing, usual arithmetic conversions etc. that calculations
in a computer game may not follow what you'd learn in a maths class. No more, no less. I have no comment
whatsoever (as I thought my prior comment had made clear) on the significance of any numbers generated.

[Stillwaters]

Umm, sorry for making you think you were in an argument. Particularly a mediocre one.

Apology not needed, but appreciated.

It just strikes me as unfortunate that when I point out an entire forest of errors,
people still miss it, confining their thinking as to what shapes the leaves are on the trees.

The sad truth is hidden in the title of this thread:
Unless enough people stop rewarding the mediocre service given to this combat system, nothing will improve.

Stillwaters

[DethTrip]

Why penalize intelligent, hard working, determined players? Oh I know, cause 90% of the masses are lazy and stupid so lets cater to them to make more money!! Smart, determined players work hard on their toons and figure out a strategy that works so lets nerf them so unintelligent, unskilled, lazy newbs are just as good!?!? I hope when this goes live they have rethought a lot of this because if I can't build a powerful character through hard work and using my brain, then what's the sense in playing?

/signed

[Urist]

if I can't build a powerful character through hard work and using my brain, then what's the sense in playing?

By "hard work and using my brain", do you actually mean "grinding out AC gear"? Because that's the only thing that's rewarded in the current AC situation, AFAICT.

Mediocre players will continue to be mediocre. What the New AC Experience does is prevent some mediocre players being able to disguise their mediocrity with loot.

So instead of reducing the power creep across PC classes and NPC monsters to within an acceptable point range for no geared 8-str wizards and full raged and geared 100million str barbs.. it gets d10000'ed ?

Unfortunately, yes. What alternative would be better? To nerf just about everything that makes players feel powerful (large numbers, and far larger numbers than noobs get)?
As far as forum complaints go, I do believe that Turbine have probably chosen the path of least doom.

[Stillwaters]

By "hard work and using my brain", do you actually mean "grinding out AC gear"? Because that's the only thing that's rewarded in the current AC situation, AFAICT.

What alternative would be better? To nerf just about everything that makes players feel powerful (large numbers, and far larger numbers than noobs get)?

Grinding out AC gear rewarded those that invested in it. The rewards got nerfed. As did the rewards for "to-hit" which strangely you ignore.

Those that think the new system is better have their heads firmly planted in their own...sand. They will still be hit more often than the ac grinders, yet if they now CHOOSE to invest more they will be rewarded less, and will never see the mitigation levels they covet on live.


How is this new system not also nerfing just about everything related to AC or "to-hit"?
+1 to-hit that was worth 5%, is now nerfed.
51+ ac reduces +1 to-hit to being worth less than 1% (rounding disguises this but its true)
by the time 101AC is reached +1 tohit is worth less than .5%


In endgame the steep curve requires greater steps to achieve the same thing,
meaning new items need to become much greater to even bother switching to.
The +20attack or +100AC items you see on other MMOs would be required to advance noticeably.

New system = Larger numbers between steps, far larger than the non grinders would get


ALTERNATIVES:
They could leave the new armors, PRR and Dodge systems in place,
and just NOT change the AC to to-hit relationship,
and have a system that rewards everyone based on investment.

They could install consecutive penalties on mob attack strings,
widening the range of useful ac so that those that invest a little are rewarded little,
those that invest a lot but haven't ground out the "best" gear yet would be rewarded a lot.

They could nerf the way the bonuses stack together, reduce mobs to hits to heck,
and have a system that "kicks-in" earlier. <- I would even prefer this over the proposed changes

Saying there was not any better alternatives other than nerfing everything, is an insult to your own intellect,
and to any that see through strawman hyperbole.

[nibel]

FYI, monsters do not round to the nearest 5%. So, changing from 65.4% to 64.9% makes a difference to monster attack rolls.

We'd really need a dev to confirm this actually.

They confirmed, but it was in the closed beta forums, and so, the link I have is not working anymore.

But basically, things get dow to:

Monsters: Do fancy math to get % to-hit. Use this straigth % to-hit as is.
Players: Do fancy math to get % to-hit. Round up to the nearest 5%. Add proficiency and other bonus (precision, point blank shot, etc). Convert to d20 roll.

The math is rounded for players because we all like and love to see the dice roll on screen. Since we do not see the monster's rolls, it's MUCH easier for the server to stop the fancy math before the rounding.

I have no idea what is the last significant digit (if its d1000 or d10000, or whatever), but I believe they would consider at least the first decimal number.