Monks - the new glass cannons

[redspecter23]

Since it appears that the old style of thinking and 95% melee mitigation are things the devs do not agree with, I suppose the questions should be asked.

1. How much of a beating are melee supposed to be taking by dev standards? 50% overall? 70%? Higher with maximum effort?

2. How are the melee supposed to deal with the incoming damage? In raids, a dedicated healer goes a long way. In 1 -20 leveling content, are we to rely on cure serious pots that barely held up before?

3. How much of a beating are casters supposed to be taking relative to the beatings that melee take, from a dev standpoint? And are the beating the casters are currently receiving reflecting those numbers? Any plans to reduce the survivability of casters relative to melee at some point? I think air elementals all on their own drop melee survivability a few points compared to casters. Could you add an elemental that specifically targets and massively cripples anyone that ISN'T in melee range? Maybe give earth elementals an anti magic debuff for 20 seconds to tack on to any failed earth grab check. Annoying? Yes, but no more so than an air elemental is to a melee.

4. Are there plans to provide additional defenses to melee for heroic content in the enhancement pass? Casters and divines do not need a babysitter for leveling content (or epic for that matter). I worry that low level melee having their ac knocked down will become more fragile than before, which I assume is what the dev goal is. How are we to handle the higher incoming damage without bringing a dedicated healer along or settling for normal and hard content while casters breeze through elite whether in alone or in a party and reap maximum xp.

[redspecter23]

edit: double post

[Skeald]

In another thread Eladrin made this comment:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin

In the current build, we're giving monks 2% dodge when defensively centered at levels 1, 2, and 4. They should also gain 15 points of armor class as they level.

We're still watching them.

end Quote



While this is a step in the right direction I, for one, do not consider this enough of a fix for monks. Let me state my case, monk is my favorite class, and I have several both light and dark.

While this new change does help, and will specifically help the splash builds, as it is very front loaded, it does not go far enough for people like me that have level 20 pure monks.

With the new system we will be on par with the basic dodge that rogues and barbarians get but we still do not have the uncanny dodge equivalent that these classes have (and I’m not necessarily saying we should have them). However, now it looks like if we want a true dodgy type of character we will need to splash 2 levels of rogue onto our monks, this to me just seems wrong.

What I am proposing is a sliding buff to dodge based on Wisdom. At each level we can gain a stacking +1% dodge that is caped by our wisdom score. In other words +1% at first, +2% at second, ect. And capped of course by our wisdom modifier so a character with a 30 wisdom would ultimately cap at +10% dodge (at 10th level).

The game mechanics are in place for other classes/feats. Examples being artificers bonus to scrolls, ect as their level rises, the Monk Cleric dilly for half elves (this is a wisdom to Ac thing that slides by level/enhancement), and monk ac bonus (as currently implemented on lam).

This method will allow for Splash monks to get some dodge (if they have the wisdom to allow it), and it will allow pure monks to gain additional dodge, over and above what a splash build would get, up to 20% at level 20 if they have a 50 wisdom.

I do not see this as game breaking in any way – we now have barbs and rogues with 50% dodge 25% of the time after all.

I have little problem with the current changes to AC for my monks, or their lack of PRR, (IMO cloth should not suck up any damage) but monks should be the dodgiest class available NOT BARBARIANS, and should run neck and neck with rogues in this area.

I am curious to hear what you all think about this.



As a side note i have not seen this change to dodge recieved in the new release notes - an oversight, in a leter build, minds changed ????

[Aerendil]

In another thread Eladrin made this comment:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eladrin

In the current build, we're giving monks 2% dodge when defensively centered at levels 1, 2, and 4. They should also gain 15 points of armor class as they level.

We're still watching them.

end Quote


*snip*
I have little problem with the current changes to AC for my monks, or their lack of PRR, (IMO cloth should not suck up any damage) but monks should be the dodgiest class available NOT BARBARIANS, and should run neck and neck with rogues in this area.

I am curious to hear what you all think about this.



