Stop rewarding mediocrity

[Quetzacoala]

There are vastly more casual players than there are dedicated players; therefore, from a marketing standpoint, does it not make sense to cater to the majority?

[Schnellcast]

Can we stop trying to "Improve" this game and just leave attack (to hit) and AC (armor class) the same? This isn't DnD anymore other than the races, classes, spells, monsters. The farther they stray away from the real DnD things it seems the less enjoyable it will be for others. Although I do agree the haunting effect is rather smart on Turbines end, Necro biased people are very powerful in epics with their insta-kills, and also since they have brought single targeting DOT spells. I want to play something similar to Dungeons and Dragons, that's why I started playing this game in the first place. Now it is transitioning to an idea as horrible as the people who thought to make 4.0 pen and paper

[Aesop]

I don't feel the new system is as horrifically bad as people are making it out to be. I don't feel it is perfect by a long stretch and there is some major tweaking that needs to be done.

Past Lives will need to be looked to. To Hit benefits will need to be looked at. Defensive characters have more angles to cover to get the best defense.

AC
DR
PRR
Dodge
Concealment
Incorporeal
Fortification

All of these are going to play a roll in damage mitigation. So while to hit may be marginalized vs AC these other aspects may need to have some counter mitigation.

Feats like Weapon Focus (which has always needed a boost) maybe they can have new effects added to them to help mitigate Mob Dodge or maybe Feats need to have a solid 5% improvement. Something could be done and some tweaking will need to be done.

If there is one thing I can say though... Nothing will stay the same for long.

When DDO was first brought out it was said that it would have extremely little grind... This was what made me happy as I can't stand grinding. Its been 6.5 year (Beta) since I started and things have changed and not always for the better. There will be more change also and this will be alright in the end the Devs won't leave it in this cobbled together state for too long.

Aesop

[maddmatt70]

I don't feel the new system is as horrifically bad as people are making it out to be. I don't feel it is perfect by a long stretch and there is some major tweaking that needs to be done.

Past Lives will need to be looked to.

Past lives do not need to be looked at. You could say the exact same thing about end game players who grinded a bunch of gear which is going to be soon replaced i.e. we all wasted a bunch of time doing so. Past lives is the exact same thing it is time grind which is getting a nerf. In all MMOs new time grinds are better then old time grinds that is the state of things.

[Aesop]

Past lives do not need to be looked at. You could say the exact same thing about end game players who grinded a bunch of gear which is going to be soon replaced i.e. we all wasted a bunch of time doing so. Past lives is the exact same thing it is time grind which is getting a nerf. In all MMOs new time grinds are better then old time grinds that is the state of things.

The past lives aren't getting replaced by better things though. They are staying the same yet have a lesser effect. You can't upgrade them past the point they are at.

Gear however (while still too grindy) is constantly evolving. If Fighter Past life gave +1 to hit in the old system and the new system has diminished that effect then it should be looked at to see if the reward is still reasonable. Perhaps the +1 to hit should be changed to bypass 1% of Dodge instead? Or something else that is worthwhile.

This is a whole new system really and a lot needs to be adjusted around a bit. We shouldn't be afraid of adjusting with the knowledge that somethings may get better and some may get worse during that adjustment. In the end it will hopefully balance out a bit.

We have entirely new mitigation systems to play with and we are going to want to have ways to mitigate those mitigations Or rather we can use those mitigation systems to add offensive systems and broaden the approach of both offense and defense.

Aesop

[karpedieme]

Past lives do not need to be looked at. You could say the exact same thing about end game players who grinded a bunch of gear which is going to be soon replaced i.e. we all wasted a bunch of time doing so. Past lives is the exact same thing it is time grind which is getting a nerf. In all MMOs new time grinds are better then old time grinds that is the state of things.

The tille of this thread is Stop Rewarding mediocrity. Could also be translated to "Please do not disregard time spent on builds VS the flavor build or the newcomer to DDO"

Someone who chooses to spend a lot of time on one character should not get the time invested demoted with changes. Or at least have proper scaling to reflect past values.

Example: The Fighter Past life Pre-U14 to hit +1 value is a lot of time dedicated for exactly that.

People lobbyed that the 1% to hit change does not scale apporpriately with the changes. 5% seemed right but optimistic.... 2.5% was suggested cut down the middle... What's the big deal.

