Suggestion: Monk Stance changes to prevent "glass cannon syndrome"

[wax_on_wax_off]

I was thinking about this and it seems a valid concern that monks are going to become glass cannons. As a remedy, why not adjust the stances to compensate?

General theme:
Earth stance should give good PRR and good AC (which it already does in theory)
Air stance should give good dodge (but nothing else)
Fire stance should give moderate PRR (combined with jidz should be decent)
Water stance should give good AC and good dodge

Specific implementation:
Earth stance does grant 0/6/12/20 Physical Resistance and 5%/10%/15%/20% AC.
Air stance could grant 3/5/7/10% dodge
Fire stance could give 0/3/6/10 PRR
Water stance could grant 5%/10%/15%/20% AC, 3/5/7/10% dodge

This keeps the stances in theme but gives some needed survivability. Honestly I don't understand the overhauls or the impact that some of the specific suggestions would have so if anyone wants to crunch some maths on what would be appropriate for each stance then be my guest

[destiny4405]

well, the stances got changed, but it's still kinda of a problem, cause it's prolly not good enough and doesn't help splashes at all.

it was suggested by me and others that monks should get dodge % percentage based on their wisdom. it wouldn't only help pure ones but splashes also, which are in much worse shape. devs told us that they'll be watching us

[Aalric]

is it enough? - I honestly don't know. But at this point, ANYTHING is better then the situation as it is now.

Thank you,

[Sarnind]

glass cannon? monk in the next update is only glass XD

[redspecter23]

well, the stances got changed, but it's still kinda of a problem, cause it's prolly not good enough and doesn't help splashes at all.

it was suggested by me and others that monks should get dodge % percentage based on their wisdom. it wouldn't only help pure ones but splashes also, which are in much worse shape. devs told us that they'll be watching us

This is my thought as well. Monk splashes currently are going to be hit hard in the AC department, but if a wisdom modifier to dodge was added, that would balance out the AC hit to monk splashes while allowing full monks to reach the dodge numbers that a properly outfitted cloth wearing melee should be able to reach.

So instead of players splashing monk for AC on live right now, the same builds would instead still get the wisdom bonus to AC (but not the scaling bonus based on monk level) and also a dodge bonus based on wisdom score. This brings splashes back as a reasonable form of damage mitigation and gives full monks the defensive buff they need to be competitive.

I'd even possibly go so far as to apply a dodge penalty to earth stance while upping the DR slightly. Possibly tie it into an optional enhancement so the stance itself doesn't feel nerfed. This would allow for tank style building, but at the cost of dodge. Those in air or water stance would have practically no DR to speak of, but, in theory, the dodge bonuses from those stances should balance it out.

[Aesop]

Monks definitely need to be looked at.


I like the way you are thinking but I wouldn't mind a little more front loading on them to allow MCs to actually function.


Earth: PRR +5/10/15/20, AC +5/10/15/20%, Ki when Struck +1/2/3/4, Crit Mult +0/0/1/1

Air: Dodge +2/5/9/14%, Enhancement to RoA +2.5/5/7.5/10%, Double Strike +2.5/5/7.5/10%

Water: Dodge +2/5/9/14%, AC +5/10/15/20%, Saves +2/3/4/5, Tactic DCs +1/2/3/4

Fire: PRR +0/5/5/10, Ki on Hit +1/1/1/1, Ki on Crit +0/1/2/3, Damage +.5/1/2/4[W]


In addition I think they should reconsider other things as well.

(though maybe some of these have already changed as I haven't checked in a few days)

Centered bonus for Monks was changed to +3AC at 2/5/10/15/20 total AC bump of 15 gives Splashes a total bump of 3AC or a 6/x 6AC. The problem with this is that it precludes a lot of builds from the benefits of the new armors with no recourse and a large variance to overcome. Right now I don't have a good idea about how to balance that, but for the overall protection of the Monk I think the Centered Bonus should at least Also apply to PRR.

Also to that end the Improved Martial Arts feat should increase the Centered Bonus by 1 tier as well instead of just applying to the Damage dice of Unarmed and Ki Weapons. Without that the Feat is not nearly as potent as it should be.

Wisdom Bonus becomes less valuable as it stands so instead of just adding to AC it should also apply to Dodge as a straight percentage.

Evasion and Improved Evasion could also apply an additional Dodge Bonus of say 3-5% each. This would also benefit Rogues and to a lesser extent Rangers which have been shafted with a barbed arrow. As an aside I think Favored Enemy Bonuses should apply to Dodge as well and Barbarian DR should apply a bonus to PRR on a 3PRR to 1 DR basis.

