Monks - the new glass cannons

[Masadique]

As you said this is level 20.

Would you want to level a monk/monk splash to level 20 in order to get this? With reduced AC and no PRR this won't be a lot of fun for a monk "tank".

Just take a fighter, slap on any old armor and you'll be a better tank than a monk I suspect

Would I want to level a monk to 20 so he can become a tank? Yes... Leveling tanks in general is boring business. I've done it about 6 times already though, and I really don't mind anymore.

Fighters make different tanks. That's the point, other classes do different things. Even paladin vs fighter is different in a lot of ways. My monk tank does a lot more damage than my fighter tank. My fighter soaks a lot better. My monk has insanely high healing amp. My fighter can shield block.

Honestly, the biggest downside I see to going pure monk, I may still have to go 2 levels of fighter, is the lack of maxed out intimidate.

Thats actually kind off the point...if Pure 20s were the only viable option because there's nothing of relatively equal gain that can be obtained by multiclassing than Multi-classing becomes pointless...and frankly I stop playing

On the other hand if theres little to no reason to go pure (ie. The Ranger Capstone) the opposite becomes true where NOT multiclassing becomes pointless, IMO the is far less of an issue but for others is not.

A good example of a relatively even trade WAS the Tukaw vs. Pure Sorc both are fairly powerful builds in their own right...although the Tukaw has taken some major hits in viability recently and if the last dev info we got on the enhancement system has been left unchanged the Tukaw and Multi-classing in general will take a huge hit (well except 18/1/1 builds will get a boost if the devs idea to remove level gating goes through)

I'm not saying 20 is the only option. I really don't know if I want to go 12 monk/8 fighter for SD, or if I want 20 monk. I think 20 makes more sense right now for epic tanking because they have no viable ways to make monks beefier - so the 8 AC from 8 more monk levels is super attractive.

I wish 12 monk would still allow me to tank, but I just don't see it happening until the enhancement revamp UNLESS the devs give monks a bit of loving in regards to AC or dodge, like I said I feel PRR should stay with Earth Stance and heavy armors. I don't build for things that don't exist however, so I am planning my new tanks around what we have. This means making the most of EDs to get those little bits of AC, PRR, and dodge while still maintaining the high DPS that makes monk tanks great.

V

[Kiel]

I wonder if theyll change the playability when rolling monks from very good to challenging?Or is this payback for them finally fixing wraps completely?

Hey thanks for rebuilding the ship of ddo but um it still leaks.

Ah no wonder monks are 50 percent off in the ddo store this week.

[Rhysem]

Oh nice.

Improved combat expertise (min level: 20 - Feat prereq: Combat expertise) (1 rank - 2 AP): (Active Cooldown: 6secs) The combat expertise grants an additional 20PRR

Just in case anyone was wondering. I really think monks will still be ok as tanks. 2 build points, one feat, and a +3 tome for 15% AC and 20 PRR is pretty amazing.

For that guy who screamed MAD, you can always NOT put 18 points into Wis. I find it works pretty well. Min maxing stats on a monk is quite silly, and always has been.

V

Thanks for sticking your foot in your mouth for the world to see, but my monk didn't start with anything over 16 before racial adjustments (and the only thing over it after was, I think, dex at 17 since I'm currently stuck as a halfling and haven't TR'd yet -- waiting to see if monk is viable post the changes). Not everyone is a third life TR where the build points are a huge giant win for MAD classes. First lifers should be viable too, and needing 4 stats out of 6 is already close to too much.

The first lifer also isn't likely wandering around with a +3 tome, especially to a non-primary stat for their class. That shouldn't prevent them from tanking. Not to mention no taking till you're 21 (unless you found a magic feat slot at 20? No? Okay) to actually be able to tank, plus all the other CE stance issues (no PA, turning off on finishers -- or have they finally fixed that?).

[Aalric]

1 of the beauties of the monk is (or I should say was) that it could have decent AC (not the highest, but close) without losing decent dps. This is simply now gone.

A monk's AC will be behind an armored melee & not having any decent PRR will really bite. They also don't have the hp of other melee, which will make the problem bigger. & the biggest thing is that a Melee really no longer needs a shield to get a high AC/ PRR so they can also get decent dps (taking away another monk advantage)

No, they are definately glass cannons now. Can they survive? Of course they can, just as they survive in epics till now. But they are now sub-optimal. Why take a monk when you could take a figher with more AC, more PRR, the same dps & more hp to boot?