There are a lot of gaps in the new calculations when specific feats do not scale up with to hit values.

Removal of BAB is in part quite related to all of this. Why would I need to have Divine Favor and Power clickies to compensate nearly full-time.

Stillwaters has some very interesting numbers on to hit values and how gaps happen when scaling in feats.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=103

From the d20 to the 100 system back down to 20 there are quite a few gaps that will impact builds.

The new combat system agreed is a generalized vision for all to enjoy the new Epics.

Fact though a lot of Pre-U14 Max to hit builds will be missing more than before while gimp 28-32 pt flavor builds will be hitting more than before.

So the new system will make newer players more adaptive to end game quickly.....

Should Past lives apply in scale to what they used to be.... Definitely.

We are looking to have some changes to hit values in patch 1 or 2..... The new system is not perfect. When the TWF changes happened err Nerf we did see in the subsequent patches a boost to dps so i remain optimistic that we will see some end-user changes.

Its still all about balance.... People who invest time and grind should be weighed in as equally as people who play casually as we are all here for fun. Frustration ensues when turbine decides to favor the new player by making it easier for him to adapt while taking away certain vital aspects of those that spent a lot of time Building a character.

Laters all and have a great day and MOTU Launch

[Aaxeyu]

2. Haunting
That extra 1 DC that you ground out completionist for is now meaningless

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377267&page=41 (scroll down to Mrwindupbird post)

It allows you to instakill 1/2 a mob more during the course of the quest. Assuming you aren't waiting after every encounter, which turbine seems to be encouraging. This doesn't push team play, it pushes waiting around for 2min every wail. The faster (better) your group is, the less that necro DC matters.

A character shouldnt be based on one spell, so this is positive.

[KillEveryone]

A character shouldnt be based on one spell, so this is positive.

You are correct, a class shouldn't be based upon one spell.

It was never based upon one spell anyway. It was based upon a school.

[noinfo]

The past lives aren't getting replaced by better things though. They are staying the same yet have a lesser effect. You can't upgrade them past the point they are at.

Aesop

Which is better than gear because you can only wear one set at a time. And your abilities are being upgraded: ED.

Mats point stands, gear grind all over again, ED grind. The difference is though marginalised your past lives can still be used to compliment stuff, unlike limited gear slots.

[Dandonk]

There are 20 heroic levels before EDs come into play. Why should those be nerfed?

Are we going to grind EDs just to get back at where we were? Yay?

[Gremmlynn]

The more I think about it, the better the pnp version looks....+25/+20/+15/+10 attacks, etc....instead of +25/+25/+30/+35 or only +25.

That way to-hit still matters. AC is viable more often. It still uses d20. It rewards those with high AC/to-hit without making it necessary to get within the very small window that can be d20 at endgame.

It's perfect, and I really wonder why it was never implemented in the first place.

Certainly far better than this d100 abomination that is being planned.

It was abandoned because in reality that +25/+20/+15/+10 system was a +25/twitch/+25/twitch/+25... system without a DM to decide what constitutes a new attack sequence.

[noinfo]

It was abandoned because in reality that +25/+20/+15/+10 system was a +25/twitch/+25/twitch/+25... system without a DM to decide what constitutes a new attack sequence.

Which can easily be avoided now by remembering the chain position for several seconds after the attack stops.

[thakorian]

A character shouldnt be based on one spell, so this is positive.

Palemasters shouldn't be based on necromancy? How about you make a barbarian that doesn't focus on wielding a weapon, huh?

[DrakHar]

People by and large hate the to hit changes moreso than the AC changes.

As it stands, the to hit changes didnt hit lammania. If they don't hit live, then a lot of this whining was either wasted as it wasn't happening, or effective as they saw the point that player to hit isn't broken, while AC is.

[karpedieme]

People by and large hate the to hit changes moreso than the AC changes.

As it stands, the to hit changes didnt hit lammania. If they don't hit live, then a lot of this whining was either wasted as it wasn't happening, or effective as they saw the point that player to hit isn't broken, while AC is.

Don't see where you coming from with the TO-HIT changes never being applied on lammania.

Removal of the Original BAB went forward thus completely changing the mechanics and this new formulation of to hit relative to Target Armor Class.

Changes to hit and armor class went hand in hand. They could not change AC only wihtout rehauling the To-Hit system.

