Monks - the new glass cannons

[LiquidShadow]

Feat: Turn aside blow
When in this stance, your character concentrates on parrying or deflecting enemy blows, so that they hit with less force.
* Stance; converts up to x points of dodge bonus (capped by armour) to f(x) points of PRR.
* Monks (and fighters?) get enhancements to boost the maximum
* Can be selected as a monk or fighter bonus feat

thats awesome idea because paladins will get behind again... dont forget to add 3x cooldown on spells when active

[Don1966]

Think 52 was the max sustainable 'til now. Between 1 more levelup, +8 item instead of +7, +3 insight instead of +2, and the destiny/twists that can add a lot of it...

actually, +8 item, +1 exceptional (these didn't get changed to insight, +2 exceptional did get changed to insight) +3 insight, +6 from destiny, +4 from new bard song.
so,
18 base
6 level ups
3 enhancement
8 item
1 exceptional
3 insight
6 destiny
4 ocean stance
2 capstone
2 yugo pot
4 bard song
1 epic feat
4 tome
2 ship buff
2 alchemical handwraps
total of 66
am i missing anything here?

[Stillwaters]

am i missing anything here?

missing that exceptional +1 was changed to competence +1

missing profane (+1 from litany of the dead)
missing completionist (+2 if you could fit it)
missing store pot (+2)
missing deneith pots (+1 more alchemical they go up to +3 i believe)
missing (+3 more profane from abashai cookie destroyer buff)


so 61 sustainable (+25 modifier) and 75 temp Wisdom (+32 modifier)

I would hate to see Shade's MAX STR after this update

EDIT: oh, and virtual +1, i have given out too much rep in last 24 hours

[redspecter23]

actually, +8 item, +1 exceptional (these didn't get changed to insight, +2 exceptional did get changed to insight) +3 insight, +6 from destiny, +4 from new bard song.
so,
18 base
6 level ups
3 enhancement
8 item
1 exceptional
3 insight
6 destiny
4 ocean stance
2 capstone
2 yugo pot
4 bard song
1 epic feat
4 tome
2 ship buff
2 alchemical handwraps
total of 66
am i missing anything here?

Thanks for doing the math don. That's pretty much what I was thinking when I said 60ish. I wasn't really counting the bard song as that seems a bit situational and I can't see monks starting at 18 (more likely 16, possibly 17), but all the other stuff is theoretically reasonable depending on where one might get +3 insight and potential slotting issues.

[Ap0k]

it may have been suggested at some place, but the problem (next to PRR) seems to be that Fighters and Paladins gain AC with each level (+1 per level iirc) while monks dont. Seeing that monks are the masters of evading blows they should gain +1% dodge per level (or maybe per 2 levels). Imo that would make some logical sense (yeah logic in a fantasy setting :P )

[Stillwaters]

it may have been suggested at some place, but the problem (next to PRR) seems to be that Fighters and Paladins gain AC with each level (+1 per level iirc) while monks dont. Seeing that monks are the masters of evading blows they should gain +1% dodge per level (or maybe per 2 levels). Imo that would make some logical sense (yeah logic in a fantasy setting :P )

You are thinking of "combat training" which got removed from closed beta1 to closed beta2.. and was pretty much the ONLY time devs listened to combat change suggestions in the entirety of time since beta opened. Though reading the reasoning it could have been they couldnt code it correctly, not that they listened to us...
something along the lines of "wasnt working as we intended it to."

[Ap0k]

You are thinking of "combat training" which got removed from closed beta1 to closed beta2.. and was pretty much the ONLY time devs listened to combat change suggestions in the entirety of time since beta opened. Though reading the reasoning it could have been they couldnt code it correctly, not that they listened to us...
something along the lines of "wasnt working as we intended it to."

ok...admittedly im a bit overwhelmed by the amount of information about changes and whats been added and removed again, so I appologize. But I still kinda like the idea of adding some amount of dodge per monk level

I see MrWindUpBird has suggested this as well in this thread. I agree with his assessment.

[Stillwaters]

ok...admittedly im a bit overwhelmed by the amount of information about changes and whats been added and removed again, so I appologize. But I still kinda like the idea of adding some amount of dodge per monk level

I see MrWindUpBird has suggested this as well in this thread. I agree with his assessment.

Oh i agree with you - i said similar thing myself over 5 hours ago in this thread

+1 dodge/2levels and +1 PRR/2levels <-- you could alternate them on odd and even levels for a steady rise.

[Dwarfo]

I saw a named robe with +9 AC on it..its name evades me now but i think its on the named items thread.

[Aalric]

frozen tunic has 8 ac & now there are robes with 9 ac.

I just dont think that "1" ac is going to make the difference when it comes to monks.