The sadest thing is, imo, that we have had some interesting suggestions that could have helped & we seem to have zero interest from the developers about this. It may still change but I'm not holding my breath. Afterall, Rangers were nerfed to hell & back in U5 & they still won't aknowledge it

Welcome to monks, the new rangers,

[Aerendil]

Has anyone actually playtested Monks yet on Llama, or is this going to remain a pure speculation thread?


My 2cp:

1) Dodge - yes, I feel Monks should get some more dodge in some way, shape, or form. A base +dodge with their AC increments could work, as could a change to Air stance.
It doesn't make sense that Rogues and *Barbarians* are the dodgiest classes, when the guy who doesn't wear any armour at all doesn't get any latent dodge bonuses.

2) Stances - so far Earth stance was revised to add PRR. Devs could easily change the others as well - perhaps, as mentioned above, add +dodge to Air stance; +AC to Water stance; and ...I don't know, something else to Fire to make it actually attractive.

3) PRR - yeah, that's the only downside to being in pajamas, and where Monks may run into some serious issues. You're not good at absorbing hits. I guess that's what Earth stance is for, should you need it; otherwise, in a raid, you can rely on your healers to keep you up (and your FoL if light monk), and solo you have Wholeness as a full heal every 3 min or so which is far more than many other classes have.

I'd like to see some concrete evidence of Monks in epic content, however, and see how much of an issue this is before we continue shouting that the sky is falling when it may, in fact, not be....

[donblas]

1 of the beauties of the monk is (or I should say was) A monk's AC will be behind an armored melee & not having any decent PRR will really bite. They also don't have the hp of other melee, which will make the problem bigger. & the biggest thing is that a Melee really no longer needs a shield to get a high AC/ PRR so they can also get decent dps (taking away another monk advantage)

No, they are definately glass cannons now. Can they survive? Of course they can, just as they survive in epics till now. But they are now sub-optimal. Why take a monk when you could take a figher with more AC, more PRR, the same dps & more hp to boot?

The sadest thing is, imo, that we have had some interesting suggestions that could have helped & we seem to have zero interest from the developers about this. It may still change but I'm not holding my breath. Afterall, Rangers were nerfed to hell & back in U5 & they still won't aknowledge it

Welcome to monks, the new rangers,

+1

The devs keep saying that one of the strengths of DDo that they want to preserve is the creativity that multiclassing brings and the variety of useful builds that can be made..

Don't tell us this is what you want devs - show us this is what you want.

[donblas]

Has anyone actually playtested Monks yet on Llama, or is this going to remain a pure speculation thread?

I'd like to see some concrete evidence of Monks in epic content, however, and see how much of an issue this is before we continue shouting that the sky is falling when it may, in fact, not be....

Most toons don't play epics and the changes affect all toons, not just epic ones. If the combat system changes had fixed AC problems in epics totally and perfectly, they still would be bad if they adversely afftected gameplay in low-mid levels where most toons play. They have failed in the latter and I don't think they achieved the former.

[Ape_Man]

You do know that monk wrap attack speed full str offhand hits and doublestrike from air stance can make up for that capstone? You do lose 2 assasinate dc but gain a feat and wis to ac.

yes, but are you gonna give up your rapiers now that WOPs work in epic?

[Masadique]

Thanks for sticking your foot in your mouth for the world to see, but my monk didn't start with anything over 16 before racial adjustments (and the only thing over it after was, I think, dex at 17 since I'm currently stuck as a halfling and haven't TR'd yet -- waiting to see if monk is viable post the changes). Not everyone is a third life TR where the build points are a huge giant win for MAD classes. First lifers should be viable too, and needing 4 stats out of 6 is already close to too much.

The first lifer also isn't likely wandering around with a +3 tome, especially to a non-primary stat for their class. That shouldn't prevent them from tanking. Not to mention no taking till you're 21 (unless you found a magic feat slot at 20? No? Okay) to actually be able to tank, plus all the other CE stance issues (no PA, turning off on finishers -- or have they finally fixed that?).

Monk tanks have almost NEVER been viable for a first lifer. They need too many stats and too much gear. It's not just a meat sack with a shield. Monks require an insane amount of fine tuning. 2 build points is not the biggest deal in the world. It is hard to fit in I'll admit, but a first lifer drow monk wouldn't even have to spend them. Silly idea? Yes it is. Drow make bad tanks, so do most first life toons.