From release notes.

"To Hit" Mechanics

Players and monsters now calculate how they hit differently:
Monsters hitting players:
• (Monster To Hit Bonus +10.5 / Player Target’s AC) /2 = X% chance of attack success, when then roll against that number.
• Auto hits on 20s and auto misses on 1s still apply.
• Players will now see an “average” defense chance from a level appropriate monster on normal now displayed on their character sheet under the AC tool tip.
Players hitting Monsters:
• A character's roll is the same as a Monster to-hit with two exceptions: an added "proficiency bonus”, and the attack is rounted to the d20:
o (Player To Hit Bonus +10.5 / Monster Target’s AC) /2 = X% +25% If using a proficient weapon. The attack is then rounded to the nearest 5% in order to simulate the d20 roll seen in the UI.
• +5/+10 Base Attack Bonus from BAB rotation still apply.
• Players now perform a "Grazing Hit" on any roll but a 2.


As you say it the majority of whinnng against the to-hit changes is that in large part there are gaps in the numbers that initially were disclosed as making things better.

I wont doom the new system, I agree things had to change. There is room for improvement but the fact is there is absolutely ZERO reckognintion of time spent on a build by demoting the values of acquired past lives Such as Fighter +1 to hit scaling poorly and insignificantly.

The new system issues happen also as feat stack on each other and the to-hit values do not scale accordingly with the relative to hit values.

Simply put a dismal melee flavor build that struggled in past epics will now have significantly better chanced to hit where Max to hit builds and certain classes like arty stacking feats will have very significant drops.

New players can come to new epics a lot easier than before.... Where Max built toons will see registered misses more often sadly enough.

Changes were needed but more so they need to be done in proper balance to reward all players not just favor a new influx of people joining DDO.

So yes to hits have changed.... TR and go to the harbor elites on a BB streak as reported and see how the changes affect players now.

Balance will be achieved but in the meantime a lot of supposed "Hate" got put vs the changes because the d20 translated poorly to 100%. Then it gets minimized rounded to the nearest 5% and left a lot of gaps that initially were said to not exist.

[DrakHar]

Don't see where you coming from with the TO-HIT changes never being applied on lammania.

Removal of the Original BAB went forward thus completely changing the mechanics and this new formulation of to hit relative to Target Armor Class.

Changes to hit and armor class went hand in hand. They could not change AC only wihtout rehauling the To-Hit system.

From release notes.

"To Hit" Mechanics

Players and monsters now calculate how they hit differently:
Monsters hitting players:
• (Monster To Hit Bonus +10.5 / Player Target’s AC) /2 = X% chance of attack success, when then roll against that number.
• Auto hits on 20s and auto misses on 1s still apply.
• Players will now see an “average” defense chance from a level appropriate monster on normal now displayed on their character sheet under the AC tool tip.
Players hitting Monsters:
• A character's roll is the same as a Monster to-hit with two exceptions: an added "proficiency bonus”, and the attack is rounted to the d20:
o (Player To Hit Bonus +10.5 / Monster Target’s AC) /2 = X% +25% If using a proficient weapon. The attack is then rounded to the nearest 5% in order to simulate the d20 roll seen in the UI.
• +5/+10 Base Attack Bonus from BAB rotation still apply.
• Players now perform a "Grazing Hit" on any roll but a 2.


As you say it the majority of whinnng against the to-hit changes is that in large part there are gaps in the numbers that initially were disclosed as making things better.

I wont doom the new system, I agree things had to change. There is room for improvement but the fact is there is absolutely ZERO reckognintion of time spent on a build by demoting the values of acquired past lives Such as Fighter +1 to hit scaling poorly and insignificantly.

The new system issues happen also as feat stack on each other and the to-hit values do not scale accordingly with the relative to hit values.

Simply put a dismal melee flavor build that struggled in past epics will now have significantly better chanced to hit where Max to hit builds and certain classes like arty stacking feats will have very significant drops.

New players can come to new epics a lot easier than before.... Where Max built toons will see registered misses more often sadly enough.

Changes were needed but more so they need to be done in proper balance to reward all players not just favor a new influx of people joining DDO.

So yes to hits have changed.... TR and go to the harbor elites on a BB streak as reported and see how the changes affect players now.