As a side note i have not seen this change to dodge recieved in the new release notes - an oversight, in a leter build, minds changed ????

Two quick thoughts:
1) Is the AC coming into effect for those levels? It wasn't explicitly stated in the release notes - only the dodge portion - so I'm curious if it made it in and/or whether it's a bug.

2) Agreed regarding Dodge. +20% at level 20 wouldn't be unfair at all, considering the complete lack of PRR.
The way it's implemented right now, it only benefits the splashes - many of which I wonder if they'll continue to stay splash at all, or go for the armoured route for the PRR (for example, will we see 18 Ranger / 2 Fighter as the new split instead of 18/1/1, so as to make use of PRR?).

Like Skeald, I can understand the concept of lack of PRR on a Monk. They have nothing to absorb the damage, outside of their epic/10 DR and earth stance. Fair enough. But then to even that playing field, since AC is no longer a foolproof way of mitigating damage, their should be a noticeable increase in Dodge.

[redspecter23]

Just a note here as I just got back from Lama testing. Hoping to get some confirmation from others. The text in the AC breakdown on the character sheet lists my current dodge (20% on the toon I was looking at) but also lists "max dodge: 25%" I don't want to cry doom on this quite yet, but can someone else confirm that dodge now has a hard cap of 25% for cloth users? If so, this is very disheartening to say the least.

[rsking]

tod is not a death effect, it does 500 negative dmg or 250 on a save, so unless the hard to kill makes them impervious to negative dmg then the tod will work, though quivering palm hardly works less you invest heavily in it, and... with the hard to kill i will be taking it off my bar completely

The TOD on monks hurt the dark monks big time when they made TOD a negative damage and essentially plus gave it a save witch took the dps off of the dark monk. plus it doesn't work on constructs and there's a lot of those in the cannith packs not to mention VON and i can't think of any other packs off the top of my head (memorized too many how to complete this quest, puzzles, maps, ect.) and when they made the TOD less effective agains bosses that was another nerf to a dark monks dps so you had to make a str monk just to be able to do decent damage with out hand wraps. so that basicaly killed the dark monk and now the light monks are even stronger than dark monks on the live servers scents they added tier 3 to the light monks but its seems theres no point in makeing a dark monk any more from what i can see now.

[Erekose]

They lose relative survivability compared to what they had before in heroic dungeons. Obviously everyone is gaining as far as epic defenses are concerned, though those gains are varied. I think monks do have a lot going for them and are still quite survivable, when compared to other melee. It is just a shock to go from near unhittable in heroic content to smacked around like a rag doll while other classes like rogue, barb, pally and fighter get boosts to overall defenses compared to what they had on live.

It is clear that melee are meant to be hit much more than 5% from a dev perspective. Whether that is the right line of thinking or not is where my concern lies

My thoughts would be to enhance what they already have, increase SR, remove the epic bypass on DR. AC is only one of a number of aspects to survivability. If you spec your Monk right you can get a decent amount of AC at the cost of DPS. That to me seems to be a decision for each player, dps or AC. Either way you still retain all of the inherent abilities. I don't want to see high dps, un-hittable AC, with SR and improved evasion with DR on a melee. That to me is God mode and is a complete imbalance.

[redspecter23]

My thoughts would be to enhance what they already have, increase SR, remove the epic bypass on DR. AC is only one of a number of aspects to survivability. If you spec your Monk right you can get a decent amount of AC at the cost of DPS. That to me seems to be a decision for each player, dps or AC. Either way you still retain all of the inherent abilities. I don't want to see high dps, un-hittable AC, with SR and improved evasion with DR on a melee. That to me is God mode and is a complete imbalance.

With the right combination of destinies and twists, I think you could see an extremely powerful and defensive melee. Not max dps mind you, but very strong... and the casters will still be nuking things faster There are a number of destiny combinations I want to try to see if I can bring my defenses up enough that it makes up for the ac loss with U14.

