Stop rewarding mediocrity

[knockcocker]

Show me please, last I checked due to metas getting a 50% bump the spell damage/heal were almost unchanged, holding an item after clickies etc...

A well geared L20 Sorc using the Eardweller on live has an equivalent spellpower of 675 - regardless of what they are
holding/wearing.

The identically geared Sorc on Lammania, using all clickies (ED + Sup ? VIII), has a spellpower of 598. Far more
equipment restrictions and two clicky activations (6s cooldown). So, no, it's not unchanged.

You also need to be aware that most direct damage spells have hard die caps. This means that damage scaling
L21 - L25 is far less for casters than L1 - L20.

With better epic equipment and benefits from ED abilities, casters should be able to match the spellpower they
currently have now on live.

[Lormyr]

For not powergamers there is casual normal or even hard difficult, where the threat is little.

I play tennis once a week, i don't pretend to be invited to Roland Garros

Well said.

I can understand wanting to make the game slightly more new player friendly, as well as addressing the steep AC curve. These are fine aspirations, but these changes are not the best way, or even a good way, to go about any of these things (same goes for the death spells issue).

If you wish to elevate the bottom line to make new players slightly more effective and to need slightly less knowledge of the way the game is played in order to be effective, that is acceptable to most people. No one is against this.

What we are against is the characters we've spent years TR'ing, gearing, and building being reduced in efficiency simply to line us up in a more common denominator with players who have not done these things, and/or have not done them nearly so much.

Everyone should be able to play the game in the way they want too, and without harming anyone else's fun. If the extreme power gamers want to build, TR, and grind gear for exceptionally powerful characters, they should be able to do so. If soloists want to dive into the most self-sustaining and capable classes in order to challenge themselves in single player content, they should be able to do so. If team players want to run competent but more "old faithful" sort of builds, strategize with their partymembers, and then execute a well layed team plan for victory, they should be able to do so.

Not one of those types of players impacts the other players fun at all. Your fun in this game is controlled entirely by you, as well it should be.

[morticianjohn]

/signed on the OP. I do agree that these changes lean towards mediocrity and that direction is generally a bad one.

However, if you read the AC thread (can't remember if it was a let's talk thread or not) the overwhelming majority of you voted to have AC play a bigger role in the game. These changes fit the bill for everything you were asking for. I find it strange that so many people pleaded for this change and now you want to change it back even though we haven't even gone through a single update with the changes installed. Even I (who suggested in the AC thread that nothing needed changed) am willing to give this a few months on live before I'm going to make a judgement on how well the changes are working out.

[Stillwaters]

A well geared L20 Sorc using the Eardweller on live has an equivalent spellpower of 675 - regardless of what they are
holding/wearing.

The identically geared Sorc on Lammania, using all clickies (ED + Sup ? VIII), has a spellpower of 598. Far more
equipment restrictions and two clicky activations (6s cooldown). So, no, it's not unchanged.

You also need to be aware that most direct damage spells have hard die caps. This means that damage scaling
L21 - L25 is far less for casters than L1 - L20.

With better epic equipment and benefits from ED abilities, casters should be able to match the spellpower they
currently have now on live.

So a 11.5% reduction OUCH!!!
Is this only sorcs or all casters?
Is this using the new implements and <insert energy type here> booster/??
Or just the clickies and universal potency items (which are still worse IMO)??

Can you point me to a caster thread discussing this? PM me

[sweez]

This is similar to a problem that's been plaguing the music industry for quite a while now, called 'dynamic range compression'.

To quote a definition from Wikipedia,

Dynamic range compression, also called DRC (often seen in DVD and car CD player settings) or simply compression reduces the volume of loud sounds or amplifies quiet sounds by narrowing or "compressing" an audio signal's dynamic range.

In an effort to make their music louder and more 'punchy', music companies have created a landscape in which bland loud music with barely any dynamic ranges rules. It's sad to see something similar happen in MMOs (in an effort to make everyone 'viable', game designers at Turbine for example are reducing the 'dynamic range' of player choices, making mistakes/lack of optimization less costly, but also making investments like heavy TRing, character optimization, gear grinding less rewarding), but I guess it's the way of the future (mediocre people's money is as good as anyone else's, and I guess they don't like feeling any less special than people who play more/more efficiently than them).

A few articles on DRC here and here for further reading if anyone is interested.

[v.p.]

Show me please, last I checked due to metas getting a 50% bump the spell damage/heal were almost unchanged, holding an item after clickies etc...

spell_damage_new = base_damage * (1+1(maxi)+0.5(emp)+0.1(cap)+(72(item)+100(enh)+15 (imp)+90(alchem)+25(psi))/100) = base_damage * 5,62

spell_damage_old = base_damage * (1+0.5(enh)+1(eardweller_now))*(1+1(maxi)+0.5(emp) +0.1(cap)) = base_damage * 6.5

sustained damage. consider crits based on base damage and amplification and here u go.

[knockcocker]

So a 11.5% reduction OUCH!!!
Is this only sorcs or all casters?