BTW, there have been some excellent suggestions in the other thread about how to help monks not be glass cannons - i just wish that the developers would pay some attention to it,

[Osma77]

My opinion:
First - a lot of robes are now granting armor class as well. Saw some randomly created robes that granted +7 armor in addition to pre/suffix. This probably needs to be higher, but at least it lets you put a diffrent bracers on, such as challange air bracers (for dodge).

Second: One easy fix to monks (although i dont know how effective it would be, just thought of it), is to add +1prr and +1 dodge/2 levels. That would give a monk at 20 a total of +20 ac (i think they still get this), +20 prr (more then a leather armor druid with heavy shield), and 10% dodge (more then rogue with improved uncanny dodge, but without the 60% bonus.) This would greatly enhance a monks survivability letting them dodge 1/5 of all incoming damage, resist about 10-15% of what gets through no matter what the stance (and get them fairly high in earth stance) and still grant them easily 40 ac with gear.

Post Script: Please remember that you need MUCH less ac then you used to need. The armor pop-up on the char screen said that with an armor class of 45, my druid had a 30% chance to be missed by level 22 content.

[Ape_Man]

My opinion:
First - a lot of robes are now granting armor class as well. Saw some randomly created robes that granted +7 armor in addition to pre/suffix. This probably needs to be higher, but at least it lets you put a diffrent bracers on, such as challange air bracers (for dodge).

Second: One easy fix to monks (although i dont know how effective it would be, just thought of it), is to add +1prr and +1 dodge/2 levels. That would give a monk at 20 a total of +20 ac (i think they still get this), +20 prr (more then a leather armor druid with heavy shield), and 10% dodge (more then rogue with improved uncanny dodge, but without the 60% bonus.) This would greatly enhance a monks survivability letting them dodge 1/5 of all incoming damage, resist about 10-15% of what gets through no matter what the stance (and get them fairly high in earth stance) and still grant them easily 40 ac with gear.

Post Script: Please remember that you need MUCH less ac then you used to need. The armor pop-up on the char screen said that with an armor class of 45, my druid had a 30% chance to be missed by level 22 content.

And leave monk-splashes screwed?

Tie the additional dodge to people's stats and nobody gets screwed.

[RS-Makk]

And leave monk-splashes screwed?

Tie the additional dodge to people's stats and nobody gets screwed.

I agree. There has to be a way to not meet the objectives while still keeping splash build options on the table. I wouldn't be as concerned if it wasn't for the fact all my armors are outfits (bunch of dt outfits that I spent a loooong time grinding) that are now useless for me. (unless of course they come up with a way to magically change my dt outfits to other armor levels - that would work for me also)

[FranOhmsford]

My responses in COLOR

Quote:
Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
Clerics aren't getting Armour Bonuses/PRR that they should be getting as Hvy Armour Wearers. <-same bonuses under divine power though

They're losing Implosion/Destruction etc. as viable spells.<- bull! cooldown on implosion takes care of most of the penalty from the MAX 5 mobs you will kill from it, destruction and slay living are getting a small nerf if you constantly spammed them

They're losing Damage on Blade Barrier. <- Blade barrier damage is for artificers, and its much easier to find items that boost it now didnt you get the memo?

They're losing Healing power too BUT this is minor. < spell changes have taken most of the GEAR benefits down and raised the value of enhancements and metas, Heal and MASS heal take a hit the other cures and bursts do better

AC/PRR is the big one however - Radiant Servant basically requires that you be standing in the middle of the ruck and the AC changes are going to make AC a requirement so Clerics are going to take FAR FAR more damage. <-- more than they do on live, past about lvl 11??

Clonks will be broken completely by the looks of things. <- totally agree here cloth builds are screwed over HARD

Monks/PMs/Tanks etc. may have it bad BUT:

Clerics are getting the biggest kicking!
My responses in COLOR

1. Combat Training has been removed in it's entirety I see - So rather than giving Clerics the CT they should have had the Devs chose to scrap the whole idea?

2. Implosion has basically gone from a 1 minute cooldown to a 75 second cooldown {Was one minute really not long enough?} - Also Implosion works on ticks - We still haven't heard from a dev whether the Haunting will affect subsequent ticks of the same spell or not.
Destuction and Slay Living have both been nerfed with longer cooldowns.

3. Blade Barrier is now an Arti only spell eh? News to me!

4. Heal and Mass Heal take a hit - And you think this is good?

5. AC is being changed to make it viable - i.e. those without AC are going to take more damage {this is a fact} - If Clerics are unable to get a viable AC/PR they will not be able to stand in the middle of the ruck with Aura and Burst and melee anymore.
This is a huge nerf!

In another thread someone accused me of being a one trick pony - That person clearly does not know me as nothing could be further from the truth.
I build my characters to be capable at all aspects of their class {a throwback to PnP I know} and therefore am most certainly not uber at any one part of that class.
I am not the Uber DC caster - I am not charging into Melee and doing 500pt Crits - I have never seen a 2000pt Heal {or whatever the current max is} or anything close to that.