[AylinIsAwesome]

The TOD on monks hurt the dark monks big time when they made TOD a negative damage and essentially plus gave it a save witch took the dps off of the dark monk. plus it doesn't work on constructs and there's a lot of those in the cannith packs not to mention VON and i can't think of any other packs off the top of my head (memorized too many how to complete this quest, puzzles, maps, ect.) and when they made the TOD less effective agains bosses that was another nerf to a dark monks dps so you had to make a str monk just to be able to do decent damage with out hand wraps. so that basicaly killed the dark monk and now the light monks are even stronger than dark monks on the live servers scents they added tier 3 to the light monks but its seems theres no point in makeing a dark monk any more from what i can see now.

ToD didn't lose as much as you're saying.

It did change to negative energy damage, which does limit the number of effective targets.

However, the change to the damage type is the only loss, as the save is negated by ToD now triggering on off-hand attacks. Against things that are vulnerable to negative energy damage, ToD now hits for more damage than it did before.

(Assuming you hit on 2-20, missing on a 1):
Old ToD:
1: 0
2-20: 500
Average: 475

(Assuming you hit on a 2-20, missing on a 1, and mobs only fail ToD save on a 1, and you are using GM Wind Stance):
New ToD:
1: 0
2-20:
17.1%: 250
.9%: 500
1.805%: 500
.19%: 750
.005%: 1000
64.98%: 500
6.84%: 750
.18%: 1000
6.859%: 750
1.083%: 1000
.057%: 1250
.001%: 1500

Average: 479.904

Having a high WIS score and/or more doublestrike from items, combined with cursing enemies to have negative energy vulnerability (like through Touch of Despair), makes the new ToD better than the old one, but only against things that actually take negative energy damage.

[Archangel666]

The problem with those equations is that nobody will be hitting on a 2-20 anymore with the new combat system, so there's a good chance that a Dark Monk will trigger ToD and just see...

miss...

Byebye 50 Ki. I didn't want you anyway.

[AylinIsAwesome]

The problem with those equations is that nobody will be hitting on a 2-20 anymore with the new combat system, so there's a good chance that a Dark Monk will trigger ToD and just see...

miss...

Byebye 50 Ki. I didn't want you anyway.

Even so, the new ToD, when it hits, does on average 505.163 damage, which is more than the 500 damage the old one did when it hit.

[Archangel666]

Even so, the new ToD, when it hits, does on average 505.163 damage, which is more than the 500 damage the old one did when it hit.

Perhaps, but with a few crappy dice rolls I could quite easily see two or three missed ToD's and when you finally do land one you find that you've actually spent 150-200 Ki for that 505.163 damage.

Just pointing it out.

[orakio]

Two quick thoughts:
1) Is the AC coming into effect for those levels? It wasn't explicitly stated in the release notes - only the dodge portion - so I'm curious if it made it in and/or whether it's a bug.

2) Agreed regarding Dodge. +20% at level 20 wouldn't be unfair at all, considering the complete lack of PRR.
The way it's implemented right now, it only benefits the splashes - many of which I wonder if they'll continue to stay splash at all, or go for the armoured route for the PRR (for example, will we see 18 Ranger / 2 Fighter as the new split instead of 18/1/1, so as to make use of PRR?).

Like Skeald, I can understand the concept of lack of PRR on a Monk. They have nothing to absorb the damage, outside of their epic/10 DR and earth stance. Fair enough. But then to even that playing field, since AC is no longer a foolproof way of mitigating damage, their should be a noticeable increase in Dodge.

20% dodge is far far more than a monk needs. Compare the monk to other dps setups, since it is more than able to be considered dps while "tanking". A monk in earth stances sees 15PRR + 6% inherent dodge. A barbarian in medium armor sees 15PRR +6% dodge from imp uncanny. A rogue in medium armor sees 12 PRR +6% dodge from imp uncanny. A ranger in medium is 15PRR, maybe more with tempest and feats, and 0 dodge. A fighter in heavy sees 20 PRR + 0 inherent dodge. A paladin in heavy is 20 PRR + 0 inherent dodge. All of those are roughly equivalent numbers.