This was for Sorcs - it's worse for Sorcs as the capstone currently stacks multiplicatively. For non-Sorcs, we
can compare:

Live:
BASE * (1 + 0.5 enhancements + 1 eardweller) * (1 + 1 maximise + 0.5 empower) = 6.25 multiplier

BETA:
BASE * ((100 + 100 enhancements + 150 maximise + 75 empower + 90 equipment + 18 implement + 20 alchemical
+ 25 psionic)/100) = 5.78 multiplier

This is with the best gear available on Live. However, it's not the full story. If we compare Superior Potency VI
(very common on live) and no other boosts:

Live:
BASE * (1 + 0.5 enhancements + 0.5 sup. pot. vi) * (1 + 1 maximise + 0.5 empower) = 5 multiplier

BETA:
BASE * ((100 + 100 enhancements + 150 maximise + 75 empower + 48 equipment + 15 implement) = 4.88 multiplier

Now, stick in an equipment boost rather than generic potency and you'll be doing more damage than on live. Like
a lot of the mechanics changes, it's ameliorating the benefits from having the best gear. As everything stacks,
they tried to make the alchemical and psionic bonuses equivalent to what they are on live - however, as nothing
stacks with feats multiplicatively any more, this is of much less benefit.

Is this using the new implements and <insert energy type here> booster/??

Yes

Or just the clickies and universal potency items (which are still worse IMO)??

Clickies and elemental specifics. Superior Potency VII converts to 52 spellpower. Casters now have to make
more choices of gearing. Clickies are relegated to non-essential. I haven't used clickies on beta for a while
now.

Can you point me to a caster thread discussing this? PM me

There's a few. This was discussed a lot in closed beta. Overall maximise and empower are what
is affected. Damage output without these is substantially higher than it is on live. Whether that
suits your playstyle is a different matter. I don't really mind these changes per se, I mind that the
eardweller is nerfed to oblivion.

[voodoogroves]

Maybe it's a gift horse, since now an 18/2 sorc split isn't losing so much. I mean, who needs Wail and the capstone?

[KillEveryone]

I've been working on my bard. Plan is 18 bard/2 rogue, warchanter.

I have to take power attack to qualify for warchanter and I don't like the thought of never turning it on because it has caused me difficulty to hit in the past. I'm also TWF.

I've ground out 2 fighter past lives...planned on 3...so that I can hit on a 2 with PA on(I have to have the feat so I'd like some use out of it.)

With a 40 STR(self buffed/gear, don't count ship buffs because I can't self buff them if I die,) 2 fighter past lives, songs maxed warchanter with the class split, destruction on my DT armor, how well am I actually going to hit?

Did I actually waste my time with those fighter lives? If you are going to answer, I'd like to see numbers.

I had planned on 3 fighter past lives but I wonder if it is actually going to be worth my time.

[knockcocker]

This is similar to a problem that's been plaguing the music industry for quite a while now, called 'dynamic range compression'.

To quote a definition from Wikipedia,



In an effort to make their music louder and more 'punchy', music companies have created a landscape in which bland loud music with barely any dynamic ranges rules. It's sad to see something similar happen in MMOs (in an effort to make everyone 'viable', game designers at Turbine for example are reducing the 'dynamic range' of player choices, making mistakes/lack of optimization less costly, but also making investments like heavy TRing, character optimization, gear grinding less rewarding), but I guess it's the way of the future (mediocre people's money is as good as anyone else's, and I guess they don't like feeling any less special than people who play more/more efficiently than them).

A few articles on DRC here and here for further reading if anyone is interested.

This is an excellent analogy - thanks for posting.

[knockcocker]

Maybe it's a gift horse, since now an 18/2 sorc split isn't losing so much. I mean, who needs Wail and the capstone?

Something has to be wrong when I think those 2 AP are more useful to me than the 20 spellpower...

[trog_star]

This is similar to a problem that's been plaguing the music industry for quite a while now, called 'dynamic range compression'.

beautiful analogy, i could not agree more.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...9&postcount=33

[MRMechMan]

I've been working on my bard. Plan is 18 bard/2 rogue, warchanter.

I have to take power attack to qualify for warchanter and I don't like the thought of never turning it on because it has caused me difficulty to hit in the past. I'm also TWF.

I've ground out 2 fighter past lives...planned on 3...so that I can hit on a 2 with PA on(I have to have the feat so I'd like some use out of it.)

With a 40 STR(self buffed/gear, don't count ship buffs because I can't self buff them if I die,) 2 fighter past lives, songs maxed warchanter with the class split, destruction on my DT armor, how well am I actually going to hit?

Did I actually waste my time with those fighter lives? If you are going to answer, I'd like to see numbers.

I had planned on 3 fighter past lives but I wonder if it is actually going to be worth my time.