In my view Clerics need a boost NOT this massive nerf to every part of their class!
It's the Player who takes his/her FS into E-CoF Solo and laughs at it NOT the class!

[Sarnind]

Glass cannon? The new appropriate name is : monk the new glass without cannon

[Don1966]

actually, +8 item, +1 exceptional (these didn't get changed to insight, +2 exceptional did get changed to insight) +3 insight, +6 from destiny, +4 from new bard song.
so,
18 base
6 level ups
3 enhancement
8 item
1 exceptional
3 insight
6 destiny
4 ocean stance
2 capstone
2 yugo pot
4 bard song
1 epic feat
4 tome
2 ship buff
2 alchemical handwraps
total of 66
am i missing anything here?

missing that exceptional +1 was changed to competence +1

missing profane (+1 from litany of the dead)
missing completionist (+2 if you could fit it)
missing store pot (+2)
missing deneith pots (+1 more alchemical they go up to +3 i believe)
missing (+3 more profane from abashai cookie destroyer buff)


so 61 sustainable (+25 modifier) and 75 temp Wisdom (+32 modifier)

I would hate to see Shade's MAX STR after this update

EDIT: oh, and virtual +1, i have given out too much rep in last 24 hours

we both missed +1 from human enhancement. doh!!

[CarpeNoctu]

Armor at lvl 25 gives +7from enhancement
and MAX 25 or 27AC (if you can fill the dex portion),

Shields add +7 from enhancement and 9AC more (3 more if you went tower shield and didnt mind losing MDB)
32 or 34(armor) + 16(heavy shield)
= 32 to 53AC (add more potentially from DEX + mobility or action point)

Cloth/bracers gives MAX 8 enhancement to AC,
monk levels (centered bonuses) give MAX 15 bonus to AC, most of that unavailable to a splash
(more from DEX and WIS) can assume 30s in each for +20AC maximum +30AC
20 to 30(stat) + 0 to 15(centered) +8(cloth/bracer)
= 28 to 53AC (add more potentially from stat boost pots etc)

The problem isn't the AC from cloth... it's the MITIGATION see HERE for why
Its the PRR is nonexistent, and the no MDB dodgecap is meaningless
Without these factors players will be ripped apart in lvl 20+ content.

Thanx for the explanation and the link... It was helpful and informative... But...

I'm still not really getting the problem. See, I almost exclusively solo. Generally speaking, I only group with friends who request my help or if I need a raid run and there are some friends going anyway... My primary alt is a capped Drow Dark Monk with next to no ac. When I copied her to Lamannia, that low ac translated in the new system to nearly no ac. She had, iirc, about a 34% miss chance or something similar. Still, I grabbed a hire and ran the Kings Forest, a couple of the lvl 19 quests and farmed one of the lvl 21 quests 5 or 6 times... I only died once in all of that, and it was only because I ran into three Astral Panthers in the Forest that they proved too much, though I didn't have too much of a problem with one or two. On Live, with this same Monk, I've been running the Devil Battlefield (mostly solo) since lvl 15. Now, she's not good enough to solo all of the rares, but she has taken a few of them alone.

As I say this, bear in mind that I'm speaking from a very limited point of view since I really do not understand this whole system as well as many of you do, nor have I ever found it interesting enough to wade through all the numbers. I'm not pointing any fingers or making any statements of judgement or "fact" but rather explaining how things look for me, from my limited perspective of limited understanding (in other words, I have an abundance of ignorance).

Before now, if we wanted a monk to have any hope of achieving any meaningful ac, we had no choice but to roll a Wis based Ocean stance monk. I've known only one monk that has done such a thing (Halfling, Wis and Dex based, Massive equipment farmed, could hit ac right around 90 self buffed and could solo farm for Icy which I've never been able to do). This fact did not stop us from rolling Warforged, Drow, Human, Half Elf, Half Orc etc. with next to no Wisdom, and feeding mostly Dex, Str or Con. Now, we're told about this PRR thing and told that we have to be in Mountain Stance if we want the PRR thing going for us.

The one and only potential problem I see is that we can't seem to have the PRR (which we never had before, though I do realize the changes are important to this) and the AC bonus from Wis at the same time. Aside from that... My monk is doing just fine and it APPEARS that the complaint is simply all about us not getting what we never had before...

So, please, feel free to point out my error... I'd really like to understand this. Just keep in mind that simple and direct are best for me, if possible

[CarpeNoctu]

My thoughts are this:

Each stance should offer both an offensive and defensive benefit.

Earth stance is the only one that offers any real defensive and offensive punch on Lamania currently. I'd give a substantial buff to water's dodge % and possibly tack on some concealment bonuses to air and/or fire in the neighborhood of 40%+ for top tiers to place it near permadisplacement levels.