It is only when a player gives up dps by wearing a shield that the AC and total PRR become higher, that player is making a large dps sacrifice to do so and is justified in the mitigation increase that comes from wearing a shield. Comparing situations in which multiple variables come into play (ED's + PrE's + gear choices+ feats) against a class baseline isn't a fair comparison. Monks are seeing overall resistance to damage completely equivalent to other classes before these additional factors come into play, meaning the combat system is properly balanced and classes are properly designed BEFORE taking into account PrE's/enhancements/etc.

If there are any problems with monks maximum potential mitigation when built completely around it then they should be addressed through feats/enhancements/PrE's, not through giving monks 14% additional dodge for no reason.

[fatherpirate]

Disclaimer: not a heavy monk player but I see the pickle they are in.

Either / or

Either the monks need a new kind of special monk only armor OR they need some other damage mitigation

Monks either need damage resistance or more AC or both

or a bunch more hit points


no clue which we they plan on doing it

[orakio]

@fatherpirate

Did a breakdown of PRR available for a full SD3 Heavy plate wearer + tower shield versus a pure monk and a 12monk/6fighter/2X multiclass build in the thread linked below.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=93

Even before the mitigation capabilities from dodge comes into play, monks appear to be entirely competetive with SD3 in terms of overall mitigation available for builds that are fully defensively specc'd. Monks should not need any bonuses to AC or dodge or any other mitigation stat, although more hit points is a potential point of discussion.

If you don't want to read the post the basic breakdown is this:
Full PRR for SD3 with tower shield = 52.4949% mitigation from PRR, for a 12/6/2 it is 39.2159% and for 20 monk it is 36.4899% mitigation. When considering the additional 15% incorporeal bonus provided by ninja spy shadow fade over the ghostly item effect, overall mitigation becomes close enough to be a very minor difference, especially considering you are comparing a low dps non evasion full defensive tank versus a moderate dps twf tank with imp evasion.

This comparison does nothing to take dodge into account, which is easier to acquire for monks due to the 6% built in dodge as well as the 25% cap on dodge for cloth versus typically lower for heavy armor prior to feats/metal types/enhancements/etc.

[Archangel666]

@fatherpirate

Did a breakdown of PRR available for a full SD3 Heavy plate wearer + tower shield versus a pure monk and a 12monk/6fighter/2X multiclass build in the thread linked below.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=93

Even before the mitigation capabilities from dodge comes into play, monks appear to be entirely competetive with SD3 in terms of overall mitigation available for builds that are fully defensively specc'd. Monks should not need any bonuses to AC or dodge or any other mitigation stat, although more hit points is a potential point of discussion.

If you don't want to read the post the basic breakdown is this:
Full PRR for SD3 with tower shield = 52.4949% mitigation from PRR, for a 12/6/2 it is 39.2159% and for 20 monk it is 36.4899% mitigation. When considering the additional 15% incorporeal bonus provided by ninja spy shadow fade over the ghostly item effect, overall mitigation becomes close enough to be a very minor difference, especially considering you are comparing a low dps non evasion full defensive tank versus a moderate dps twf tank with imp evasion.

This comparison does nothing to take dodge into account, which is easier to acquire for monks due to the 6% built in dodge as well as the 25% cap on dodge for cloth versus typically lower for heavy armor prior to feats/metal types/enhancements/etc.

Question. How do Monks look when they don't have Shadow Fade (Light Monks) and don't use Mountain Stance (Some people don't want to cause potential grief for parties with 70% Hate)?

[Aalric]

Question. How do Monks look when they don't have Shadow Fade (Light Monks) and don't use Mountain Stance (Some people don't want to cause potential grief for parties with 70% Hate)?

Dead

They look dead

[orakio]

Question. How do Monks look when they don't have Shadow Fade (Light Monks) and don't use Mountain Stance (Some people don't want to cause potential grief for parties with 70% Hate)?