I'm a little hesitant about applying Dexterity to Dodge bonuses as that has far greater implications than Wisdom to Dodge does. I do feel Dexterity has been minimized by this system but, there needs to be a different approach to remedying that than as a flat bonus to Dodge.



Aesop

[Stillwaters]

Wisdom Bonus becomes less valuable as it stands so instead of just adding to AC it should also apply to Dodge as a straight percentage.


Aesop

Love most of your suggestions except this one. it need to be tiered with a CAP!
On another thread (monk glass cannon?) we figured the new MAX WISDOM on a pure monk WIS based build.

61(+25) sustained 75(+32) with Temporary boosts(most viable for over 5 mins).

[Aesop]

Love most of your suggestions except this one. it need to be tiered with a CAP!
On another thread (monk glass cannon?) we figured the new MAX WISDOM on a pure monk WIS based build.

61(+25) sustained 75(+32) with Temporary boosts(most viable for over 5 mins).

How do they do with Damage?

Even with a 32% dodge and all the Feats and other items what would be the possible total?

Does it break 75%?

If so then perhaps not a Cap but a formula that applies diminishing returns. If that was applied then perhaps Dexterity and Wisdom could have the same formula. perhaps a Formula similar to the PRR formula could be used or some other formula to grant a Bonus based on Wisdom (for Monk and Splashes) and Dexterity (also perhaps if Canny Defense ever makes its way to us it can also apply Intelligence).

1- (.99^x)*.65 where x equals Wisdom Bonus or Relevant Combined Stat Bonuses

So in the first place Wisdom of 20 would yield about a 3% Dodge
A Wisdom of 75 would yield about 18%

If we went with the combined theory of Statistics a 75 Dex and Wisdom would yield about 31%

If it became remotely possible and Canny Defense was added in a 75 in all three stats would yield about 40% and you would **** well deserve it at that point.


Its not a Hard Cap but it is a Soft one that is regulated... well actually it is a hard cap of 65% but getting there would require some heavy lifting like a 490 combined bonus or so

Aesop

[Stillwaters]

How do they do with Damage?

Even with a 32% dodge and all the Feats and other items what would be the possible total?

Does it break 75%?

If so then perhaps not a Cap but a formula that applies diminishing returns. If that was applied then perhaps Dexterity and Wisdom could have the same formula. perhaps a Formula similar to the PRR formula could be used or some other formula to grant a Bonus based on Wisdom (for Monk and Splashes) and Dexterity (also perhaps if Canny Defense ever makes its way to us it can also apply Intelligence).

1- (.99^x)*.65 where x equals Wisdom Bonus or Relevant Combined Stat Bonuses

So in the first place Wisdom of 20 would yield about a 3% Dodge
A Wisdom of 75 would yield about 18%

If we went with the combined theory of Statistics a 75 Dex and Wisdom would yield about 31%

If it became remotely possible and Canny Defense was added in a 75 in all three stats would yield about 40% and you would **** well deserve it at that point.


Its not a Hard Cap but it is a Soft one that is regulated... well actually it is a hard cap of 65% but getting there would require some heavy lifting like a 490 combined bonus or so

Aesop

I like the way you think but cant add rep (stupid 24 hour cooldown)
that would solve the issue fairly well for splash and pure alike without front loading it all.
I calculated around 15-20 more dodge to break even with the armors. That should do it on a fairly pure WIS build or a high wis/dex if they go that way.

EDIT: Dark lotus rogues would have a field day though i think leloric posted a 40ish passive dodge build for rogue, and who cares about the Str drop when ya got bluff and sneak attack.

[redspecter23]

I don't like the idea of diminishing returns on dodge as it's hard enough to justify slotting a few % points here and there. I can't imagine slotting partial % points. I think a hard cap at 75% is perfectly reasonable. Nobody should ever be able to reach 100% dodge for balance purposes, but if the devs go the route of adding wisdom bonus to dodge, then you start getting high enough bonuses that you stifle any chance of meaningful bonuses in the future as it creeps min/max builds up to 100%.

Hard cap it at 75%. Give wisdom bonus as a straight up % bonus and apply a fix to the stances similar to what is posted above and I think it's a good start to test for balance when MotD goes live.

[Aalric]

i actually wouldn't mind a hard cap on ac, prr & dodge. If we had that, we wouldn't have to have such inflated to hit for critters & we might be able to keep something similar to the d20 system....