Adding wisdom bonus to dodge would probably then put you right where you need to be defensively. I hear people talking about mid 30ish wisdom at end game. I cry bs on that. My monk should be nearing 60 wisdom at end game. That's 25% dodge right there. Combined with items and enhancements, that gets a wisdom based monk up to 50%+ dodge which is where I think a well built monk should be at end game. Sure you can build a monk strength based or not put effort into raising wisdom, but if you want to reap the rewards of a class with wisdom as a prime attribute, you should expect to have to invest heavily in it. Min/max str/con with dumped wisdom monks could be a thing of the past.

I disagree with this... To my mind, the stances, paths etc are all about sacrifice. We sacrifice attack for defense, we sacrifice defense for damage etc. etc. If we can choose 'this' stance or 'that' stance and have it all, what would be the point in playing a monk? The cool animation?

Another Monk I've played around with on Lama is my zero Wis Str/Con, Mountain Stance Warforged Monk/Fighter and I just rolled a Horc, Str build (again, next to no Wis) and I'm hoping the devs will pop in with some xp at some point so I can see how they both do in end game content, but playing around in the normal at lvl quests (the Horc, as I said, is new and the Warforged is lvl 11 or 12 atm) they've been doing great... Of course, I could roll a zero cha sorc or a zero str barb and do great in the harbor, so... lol

[redspecter23]

I disagree with this... To my mind, the stances, paths etc are all about sacrifice. We sacrifice attack for defense, we sacrifice defense for damage etc. etc. If we can choose 'this' stance or 'that' stance and have it all, what would be the point in playing a monk? The cool animation?

Another Monk I've played around with on Lama is my zero Wis Str/Con, Mountain Stance Warforged Monk/Fighter and I just rolled a Horc, Str build (again, next to no Wis) and I'm hoping the devs will pop in with some xp at some point so I can see how they both do in end game content, but playing around in the normal at lvl quests (the Horc, as I said, is new and the Warforged is lvl 11 or 12 atm) they've been doing great... Of course, I could roll a zero cha sorc or a zero str barb and do great in the harbor, so... lol

I actually agree with you. With any given stance you should give up something. I suppose it comes down to how you look at it. If I'm in fire stance and switch to air stance, I have given up my faster ki generation in favor of more offense. If I swap to water, I then give up my attack speed for more ac and better tactics.

The problem I have is that earth is just far and away the best stance as it adds both meaningful offense and defense to a build. I find it a very powerful stance on lama to the exclusion of the other stances. The option is there to buff the other stances so they all offer differing forms of offense/defense or provide a penalty to earth stance possibly in the form of reduced dodge while it's active. This would be what you'd have to give up for some form of DR on a cloth wearing toon.

I guess my argument to counter your first point is that currently earth stance is a stance without sacrifice so others need a buff or it needs a nerf in order for them all to be more balanced. Ki gen from fire isn't overly necessary anymore. The crit multiplier matches the double strike from air and earth even gives an ac bonus to bring it close to what water adds defensively.

[CarpeNoctu]

I actually agree with you. With any given stance you should give up something. I suppose it comes down to how you look at it. If I'm in fire stance and switch to air stance, I have given up my faster ki generation in favor of more offense. If I swap to water, I then give up my attack speed for more ac and better tactics.

The problem I have is that earth is just far and away the best stance as it adds both meaningful offense and defense to a build. I find it a very powerful stance on lama to the exclusion of the other stances. The option is there to buff the other stances so they all offer differing forms of offense/defense or provide a penalty to earth stance possibly in the form of reduced dodge while it's active. This would be what you'd have to give up for some form of DR on a cloth wearing toon.

I guess my argument to counter your first point is that currently earth stance is a stance without sacrifice so others need a buff or it needs a nerf in order for them all to be more balanced. Ki gen from fire isn't overly necessary anymore. The crit multiplier matches the double strike from air and earth even gives an ac bonus to bring it close to what water adds defensively.

Ok... I get what you're saying, now. Thanx for the clarification. On that note, I must agree. The biggest reason I keep building dex monks is that all other stances feel like they're in slow motion to me, so it's not necessarily about the strength of the build, but about my perception... It's kind of like the sheer agony of logging from my lvl 20 Monk after running around the city for a while doing some trading and jumping on the lvl 3 Fighter I rolled just to help a friend lvl up a bit... Moving from a capped Monk with 30% Striding to the lvl 3 with no striding is just horrible lol.

Given that the only obvious downside of the Mountain stance Monk is how slow it is, it would be nice if we could keep the sacrifice aspect while giving a minor boost to the others, even if they don't exactly make it to equality. Just enough to keep the other stances interesting enough for others to play.

I say 'others' because I'll just keep rolling them the way I like and, since I solo so much, not really caring if they're gimps lol