Well

(Player’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) + 25%, rounded to nearest 5%

Say, +65 to-hit and 65 AC=83% (rounds to..85%)
+68 to-hit from 3 fighter PLs and 65 AC=85% (rounds to...ugh)

At the moment, 1 fighter PL= ~.5-1% more to-hit.
Destruction fully landed=3%ish more to-hit

If you feel 4.3million XP is worth that extra .5-1% to-hit (ODDS ARE IT WON'T ROUND YOU UP AND ACTUALLY DOES NOTHING), then go for it. This new system means grinding for top gear to get better to-hit is meaningless. Fighter PL=probably meaningless (but maybe 5% extra to-hit, if you get lucky with rounding! /slitwrist)

So yea, turbine slaps the ball over to your side of the court. Happy grinding.

OH btw a major part of the reason bards were a huge DPS boost in some quests/groups was a massive to-hit bonus that they gave. People (gimpzors) that hit on a 14+ would often hit 2x as much with a bard, making them great in undergeared groups. Even in well geared groups making everyone hit on 3-4 more dice rolls vs some enemies is a very big DPS boost. Turbine is singing the music now. To-hit is useless. Better hope ya bring more to the table.

Go TR, can't even pass displacement, lazy bard

[voodoogroves]

It's the diminishing returns system that's the real problem.

Additions to one step are lackluster. Additions to the second are "better".

... stupid non-linear new system on top of a base environment where everything is pretty well linear ...

[eris2323]

I don't really mind these changes per se, I mind that the
eardweller is nerfed to oblivion.

Yeah. 18 runs for that, and I considered myself lucky.

Now regulated to the bank, pretty much... kinda useless.

[knockcocker]

yeah. 18 runs for that, and i considered myself lucky.

38

[phalaeo]

I've been working on my bard. Plan is 18 bard/2 rogue, warchanter.

I have to take power attack to qualify for warchanter and I don't like the thought of never turning it on because it has caused me difficulty to hit in the past. I'm also TWF.

I've ground out 2 fighter past lives...planned on 3...so that I can hit on a 2 with PA on(I have to have the feat so I'd like some use out of it.)

With a 40 STR(self buffed/gear, don't count ship buffs because I can't self buff them if I die,) 2 fighter past lives, songs maxed warchanter with the class split, destruction on my DT armor, how well am I actually going to hit?

Did I actually waste my time with those fighter lives? If you are going to answer, I'd like to see numbers.

I had planned on 3 fighter past lives but I wonder if it is actually going to be worth my time.

I have a first life 16Bard/2Rog/2Fgt, Halfling Warchanter, TWF Khopesh. Honestly, I have not noticed anything different in how well she can hit. We duo'ed Epic Normal for pretty much every quest in the Xpack so far, and I'm hitting as well as before. (We being myself and an 18/2 Wiz/Rogue). Character has 36 STR with Rage spell, no ship buffs. I'll have to look up her self-buffed to-hit for you.... it was showing buggy the other day.

I might find things to be different in other group compilations- the Wiz is an aggro piggy, so I got lots of SA. I also have all of the Halfling Cunning/Guile enhancements, FWIW.

EDIT: I also never turned PA off, and I'm at about 35 hours worth of testing on Lama. Well, I forgot to turn it on one quest, but noticed about three mobs in (if you want to be technical). So... it was on 99%, lol.

[pHo3nix]

Well

(Player’s Attack Bonus + 10.5) / (Target’s Armor Class * 2) + 25%, rounded to nearest 5%

Say, +65 to-hit and 65 AC=83% (rounds to..85%)
+68 to-hit from 3 fighter PLs and 65 AC=85% (rounds to...ugh)

At the moment, 1 fighter PL= ~.5-1% more to-hit.
Destruction fully landed=3%ish more to-hit

If you feel 4.3million XP is worth that extra .5-1% to-hit (ODDS ARE IT WON'T ROUND YOU UP AND ACTUALLY DOES NOTHING), then go for it. This new system means grinding for top gear to get better to-hit is meaningless. Fighter PL=probably meaningless (but maybe 5% extra to-hit, if you get lucky with rounding! /slitwrist)

That's why they should change fighter PL to give 5% to hit, so it will basically work the same way as on live.

Anyway we can still grind more than 30million Xp for 3 PL wizards, 3 PL sorc and 3 PL fvs for an uber implosion DC and an uber spell penetration to use every 2-3 min while questing: there are so many things one can do while afk to wait for the debuff to run out

[Aalric]

It just amazes me how Turbine has managed to generate so much negative feeling for this update/expansion.

Expansions should help lift a game - instead, a lot of people are dreading it. Even if you want to say the forumites are a tiny minority. they are vocal and help give a buzz about the game. To manage to make most of that buzz negative is..... well ..... it's quite an accomplishment

[gaffneyks]

For not powergamers there is casual normal or even hard difficult, where the threat is little.

I play tennis once a week, i don't pretend to be invited to Roland Garros

Tennis is a sport, DDO is not.

If they could have an open DDO event of all the best power games and people would pay to watch, they would do it, cause they would make $$$$.

They will do whatever benefits the bottom line. That is just a fact.

If there are more casual gamers than power gamers, they will cater to them, & quite frankly I can't blame them as they are in business to make money.

Get used to it. It is a fact of life.