Balance will be achieved but in the meantime a lot of supposed "Hate" got put vs the changes because the d20 translated poorly to 100%. Then it gets minimized rounded to the nearest 5% and left a lot of gaps that initially were said to not exist.

Ah, so they did change the to hit as well. The reason I posted what i did is there were several posters posting that the changes to hit DID NOT ACTUALLY occur, Shade being one of them. I'm downloading the game updates now, so If they actually did change the to hit of players as well, yes, this is a bad update. The error in their logic is that monsters and players need to use the same system. They do not. And as soon as they can realize this, we can have reasonable ACs and the melee's can get back to hitting things.

[Aesop]

Which is better than gear because you can only wear one set at a time. And your abilities are being upgraded: ED.

Mats point stands, gear grind all over again, ED grind. The difference is though marginalised your past lives can still be used to compliment stuff, unlike limited gear slots.

You are sidestepping the point. Yes gear are limited slots but many are getting upgraded to match the new system. PL are not and as such will be worse than they were previous to the update. (at least in some cases)

Turbine could fix this issue by updating the PLs to reflect the changes in the system

Aesop

[Stillwaters]

You are sidestepping the point. Yes gear are limited slots but many are getting upgraded to match the new system. PL are not and as such will be worse than they were previous to the update. (at least in some cases)

Turbine could fix this issue by updating the PLs to reflect the changes in the system

Aesop

And your suggestion to this fix is?
Remember the PL feat stacks 3 times,

The problem with the +% system is it sidesteps the actual need for to-hit training on your build, 25% proficiency +5% pointblank + 5% precision +3(x%) ftr PLs and a negative 9000 to hit score and you still hit any ac in the game a good deal of the time.

The problem with the +to-hit system is against tiny AC mobs +1 is pretty good, but around ac 50.. well im pretty sure ppl see the gaps now without the math.

This doesn't just go for fighter PL feats, a kensai with 3 feats devoted to just +3 to hit (the 3 weapon focus feats)
Finesse builds (unless fixed via pre/enhancement system) are nerfed (even more) as STAT bonuses to-hit are not worth what they used to be.



Neither % system or +To-Hit system scale with the quest difficulty/character levels % never scales with character's melee training (wizards get as much benefit as fighters) and one hits a series of gaps where +1 becomes worth less and less, (a lot of time meaning no change due to "rounding")

The whole design of this combat system is flawed and needs to be scrapped and reworked from ground up. The more i see and play thru the breaks in the combat system the more i loved the elegant design Gary Gygax came up with.

[Aesop]

And your suggestion to this fix is?
Remember the PL feat stacks 3 times,

The problem with the +% system is it sidesteps the actual need for to-hit training on your build, 25% proficiency +5% pointblank + 5% precision +3(x%) ftr PLs and a negative 9000 to hit score and you still hit any ac in the game a good deal of the time.

The problem with the +to-hit system is against tiny AC mobs +1 is pretty good, but around ac 50.. well im pretty sure ppl see the gaps now without the math.

This doesn't just go for fighter PL feats, a kensai with 3 feats devoted to just +3 to hit (the 3 weapon focus feats)
Finesse builds (unless fixed via pre/enhancement system) are nerfed (even more) as STAT bonuses to-hit are not worth what they used to be.



Neither % system or +To-Hit system scale with the quest difficulty/character levels % never scales with character's melee training (wizards get as much benefit as fighters) and one hits a series of gaps where +1 becomes worth less and less, (a lot of time meaning no change due to "rounding")

The whole design of this combat system is flawed and needs to be scrapped and reworked from ground up. The more i see and play thru the breaks in the combat system the more i loved the elegant design Gary Gygax came up with.

It doesn't have to be a to hit bonus. It could be a combat DC bonus, or something else that I'm too tired to come up with right now. Bad sleep last night.

My statement was (unless I'm forgetting which is possible) that the PLs should be looked at to bring them back to a reasonable level. Some may stay the same but some should definitely be changed. Maybe fighters would get a melee damage boost and Monks would get a Dodge bonus. OR maybe fighters would get a PRR bonus...

Aesop

[riexau]

There's actually a real easy solution to this. Instead of 'tweaking' existing past life stuff, which is still solid from 1-20, add a new tier of 'epic active past life feats'. Make them so good that it's no longer "I'm a melee, so epic toughness and overwhelming critical".