It is a variable amount really because somebody that isn't intending to tank also likely doesn't have the unyielding sentinel stance or improved combat expertise but they are still options for survivability for anyone that wants to increase it.

You could max potential have 70 PRR as a cloth wearer without earthstance or shields or SD/DoS, but likely numbers will be significantly lower than that figure.

I would expect a pure dps light path monk to be sitting at 0-15 PRR, basically having a planar focus of prowess as their only source of PRR. They would have 6% built in dodge, but a much wider range of potential dodge over that unless they utilize water stance or have the dodge feat. They would most likely have more AC than light and medium armor wearers, and close to or still exceeding that of heavy armor wearers that aren't utilizing shields and defensive PrE stances.

In comparison your average "armored" character would have 26-28 PRR for light armor, 32.5-36.25 for medium, and 39-44 PRR for heavy armor with the planar focus.

Gives you 14.9472%(for light armor)-23.2302% after AC mitigation for a heavy armored character with focus versus 9.0962% after AC for the cloth armored monk. Which means monks that aren't seeking defensive increases through feats/enhancements/PrE's would need ~8% more dodge from items than the heavy armor character to reach the equivalent mitigation to the heavy armor character, and monks with no defensive investments are just barely ahead of light armor wearers (except rogues/barbs with uncanny dodge) in post AC mitigation.

If you look to eliminate just 1 factor (i.e. not both dark path and earthstance at same time) DPS dark path monks would have more mitigation still without earthstance at 30.0962% after AC combined PRR+shadow fade, and light path earth stance monks would have a combined 22.9195% mitigation after AC which is just slightly under heavy armor.

[Archangel666]

It is a variable amount really because somebody that isn't intending to tank also likely doesn't have the unyielding sentinel stance or improved combat expertise but they are still options for survivability for anyone that wants to increase it.

You could max potential have 70 PRR as a cloth wearer without earthstance or shields or SD/DoS, but likely numbers will be significantly lower than that figure.

I would expect a pure dps light path monk to be sitting at 0-15 PRR, basically having a planar focus of prowess as their only source of PRR. They would have 6% built in dodge, but a much wider range of potential dodge over that unless they utilize water stance or have the dodge feat. They would most likely have more AC than light and medium armor wearers, and close to or still exceeding that of heavy armor wearers that aren't utilizing shields and defensive PrE stances.

In comparison your average "armored" character would have 26-28 PRR for light armor, 32.5-36.25 for medium, and 39-44 PRR for heavy armor with the planar focus.

Gives you 14.9472%(for light armor)-23.2302% after AC mitigation for a heavy armored character with focus versus 9.0962% after AC for the cloth armored monk. Which means monks that aren't seeking defensive increases through feats/enhancements/PrE's would need ~8% more dodge from items than the heavy armor character to reach the equivalent mitigation to the heavy armor character, and monks with no defensive investments are just barely ahead of light armor wearers (except rogues/barbs with uncanny dodge) in post AC mitigation.

If you look to eliminate just 1 factor (i.e. not both dark path and earthstance at same time) DPS dark path monks would have more mitigation still without earthstance at 30.0962% after AC combined PRR+shadow fade, and light path earth stance monks would have a combined 22.9195% mitigation after AC which is just slightly under heavy armor.

Thank you for the answer. My little monk generally runs in GM Water for trash and GM Wind for boss fights. Currently on live she's sitting at 69 AC with just ship buffs. Nowhere near enough to tank epic named mobs but she's surprisingly durable against trash, I'm just a bit concerned that all the work I put into her to achieve that will be rendered meaningless.

I should also point out that at present I simply cannot afford to buy the expansion, so I have a horrible suspicion I'm going to go from fairly durable to...rather squishy.

[Ape_Man]

Are you guys really comparing a fighter in heavy armor and a shield compared to a monk with both his fists going and evasion?

You really think the monk should have AS GOOD protect as a guy with a shield and twice the DPS?