No taking until 21? I TRed and got PLs instead of grinding out more epic gear, since it will be replaced. New expansion is changing everything. I decided I would change with it so I am. PA was not an option for any first life pure monk tank. I don't know if you actually played one, but you'd be missing on anything above normal raids. Certainly wouldn't be hitting eBloodplate. PA is great for damage, tanks need to focus on staying alive in my opinion. If this weren't true, barbs would be the best tanks period. I do not know what this CE finisher bug is. I am curious now though. Does it prevent finishers?

Once again, I understand that most first life people will be unable to make a monk tank. I know they won't have +3 tomes. They also probably made a few mistakes making the toon that they will learn about while tanking or trying to. My first 2, ok all of my lives, have been riddled with failures that made me change how I played and made characters.

V

PS: What are the CE finisher bugs?

[Ape_Man]

Has anyone actually playtested Monks yet on Llama, or is this going to remain a pure speculation thread?


My 2cp:

1) Dodge - yes, I feel Monks should get some more dodge in some way, shape, or form. A base +dodge with their AC increments could work, as could a change to Air stance.
It doesn't make sense that Rogues and *Barbarians* are the dodgiest classes, when the guy who doesn't wear any armour at all doesn't get any latent dodge bonuses.

2) Stances - so far Earth stance was revised to add PRR. Devs could easily change the others as well - perhaps, as mentioned above, add +dodge to Air stance; +AC to Water stance; and ...I don't know, something else to Fire to make it actually attractive.

3) PRR - yeah, that's the only downside to being in pajamas, and where Monks may run into some serious issues. You're not good at absorbing hits. I guess that's what Earth stance is for, should you need it; otherwise, in a raid, you can rely on your healers to keep you up (and your FoL if light monk), and solo you have Wholeness as a full heal every 3 min or so which is far more than many other classes have.

I'd like to see some concrete evidence of Monks in epic content, however, and see how much of an issue this is before we continue shouting that the sky is falling when it may, in fact, not be....

I'm sorry, the other stances adding PRR is just stupid. Monks are supposed to be "dodgey" and that what should give the additional defense.

The below post, which has gotten no attention at all, solves these issues.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377700

[Enoach]

In my original assessment of the AC - Dodge - PRR, I was seeing the shift of Dexterity/Dodge enhancements from AC to an other section.

Placing Standards more along this line.

Tanks = High AC - Low to Moderate Dodge - High PRR
Non-Evasion Melee Mod to Heavy = Moderate to High AC - Low to Moderate Dodge - Moderate to High PRR
Evasion Light Armor = Moderate to High AC - High Dodge - Low PRR
Monks = Low to Moderate AC - Extremely High Dodge - Low PRR
Arcane Casters = Low AC - Low Dodge - Low PRR

I guess I missed something and need to re-read the changes. As I was still seeing Tank types dedicating slots to Dodge to fill their max dodge to decrease their chances of getting hit.

[Aalric]

Monks = Low to Moderate AC - Extremely High Dodge - Low PRR

the problem is, atm, with the present mechanics, a monk also has low dodge. Although in theory he could slot some more dodge in, it would still only give him medium dodge and would totally negate his dps - something a SD fighter no longer has to do

[Ape_Man]

the problem is, atm, with the present mechanics, a monk also has low dodge. Although in theory he could slot some more dodge in, it would still only give him medium dodge and would totally negate his dps - something a SD fighter no longer has to do

Problem solved: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377700

Support this idea.

[Masadique]

Problem solved: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=377700

Support this idea.

That doesn't really help monks. It just adds more dodge to all classes. The perk of some other ideas, wis/dex to dodge or just 1% dodge every other monk level, is that they give love to the class that needs it, monks, instead of spreading the love around and still leaving monks at the same dodge as everyone else. That idea would make wizards very very tanks, Insightful Reflexes now adds (let's assume 44 int which is low and soon to be lower) 11% dodge before the other reflex bonuses.

Monks need something which gives them dodge. Dodge doesn't need something which can also be used by monks. That or disregard the fact that monks should be different from other melee and let them pick up much more PRR/AC. Personally I would prefer monks just getting more dodge. Unfortunately it would have to be a rather sizable increase over other classes. Something closer to 20%, obviously at a cost, than 10%. This would allow for monks to quite easily reach dodge levels around 40%. Sounds awesome. Isn't as good as PRR/AC when straight up tanking. It will certainly be a fun challenge to figure out which EDs and feats will allow my monk to tank.

