Monks - the new glass cannons

[Masadique]

Yes, it works for non-armor/shield AC bonuses. That 20 PPR from a twisted Improved:CE looks pretty sweet to.

Oh nice.

Improved combat expertise (min level: 20 - Feat prereq: Combat expertise) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 6secs) The combat expertise grants an additional 20PRR

Just in case anyone was wondering. I really think monks will still be ok as tanks. 2 build points, one feat, and a +3 tome for 15% AC and 20 PRR is pretty amazing.

For that guy who screamed MAD, you can always NOT put 18 points into Wis. I find it works pretty well. Min maxing stats on a monk is quite silly, and always has been.

V

[Masadique]

Just for some clarity,

My view of this suggestion would be to increase each stat equally; essentially giving a monk or monk splash, with 20% dodge, an additional 20 PRR. At least this would do something to mitigate the changes without having to create an additional complex system, as others have proposed.

So monk splashes would be just as good of a monk as a pure monk, but they would also get the perks of another class in addition? That seems quite silly. 2 levels of monk doesn't make you a monk, and it should stay that way. A lot of the old AC problems seemed to arise from trying to balance around pajama fighters.

V

[Quetzacoala]

Forgive my ignorance, as I have not been perusing the forums for information about the expansion until now. It seems that armor class is becoming more important, especially with heavy armor, and thus monks are in trouble do to a reliance on cloth. The suggestions to add more dodge based upon the level of a monk seems like a decent idea, but it seems to me that characters that splash two monk for evasion are getting especially damaged then.

They would only have two levels of monk, and would therefore not qualify for much of the dodge bonuses as it is being proposed, but they would also be reliant on cloth armor as well.

[J1NG]

I had previously suggested in the NDA'd forum a possible solution.

Example (been edited from previous example):

Level 2: +3 AC
Level 5: +3 AC (+6 AC Total), +1% Dodge
Level 10: +3 AC (+9 AC Total), +1% Dodge (2% total)
Level 15: +3 AC (+12 AC Total), +3% Dodge (5% total)
Level 20: +3 AC (+15 AC Total), +5% Dodge (10% total)

This doesn't include any other bonuses from Dex, Wis that may give more Dodge bonuses. But it will give a Pure 20 Monk some base Dodge in built for being 20. Whilst Splash monks get some AC and some minor base Dodge bonuses, but the higher level ones are more evasive.

Just some musings though, nothing serious. Just throwing the usual idea around.

J1NG

[Ape_Man]

So monk splashes would be just as good of a monk as a pure monk, but they would also get the perks of another class in addition? That seems quite silly. 2 levels of monk doesn't make you a monk, and it should stay that way. A lot of the old AC problems seemed to arise from trying to balance around pajama fighters.

V

The benefits of the higher-level stance make that concern to be nonsense.

[Masadique]

The benefits of the higher-level stance make that concern to be nonsense.

I really beg to differ. Most splashes aren't using any stance. Just netting all of the other awesome monk abilities.

[fool101]

So monk splashes would be just as good of a monk as a pure monk, but they would also get the perks of another class in addition? That seems quite silly. 2 levels of monk doesn't make you a monk, and it should stay that way. A lot of the old AC problems seemed to arise from trying to balance around pajama fighters.

V

Ok, but think about it like this:

A 2 level splash often does not have the "uncapped dodge". So theoretically, it would be possible to benefit from the extra PRR I was suggesting. But with the extra bonuses from armor that a clonk could get, for instance, I think the pure (or mostly pure) monk would still benefit the most from this type of change.

This seems like a reasonable way to aid in certain builds that got hurt by the changes

[Kiel]

Im taking a wait and see approach.My main is a pure monk 2nd life.I bought the CE pack but im not renewing vip until i know for sure that ill be able to handle the changes.If i dont like them ill give other recently released mmo's a chance.

Its not nearly as bad as when swg dumbed down the 27+ classes to 9 and gave everyone jedi after working towards that goal for 2 years.

[Ape_Man]

I really beg to differ. Most splashes aren't using any stance. Just netting all of the other awesome monk abilities.

Evasion and AC. What other "awesome" benefits does a 1-2 splash net? Serious question.

[Masadique]

Evasion and AC. What other "awesome" benefits does a 1-2 splash net? Serious question.

Two feats. What else do you want it to have? We don't need 3.0 ranger again.

- 3.0 rangers got about 5 feats at level one then nothing after.

Wis to ac, evasion, solid saves (+2 two two saves fighters suffer in), and 44 more HP (two toughness feats). All said, it's a pretty hefty chunk for just two levels. I don't think that 2 levels needs to give you the dodge, if we get it, bonus monks so badly need.

V

[donblas]

Evasion and AC. What other "awesome" benefits does a 1-2 splash net? Serious question.

Even worse, most of mine don't even get evasion - they are rangers who get it anyway.