[MrWindupBird]

I posted some thoughts in the other thread too.

Just a few points here: I like both defensive ability being tied to stance or being tied to levels via dodge. I am not not sure about what the actual numbers should be, but I like the idea of buffing the stances. It always kind of bugged me that monk stances aren't actually all that strong, other than earth stance 4 as a tank, which was very powerful. The DPS stance, Air, has a sole benefit of 10% doublestrike for 10AP at tier 4, which is nice enough, but just seems a bit underwhelming (I dont count the enhancement bonus, I have a metric truckload of clickies, and +4dex for -2Con is neutral at best). The fighter capstone, which has never been called overpowered, gives 10% doublestrike for 2ap. Granted it's a capstone vs 18lvl ability, but stances really are a signature monk ability. I'd like to see them improved a bit.

Either way, splashes will not receive the defensive benefit they did prior, but I really think that's alright. 2 monk remains a very strong splash even with minimal additional dodginess, which people seem to forget. +3 saves, ability to situationally use tier 1 stances, evasion, 2 feats, and a small amount of AC is not a bad tradeoff. I don't really think that needs to be buffed. For 18/2 tank splashes interested in AC, I think they'll actually end up in light armor, and be just fine. They wont have quite as much AC/PRR as a heavy-armor tank, but that's alright: fighter versions at least should end up with decent dodge via feats and useful evasion: that's the tradeoff for a bit less AC and PRR. Tradeoffs are good!

Another point about having monks defenses be focused on dodge: dodge is different from AC in one important way. The value of a certain level of AC depends on the attack bonus of the enemy in question, while dodge functions at the same effectiveness vs ALL enemies. Making it more like PRR really, but with the additional spikiness discussed earlier (this is important! go read it if you didnt), so not quite as good. I don't forsee a real problem with that, but it's something to be aware of. A dodge-based toon will be comparatively stronger vs a super-high-attack-bonus enemy, and weaker vs a lower-attack-bonus enemy, as compared an equivalent AC-based toon. The differences will likely be pretty marginal, and the AC-based toon will have far greater PRR in all likelihood, so I still think that monks will be phased out as tanks for mostly-physical-damage bosses.

On a slightly different note, a more systemic observation. Monks differ from other classes which can obtain high AC in that much of their AC comes from innate class-granted abilities, whereas for other classes it comes from enhancements and equipment (monks benefit from equipment too, but not to quite the same extent that say a fighter does. Compare the new redscale Heavy armor vs robe to see what I mean). This is where much of the balancing difficulty stems from, and I think it's going to be even trickier with the upcoming enhancement overhaul. Which really truly should not have been separate from the ED system- it is going to be a gigantic headache this way, but c'est la vie. Tying some of monks defensive abilities to enhancements may be a good idea in this light; it makes the system more consistent.

[Ape_Man]

Leave the stances alone.

Add additional dodge based on the stats. Helps monks regardless of level and doesn't leave splashed nerfed to oblivion.

[Synthetic]

Leave the stances alone.

Add additional dodge based on the stats. Helps monks regardless of level and doesn't leave splashed nerfed to oblivion.

Splashes can wear armor, and should be getting defensive bonuses from their main class. Rangers will be getting PRR from TWF and FE bonuses for example. So adding in further monk defense could easily cause the splash builds to be over powered or leave their main class hampered by not getting enough defensive bonuses.

I like the dex to dodge idea with sliding scale and the bonuses to stances idea. I think for monks you could add wisdom rather then dex to dodge as an optional enhancement or if higher perhaps, but not overly enthusiastic about dex and wisdom to dodge as it would seem to force you to be a monk if you wanted to be dodgy.

[Snarglefrump]

I was thinking about this and it seems a valid concern that monks are going to become glass cannons.

Could you be specific about which changes will make which kinds of monks into glass cannons? And at which level ranges?

AC made my monk near-invincible up until about level 16, then gradually lost usefulness until it was useless at 20. After the changes, I expect things to be a bit more balanced across levels.

[Taimasan]

Yea I am kinda on the fence..I am waiting for live to make my judgement. All I know is that I jumped from 54 unbuffed AC to 70 unbuffed AC on lam. Fresh off a character copy. I don't know if I should celebrate or mourn with my fellow monks! =P

[Aalric]

yes - but how much AC would a fighter in Heavy Armor have?

More importantly, how much PRR do you have compared to said fighter

That is the question

[Ape_Man]

Problem solved: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377700