It'll be a trip, but a fun trip I'm sure.

V

[whomhead]

How does the DR10/lawful from being pure monk factor in to total damage mitigation, especially when combined with 20 prr from enhanced combat expertise and 15 more from earth IV? If comes out to 30% or so mitigation (purely guessing here), then that could still contribute pretty well to monk survival. When you add in misses from concealment, dodge and AC suddenly it starts to look like monks don't have to be glass cannons.

I'm just trying to find a silver lining here.

Total HP are still a problem, as I see it, even if the above does amount to significant mitigation. Bigger HP pool increases the time between heals and reduces the likelihood of those unavoidable moments (looking at you, lag beast!) where you roll badly a few times in a row and the raid wipes. My guess is that the solution to the HP problem will be going with Fury or Dreadnaught for epic destiny, then twisting tactically into the GoF destiny. Might even pick up some DPS while you're at it.

[RS-Makk]

yes, but are you gonna give up your rapiers now that WOPs work in epic?

Yikes.. they work in epic now?

[maddong]

I think pure monks will be ok.
You won't have as high of AC or physical resist as a heavy armor tank but you will get:
DR 10/epic
Up to 36% dodge (shadowdancer with 3 twists)
Much better AC than a monk splash
25% incorp (ninja spy > shadowdancer)

You can always get a source of displacement.

I do hate the new AC system because of the nerf to dex builds but I think you will get decent damage mitigation.

Monk splashes are screwed.

[Masadique]

How does the DR10/lawful from being pure monk factor in to total damage mitigation, especially when combined with 20 prr from enhanced combat expertise and 15 more from earth IV? If comes out to 30% or so mitigation (purely guessing here), then that could still contribute pretty well to monk survival. When you add in misses from concealment, dodge and AC suddenly it starts to look like monks don't have to be glass cannons.

I'm just trying to find a silver lining here.

Total HP are still a problem, as I see it, even if the above does amount to significant mitigation. Bigger HP pool increases the time between heals and reduces the likelihood of those unavoidable moments (looking at you, lag beast!) where you roll badly a few times in a row and the raid wipes. My guess is that the solution to the HP problem will be going with Fury or Dreadnaught for epic destiny, then twisting tactically into the GoF destiny. Might even pick up some DPS while you're at it.

Hadn't looked into Fury. It is cool too. All of these EDs are too ****ing interesting.

Fury - amazing autogrants, great damage, very minor defensive buffs outside of the +100 HP from autogrants.

Dread - good autogrants, great damage, moderate at best defensive buffs - few enough that twisting could eat them up. This could be great on Helves/Humans who can get damage boost without having to use epic AP. I think I'll end up twisting into this instead of doing it as the main.

Unyielding - great autogrants for any tank, pretty bad damage but high threat for agro, defensive is the name of the game here and it has plenty. It's a cool destiny, but using it as your main on a monk seems to be a stretch. Too many aspects of this ED simply don't mesh with a monk even if they do with a tank.

Flower Power - god I hate their autogrants, middle of the road DPS boosts, middle of the road defensive bonuses. I want this to be the obvious choice. It has such awesomely designed abilities. It augments stances. It's just monk too the max. Unfortunately, every time I look at it, I am underwhelmed by the options it would give to a monk tank outside of the earth stance augmentation, martial arts, and maybe that water stance passive. Dex and Wis are always nice, but almost every other ED has a way to get more AC than these stat boosts would provide.

It's looking like Fury or Dread will be the best tanking options for a nonshield user. Fury looks best to me right now, but that may change tomorrow. Not that it matters since we're still in beta.

So much reading...

V

[donblas]

Much better AC than a monk splash
.

LOL, not much of a recommendation! Almost anything will have!

[Masadique]

I think pure monks will be ok.
You won't have as high of AC or physical resist as a heavy armor tank but you will get:
DR 10/epic
Up to 36% dodge (shadowdancer with 3 twists)
Much better AC than a monk splash
25% incorp (ninja spy > shadowdancer)

I don't see any twistable dodge bonuses except for the 100% 2 minute cool down one. DR 10/epic is looking worse and worse the more I think about it. It may be good against trash but SURELY the EPIC bosses will count as epic. Then again, don't bring logic to a fist fight.

I am still confident that the devs will do something to increase dodge or AC for monks. We shall see.

V