Monks - the new glass cannons

[redspecter23]

I think some of the point is that any other character besides a monk has an option to wear heavier armor. It may cost them a feat and they may lose evasion, but their core abilities are still there. A caster could theoretically wear heavy plate and with the right buffs, could cast just fine. A monk loses nearly all his class abilities if he chooses to wear any armor. So much so that he might as well not be a monk anymore.

Now I'm not saying that monks should be allowed to wear armor, but monks do deserve more ways to equalize their disadvantages than being in earth stance all the time. A higher dodge bonus than 25% would have been a way to do this. As that is no longer seen as an option by the devs, then PRR options other than earth stance (not necessarily stacking with it) should be made available.

[grandeibra]

@apeman

Are you really comparing a fighter in heavy armor and a shield compared to a monk?

You really think the fighter with heavy armor and a shield should be AS GOOD at avoiding getting hit at all as a monk with high dex/wis and easy-to-move-in clothes?

AC in DnD is a combination of avoiding getting hit at all and hits sliding off without damaging. Monks/dex builds excel at one. Heavy armor/shield builds excel at one. Also DR is a benefit of heavy armor/shields (but in DDO it's pretty insignificant)

[orakio]

I think some of the point is that any other character besides a monk has an option to wear heavier armor. It may cost them a feat and they may lose evasion, but their core abilities are still there. A caster could theoretically wear heavy plate and with the right buffs, could cast just fine. A monk loses nearly all his class abilities if he chooses to wear any armor. So much so that he might as well not be a monk anymore.

Now I'm not saying that monks should be allowed to wear armor, but monks do deserve more ways to equalize their disadvantages than being in earth stance all the time. A higher dodge bonus than 25% would have been a way to do this. As that is no longer seen as an option by the devs, then PRR options other than earth stance (not necessarily stacking with it) should be made available.

The problem is that in max end builds the overall damage mitigation for monks can quickly exceed that of fullplate SD3 + tower shields if that dodge cap goes over 25%. Light Plate wearers are currently capped at around 17-20% MDB, less if they aren't dwarven fighters or if they are using full plate. The calculations I did earlier already showed that a top end build "tank" monk has ever so slightly MORE mitigation than the SD3+Tower shield IF you have equivalent AC. In actual play SD3's have higher theorycrafted AC allowing them to still be slightly superior, but the gap in total character mitigation is far from large, and an increase to dodge cap on cloth armor could ultimately result in monks having more total physical mitigation than a SD3 tank with a tower shield.

It creates a tough situation because there is still a large disparity in toughness of ubermax defense builds and non-defensively focused ones. Changes that aren't analyzed in depth that seem really simple fixes could actually break other aspects of play.

Dex cap on cloth could go up a bit but I don't think there is a whole ton of flex room in it if they want to prevent cloth builds mitigation from potentially exceeding that of heavy armor + shield again.

[orakio]

Thank you for the answer. My little monk generally runs in GM Water for trash and GM Wind for boss fights. Currently on live she's sitting at 69 AC with just ship buffs. Nowhere near enough to tank epic named mobs but she's surprisingly durable against trash, I'm just a bit concerned that all the work I put into her to achieve that will be rendered meaningless.

I should also point out that at present I simply cannot afford to buy the expansion, so I have a horrible suspicion I'm going to go from fairly durable to...rather squishy.

No problem, glad I could try to help. I enjoy doing the breakdown on the numbers especially on slow days at work.

Interestingly for you GM Water stance does give increased dodge% as well now instead of a minor bonus to AC, I am not 100% sure on exact values but you should see slightly higher mitigation numbers than the ones that I quoted for light path general non-earth stance monks.

Unfortunately I do think that without the expansion you are missing out on a lot of tools that can be used to improve your character, and in lower level live content you may see slight decreases in durability but for endgame content you will likely be equivalent or slightly more mitigation than on live. I doubt that as a monk you will be squishy, but you won't feel untouchable against mobs with lower attack scores.

[redspecter23]

The problem is that in max end builds the overall damage mitigation for monks can quickly exceed that of fullplate SD3 + tower shields if that dodge cap goes over 25%. Light Plate wearers are currently capped at around 17-20% MDB, less if they aren't dwarven fighters or if they are using full plate. The calculations I did earlier already showed that a top end build "tank" monk has ever so slightly MORE mitigation than the SD3+Tower shield IF you have equivalent AC. In actual play SD3's have higher theorycrafted AC allowing them to still be slightly superior, but the gap in total character mitigation is far from large, and an increase to dodge cap on cloth armor could ultimately result in monks having more total physical mitigation than a SD3 tank with a tower shield.

It creates a tough situation because there is still a large disparity in toughness of ubermax defense builds and non-defensively focused ones. Changes that aren't analyzed in depth that seem really simple fixes could actually break other aspects of play.

Dex cap on cloth could go up a bit but I don't think there is a whole ton of flex room in it if they want to prevent cloth builds mitigation from potentially exceeding that of heavy armor + shield again.

Well I don't think any armor user should be coming close to 20% dodge potential (from 20 max dex bonus) if monks are capped at just 5 points more. I'm not saying the heavy armor users will be able to max out their dodge easily with current gear, much the same way that monks would have a tough time topping 25% with current gear. I'm just unhappy with a cap that could potentially be reached by armor users with just some minor epic gear additions that could be on the horizon. If a heavy armor user can reach the same dodge potential as a monk, I want the monk to be able to reach the same PRR potential as a heavy armor user.

I'm not suggesting that monks gain more defense without losing dps. I actually quite dislike that the best defensive stance also grants an amazing offensive ability. Heavy armor users start to give up dps potential if they want to max out their PRR. Monks should have to do the same. I'm hoping for more PRR options for monks even if they come at some dps loss.

[Ape_Man]

AC in DnD is a combination of avoiding getting hit at all and hits sliding off without damaging. Monks/dex builds excel at one. Heavy armor/shield builds excel at one. Also DR is a benefit of heavy armor/shields (but in DDO it's pretty insignificant)

So give them more dodge, I'm all for that. Monks and splashes, as well as anything with evasion, should get more dodge in light/no armor.

[Littlebrother]

... If the main change that comes from this is that people have to stop playing monks like they're on a tank/barb and more like the class they're supposed to be then i'm all for it. Rarely do you see rogues currently, running ahead of the group into 10 epic mobs....because they're forced to play a more subtle game, and even with that the top rogues will easily compete on kills with the melees, whilst being the leading squish.

Are you guys really comparing a fighter in heavy armor and a shield compared to a monk with both his fists going and evasion?

You really think the monk should have AS GOOD protect as a guy with a shield and twice the DPS?

+1 to both. IDC how "evasive-y" you are, if there is a dude wearing pajamas and a guy in a full suit of plate armor carrying a tower shield, it makes sense to me to say that the dude in the armor is going to be able to stand up to a beating a little better than the pajama man.

What about dodge? Well, how about you make a dodge feat that increases the dodge at a cost to both concentration and to-hit, because even the best kung-fu-ers are gonna have to at least slow down on hitting something if they're now dodging incoming attacks.

Some passive boost to defense is not the answer... IMO. Think about it, wearing full plate armor actually IS a PASSIVE boost to armor, whereas when someone swings an axe at your head and you DODGE it, that's an ACTIVE dodge. If you're actively dodging something then you would at least lose some of the speed/accuracy/concentration with which you are attacking.

All the super smart people love monks because it rewards our brilliance. It's not the end ofthe world, it's just another challenge.