And they use TWF for ranger tempest bonuses so don't get to use stances, due to using non-centring weapons. Bow also uncentres you unless you use another feat.

So use 2 non-ranger levels for AC and feats, and lose capstone. It's so Op it must be nerfed!!!!

[Masadique]

Even worse, most of mine don't even get evasion - they are rangers who get it anyway.

And they use TWF for ranger tempest bonuses so don't get to use stances, due to using non-centring weapons. Bow also uncentres you unless you use another feat.

So use 2 non-ranger levels for AC and feats, and lose capstone. It's so Op it must be nerfed!!!!

If it wasn't better than capstone, it wouldn't be used. That fact that it is better than something you get at level 20 is kinda scary.

V

[Malky]

Personal D0000M! level = 19%

Be careful, if your dooom level falls below 0, some unexpectable things might happen.

Like... negative dooom level = dev fanboï ??

[Ape_Man]

If it wasn't better than capstone, it wouldn't be used. That fact that it is better than something you get at level 20 is kinda scary.

V

The fighter and pally capstones are arguably better than the 2 splash as there is a noticeable DPS loss. Rogues . . . forget it, you're an idiot if you splash and give up that capstone.

Only class that doesn't lose much splashing is ranger which is by far the weakest one. Let's see what happens in the ENH pass as if I were a betting man I'd be betting that that 'Whilrling Dervish' thingy in the upper-end of Tempest (100% off-hand STR damage) that Madfloyd leaked will be a melee capstone.

Regardless, when you compare the benefits of higher level stances (particularly Earth), the higher Centered AC bonus, Touch of Death, Shadow fade, quivering palm, light monk abilities including healing curse, etc . . . saying the bulk of the benefits of monks come in the first 1-2 levels is just untrue.

[Ape_Man]

Be careful, if your dooom level falls below 0, some unexpectable things might happen.

Like... negative dooom level = dev fanboï ??

That'll NEVER happen

[Masadique]

Regardless, when you compare the benefits of higher level stances (particularly Earth), the higher Centered AC bonus, Touch of Death, Shadow fade, quivering palm, light monk abilities including healing curse, etc . . . saying the bulk of the benefits of monks come in the first 1-2 levels is just untrue.

The reason I was using 2 levels was that you asked me what else you get from the first two levels. In regards to the higher levels, it really is a hard call. Tier II vs Tier III is a rather large jump for the stances. Tier III vs Tier IV doesn't seem to be as major. It can be very hard to establish later level splashes. I am currently trying to figure out if pure monk or a split will make the better tank. Currently it would be a monk/fighter split, but the changes to AC are making pure monk look much much stronger.

Earth III - Earth IV should be a jump closer to SDII vs SDIII. As is it, the gap is fairly small.

V

[Ape_Man]

The reason I was using 2 levels was that you asked me what else you get from the first two levels. In regards to the higher levels, it really is a hard call. Tier II vs Tier III is a rather large jump for the stances. Tier III vs Tier IV doesn't seem to be as major. It can be very hard to establish later level splashes. I am currently trying to figure out if pure monk or a split will make the better tank. Currently it would be a monk/fighter split, but the changes to AC are making pure monk look much much stronger.

Earth III - Earth IV should be a jump closer to SDII vs SDIII. As is it, the gap is fairly small.

V

The PRR for Earth IV does look a little low . .. unless they're leaving it low as they expect it to be combined with SDIII when the ENH pass hits.

[LeLoric]

Rogues . . . forget it, you're an idiot if you splash and give up that capstone.

You do know that monk wrap attack speed full str offhand hits and doublestrike from air stance can make up for that capstone? You do lose 2 assasinate dc but gain a feat and wis to ac.

[donblas]

Just in case anyone was wondering. I really think monks will still be ok as tanks. 2 build points, one feat, and a +3 tome for 15% AC and 20 PRR is pretty amazing.
V

As you said this is level 20.

Would you want to level a monk/monk splash to level 20 in order to get this? With reduced AC and no PRR this won't be a lot of fun for a monk "tank".

Just take a fighter, slap on any old armor and you'll be a better tank than a monk I suspect

[Failedlegend]

If it wasn't better than capstone, it wouldn't be used. That fact that it is better than something you get at level 20 is kinda scary.

V

Thats actually kind off the point...if Pure 20s were the only viable option because there's nothing of relatively equal gain that can be obtained by multiclassing than Multi-classing becomes pointless...and frankly I stop playing

On the other hand if theres little to no reason to go pure (ie. The Ranger Capstone) the opposite becomes true where NOT multiclassing becomes pointless, IMO the is far less of an issue but for others is not.

A good example of a relatively even trade WAS the Tukaw vs. Pure Sorc both are fairly powerful builds in their own right...although the Tukaw has taken some major hits in viability recently and if the last dev info we got on the enhancement system has been left unchanged the Tukaw and Multi-classing in general will take a huge hit (well except 18/1/1 builds will get a boost if the devs idea to remove level gating goes through)